Wagner's Ring
Posted by: Mike Hanson on 29 August 2000
I was at a friend's place last night, and he pulled out a boxed set of Wagner's Ring. It was the EMI version, with Furtwängler conducting. There seemed a few things odd about this:
1. It was 16 hours (13 CDs), and I though it was supposed to be longer.
2. It was missing "Tristan und Isolde".
3. Something in my distant memory tells me that Furtwängler didn't finish the ring.
So straighten me out: How long is the ring? Should it include T&I? Did Furtwängler do the full ryng cycle? Is this the best version, or are there other worth contenders? Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
Posted on: 29 August 2000 by Former member
1. It was 16 hours (13 CDs), and I though it was supposed to be longer.It's about 16 hours give or take and hour depending on the pace the conductor chooses.
2. It was missing "Tristan und Isolde".
Umm, it's not part of the Ring.
3. Something in my distant memory tells me that Furtwängler didn't finish the ring.
He finished recording two (the one you listened to and the La Scala performance, which I now have on mint vinyl), the third, with the Vienna Philharmonic, was only begun (one of the four operas released).
Vuk.
Posted on: 30 August 2000 by Mike Hanson
That clears up my confusion a bit. Please excuse my ignorance, but why is it called a ring, and why are the operas that were included included? Wagner isn't the only one with a ring, right? Is this a common thing, or only for a select few composers? Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
Posted on: 30 August 2000 by Former member
quote:
Please excuse my ignorance, but why is it called a ring, and why are the operas that were included included? Wagner isn't the only one with a ring, right? Is this a common thing, or only for a select few composers?
Mike,
I think what may be confusing you is that you've somehow developed the idea that the set of a composer's operas is referred to as a "ring"--like a symphonic "cylce." Not so. Wagner's is the "Ring" and the name derives from his set of 4 music dramas that follow one another called Der Ring Des Nibelungen (The Nibelung's Ring). They are meant to be performed on 4 consecutive evenings and the story/plot connects from one to the next.
As punishment for not knowing this, you must go out and buy the Furtwängler, then suffer through 13 consecutive CDs of mono sound. Hey, it could be worse: I could have sentenced you to Ross Blackman's favourite recording.
Wotan.
Posted on: 30 August 2000 by David Hobbs-Mallyon
Vuk,
Perhaps with time off for good behaviour the VPO/Furtwangler Walkure would be a better start for Mike.
David
Posted on: 30 August 2000 by Mike Hanson
I'm going to be borrowing the EMI Ring from my friend, so I'll be able to give it a listen. Although I prefer good quality recordings, it's not enough if the performance is bad. Yes, Vuk, I do listen to Furtwangler's WW-II renditions of Beethoven's 4-7th, and I even enjoy them too. In fact, I think I might put them on right now. Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
Posted on: 30 August 2000 by Former member
Mike.
I should warn you that EMI does not provide libretti in the set you are going to borrow, so you really should hunt those down first: it's will make going through the chore much more enjoyable the first time around.
Vuk.
Posted on: 30 August 2000 by Mike Hanson
I don't generally notice the lyrics in music (definitely less than 5% of the time). For me, the voice is usually just another instrument, albeit one which can produce an amazing variety of sounds. When you add that most operatic vocalists are unintelligible, I doubt whether having the libretti will make any difference to my listening enjoyment. For me, it's all music. Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
Posted on: 06 September 2000 by Phil Barry
It has been said that Beethoven could have said in 15 minutes what Wagner said in his whole life, but Beet didn't do it, because it wasn't worth saying.
It was pointed out that Webern wwould have been even quicker.
Posted on: 06 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
I understand what you're saying. However, Beethoven is also long-winded at times. For example, his 7th symphony could be 1/4 as long, without losing many of the musical ideas. Mahler includes the same kind of repetition in many of his symphonies.
The only major classical work that I've encountered that has been short and to the point is Prokofiev's 1st Symphony. It's very straightforward and succinct, yet expresses a wonderful range of musical motifs.
Then again, have you even listened to "Hey Jude"? Sometimes music is more about mood than musical motifs. Emotions can be repetitive, cyclical, slowly progressive, etc., and music often mimics that. I suppose if those types of emotions annoy you, then music based upon them would do the same. 
Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
Posted on: 07 September 2000 by Phil Barry
Mike,
I listen to a lot of Mahler, and I do like his music, but let's not mention him in the same breath as we mention Beethoven, ok?
As for your comment on Beethoven's 7th, I'm just speechless. Ah...I guess chacun a son gout....
Phil
Posted on: 07 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
Although I do think that Beethoven is "better" than Mahler, it's not by leaps and bounds. However, I tend to enjoy Mahler more than Beethoven, and don't ask me to explain why (because I don't really know).
BTW, Anton Webern was a ninny! 
Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on THURSDAY 07 September 2000 at 19:04.]
Posted on: 07 September 2000 by Former member
quote:
BTW, Anton Webern was a ninny!
Mike,
... No, I can't even say it. But you know what I am thinking.
Ross
Posted on: 25 September 2000 by Frank Abela
I have a vinyl copy of the digitally recorded live Pierre Boulez Ring. It's actually very good indeed, even if it is digital. However, I rarely play it through (last time was '96 I think). The whole thing is on something like 20 records, forty sides, and it's all left to the imagination. In some ways, hearing the singers move around the stage makes one wonder what exactly is going on. I mean, yes I know Wotan is hitting his spear on the rock to trap Brunnhilde but I can't actually
see it, and to me this is part of the operatic experience.
It's one of those things I really want on DVD, recorded live in full 7-channel glory such that the extra channels record the theatre acoustics giving me an almost live performance as a result. I might watch it more often then.
Regards,
Frank.
Posted on: 25 September 2000 by Ian P
quote :
______________________________________________________________________
It's one of those things I really want on DVD, recorded live in full 7-channel glory such that the extra channels record the theatre acoustics giving me an almost live performance as a result. I might watch it more often then
______________________________________________________________________
Frank,
Doesn't that earn you an automatic demotion to Camberley on Saturdays ?
Ian
Posted on: 25 September 2000 by Former member
live Pierre Boulez Ring ... I rarely play it through Frank.
This one is almost universally aknowledged to be the absolute worst Ring production of all time. I'll bet you even Ross agrees with me here. If you had Furtwängler, Krauss or Knappertsbusch conducting the playings would probably not be so rare.
Vuk.
Posted on: 27 September 2000 by Frank Abela
Thanks for that Vuk. I've just bought a Furtwangler record with bits from the Ring on it (y'know - stuff like the funeral march). If I like it, I might consider finding an alternative Ring.
However, I was serious about wanting the visual spectacle too. I think I'd rather that, provided it was well done. I recently bought the DVD of Turandot (Pavarotti, Milnes, La Scala) and was quite disappointed with it.
Regards,
Frank.
Posted on: 27 September 2000 by Former member
quote:
However, I was serious about wanting the visual spectacle too.
Well you're certainly out of luck there with the Ring. I'm actually a bit the opposite in this regard. Not that I don't enjoy the visual element, but it's so poorly done in most cases that I'd rather leave things to my imagination. That said, there are a few things well worth seeing and hearing. One is Zeffirelli's La Traviata, another is Bergman's Magic Flute. Both of these are brilliant films. For a more conventianal approach (filmed stage performance), I once saw Östman conduct Figaro on TV with the orchestra not only playing period instruments but dressed in period outfits/wigs (really bloody cool). I keep meaning to see if this is available for purchase (if you look and find it, please let me know; also let me know if you run into the %$tch who borrowed my Traviata and never returned it).
Vuk.
Posted on: 27 September 2000 by Former member
As my original post seems to have been deleted by the infopoop morons, I will reply again.
Vuk is right about the Boulez ring - unlistenable. He is also right about the Zeffirelli Traviata - a favourite of mine as well. I'm also fairly confident that the Ostman Figaro is available on video.
For a video version of the Ring, the Sawallisch set from the Munich opera is undoubtledly the best available, and is actually quite good in its own terms. It is certainly available on VHS (I have this version), but I don't think it is yet available on DVD.
Another favourite opera on video is Strauss' "Die Frau Ohne Schatten" from Vienna, conducted by Solti with a very good cast (apart from Eva Marton).
Ross
Posted on: 29 September 2000 by Frank Abela
I appreciate your comments a great deal and I shall keep an eye out for your recommendations. Incidentally, I have listened to my (new) old Furtwangler record. I'll admit it has a certain something. He has an almost vice-like grip on the orchestra (like Reiner did later on), which is not something I like particularly. However, he paces the music much more lyrically than Reiner ever dreamt, so it's still interesting. I'm trying to decide if Furt' really is my cup of tea. I think so...but then again...
Regards,
Frank.
