The Official Euro 2004 Thread

Robbie said:

"Holland is a bunch of overpaid players not a team."

and Nick Lees said:

"Germany vs Holland - the big question: who will the Dutch fight first, themselves or the Germans?"

Must be wild being a Dutch international footballer. Scorned by your own supporters and resented by your team mates.

Wild.

JonR

A moral victory for England tonight I felt. James barely had a save to make for 90 minutes, England looked consistantly threatening going forward, Gerrard neutralised Viera, Pires, Trezueget and Henry did *nothing* and were easily controlled. In the dressing room the England players are thinking "We won that game" the French playters are thinking "We got out of jail".

So England can take great heart from this and go into the rest of the tournament without any fear and a great deal of confidence. We outplayed the best side in the world for 91 minutes and I would be confident of beating them should we mett them again later in the tournament.

Matthew

I totally agree.

I couldn't believe that James made such a stupid attempt at hacking the attacker (sorry didn't get his name as one hundred people stood up in my way) to cause the penalty. Jesus, the ball was going way out.

I thought Rooney played brilliantly and inspirational. Beckham's penalty was poor, Zidane's was superb.

I'm still gutted.

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
A moral victory for England tonight I felt. James barely had a save to make for 90 minutes, England looked consistantly threatening going forward, Gerrard neutralised Viera, Pires, Trezueget and Henry did *nothing* and were easily controlled. In the dressing room the England players are thinking "We won that game" the French playters are thinking "We got out of jail".

So England can take great heart from this and go into the rest of the tournament without any fear and a great deal of confidence. We outplayed the best side in the world for 91 minutes and I would be confident of beating them should we mett them again later in the tournament.

Matthew

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We appear to have been watching different games. In the game I saw England barely hung on for much of the time and to say that you outplayed them for 91 minutes is frankly puzzling to me. I don't really think you should take too much comfort as Zidane and Henry are unlikely to be as invisible next time.

Rooney was excellent and will be a major international for the nest 15 years. Plus Lampard, Gerrard and Scholes all had good games and the somewhat patched up defence looked very solid.

I also think its great that we have gone from being a side defined by David Beckham to one where he is merely just the bloke hwo does a good job on right side of midfield. Compare this to France who are still almost completely dependent on Zidane.

Matthew

I agree that Rooney looks like a prospect but think he's about to go through a critical period.
He's going to have to watch his temperament and weight. If he's as beefy as this at 18 (?) what's he going to be like at 25? He needs a really strong manager to get the temper and physique under control.

"to say that you outplayed them for 91 minutes is frankly puzzling to me"

If you don't think England "won" that game and plyaed the better then you obviously dont watch much football and dont really understand the game. For all their pressure France never looked like scoring -- the pub I was in the punters were basically talking amongst themselves the second half as France spent 45 mins passing it around and then booting it into the stands/passing it to an English defender before they got very lucky with two late set pieces coming from English mistakes.

Matthew

Matthew

We didn't outplay them at all.

We did ok in the first half upto about 20 minutes but then France took over. We scored the goal and were lucky to go in 1-0 ahead at half time.

In the second half we were totally and comprehensively outplayed. I know it's tough conceding the goals in that particular fashion, but if those goals had gone in 20 minutes earlier we'd have gone on to lose by 5.

You are confusing having posession with outplaying someone. They never looked like scoring and I can barely rememeber a shot they had on target or a save James had to make. I thought England were much more likely to score than France the second half and we should have done.

Oh and of course Silvestre should have been sent off.

Matthew

Just to play devil's advocate, couldn't one say that this game could wake France up, and make England overconfident?

FWIW I found an Irish pub in Seattle that's showing every game by satellite. In fact they had a full page ad in the weekly hipster rag! Thank god for the Irish- they always seem to spread the love to all corners of the globe!

quote:

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
"to say that you outplayed them for 91 minutes is frankly puzzling to me"

If you don't think England "won" that game and plyaed the better then you obviously dont watch much football and dont really understand the game. For all their pressure France never looked like scoring -- the pub I was in the punters were basically talking amongst themselves the second half as France spent 45 mins passing it around and then booting it into the stands/passing it to an English defender before they got very lucky with two late set pieces coming from English mistakes.

Matthew

Matthew

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I dont think England "won" for the simple reason that they "lost". Get used to it. Even the commentary team agreed that you were on the ropes for much of the game and that the better team won.

Nevermind the goodness of the Irish. They're charging $20 per person to watch each game.

Snore...............................


Same old "We lost, but somehow we will make it feel right by justifying losing bullshit"

Oh dear - time to start slating the Scots for inventing things but never winning.......

A very cruel defeat. I watched on pay per view, on my own, and to my astonishment found myself cheering for England.

The defence was outstanding, but there were some real problems, including:
* What was Erickson doing with his substitutions? I can see taking off Owen and Rooney (but not Scholes); I can't see Heskey or Hargreaves as being worth a place.
* Despite what seems to be the consensus, Gerrard is the most extravagantly overrated player in England. I've been watching and waiting all season to see what the fuss is about. Today he covered a lot of ground to no effect whatsoever. I don't agree that he kept a lid on the French midfield. And the pass through to Thierry Henry was a shocking, schoolboy-level blunder.
* Heskey's tackle was typical of this oaf. How does he get a game?
* You can't, can't, can't miss penalties.

And Matthew, I can understand your disappointment, but there's no way you can claim it as a victory, moral or otherwise. England threw it away with basic errors before the final whistle.

Best,
Davie

Ouch - for 91 minutes the defence was pretty good. France did not have many good chances until Heskey got stuck in. Why on earth was he brought on? And of all people to try a back pass at the end. Aaagh.

A few thoughts:

I thought Ledley King/Sol Campbell played well as did Gerrard/Lampard. Rooney would be my England man of the match but, as said earlier, he's got to get to grips with his elbows (temperment). Beckham should have done better with the penalty. Perhaps if he remains at Madrid he can take lessons.

I thought Scholes had a poor game and Owen was largely marked out of the game.

As for France - in the first half Henry was anonymous. Santini's tactics seemed to be playing him up front as a target man which doesn't work. He became more effective later in the second half when he started dropping back to pick up the ball. Pires looked effective in the first half on the right but disappeared in the second half. Zidane had one of his quiter games but still scored twice (great free kick, great penalty). Viera had a good game - man of the match? Makelele did not convince.

I did not catch Croatia/Switzerland so do not really know what to expect...

Mike

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Originally posted by MichaelC:
I did not catch Croatia/Switzerland so do not really know what to expect...
Mike

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Another glorious defeat ?

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What was Erickson doing with his substitutions? I can see taking off Owen and Rooney (but not Scholes)

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I think he took Scholes off because he had been booked and France never looked like doing anything anyway.

quote:

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And Matthew, I can understand your disappointment, but there's no way you can claim it as a victory, moral or otherwise. England threw it away with basic errors before the final whistle.

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England outplayed France for the majority of the match. France are rated as the favourites and so this does give us a moral victory. Two basic errors in the first match doesn't knock us out of the championships.

long-time-dead and TomK,

I have no idea what your idea or problem is, but I have noticed that you seem to revel in the abuse of the England team's defeat. You have started your own thread to enjoy this and I ask you to stick to that. Please leave this thread alone as it appears no one here is interested in your comments.

Thanks in advance.

Oops

No one interested apart from count.d........

quote:

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Originally posted by count.d:
England outplayed France for the majority of the match. France are rated as the favourites and so this does give us a moral victory.

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Count:

England played well for much of the game, and probably deserved a point. But as a (relative) neutral who has been following the game for 40 years, I can assure you they certainly did not outplay the French for any extended periods.

And, as someone posted on football365, there are few things more unprofessional than a late collapse.

Nevertheless, you have my commiserations (whatever that's worth). It's always painful to lose, and even more so the way it happened today.

Regards,
Davie

quote:

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Originally posted by Bhoyo:
A very cruel defeat. I watched on pay per view, on my own, and to my astonishment found myself cheering for England.

The defence was outstanding, but there were some real problems, including:
* What was Erickson doing with his substitutions? I can see taking off Owen and Rooney (but not Scholes); I can't see Heskey or Hargreaves as being worth a place.
* Despite what seems to be the consensus, Gerrard is the most extravagantly overrated player in England. I've been watching and waiting all season to see what the fuss is about. Today he covered a lot of ground to no effect whatsoever. I don't agree that he kept a lid on the French midfield. And the pass through to Thierry Henry was a shocking, schoolboy-level blunder.
* Heskey's tackle was typical of this oaf. How does he get a game?
* You can't, can't, can't miss penalties.

And Matthew, I can understand your disappointment, but there's no way you can claim it as a victory, moral or otherwise. England threw it away with basic errors before the final whistle.

Best,
Davie

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Agree with most of that. Gerrard probably is overrated but still good if you see what I mean. Ironic that Scholes was taken off for his propensity to chop opponents down in dangerous positions and in lumbers Big Em. I thought Hargreaves did OK.

I would say France "huffed and puffed" without actually creating any chances of note. Good cynical tournament teams like Germany and Italy will fancy France I recon. Vierra was awesome though.

Hopefully England will bounce back but that may have knocked the stuffing out of us. We shall see. First decent game of the tournament. Can't wait for Germany Holland.

On the commentary, nice to see Clive Bloody Tyldsley is as irritating as ever. I wonder if he draws any parallels with "That Night in Barcelona" (TM). Uncle Bobby was excellent though.

quote:

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Originally posted by count.d:
long-time-dead and TomK,

I have no idea what your idea or problem is, but I have noticed that you seem to revel in the abuse of the England team's defeat. You have started your own thread to enjoy this and I ask you to stick to that. Please leave this thread alone as it appears no one here is interested in your comments.

Thanks in advance.

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All my posts on this thread have been completely objective but initially received the "you don't agree with me so you know what you're talking about" and now your "I don't like what you're saying so fuck off" response.


Let's change this thread's title to "English excuses for being the football world's biggest ever under achieving loud mouths" shall we?

Isn't it lovely to see big arrogant smug ignorant bastards getting a finger in the eye?

Bhoyo,

"Despite what seems to be the consensus, Gerrard is the most extravagantly overrated player in England"

As a midfield player he absolutely has it all -- he is quick, very strong, tackles well fantastic stamina, gets into the box and scores, has a powerful accurate shot, strong in the air and has a full range of passing. He is every bit as good as the benchmarks Viera and Keane were at his age and arguably better as he can hit a ball 60 yards and land it on a coke can which neither of those two could. He's only 23 and, by common consent, would get into any national side in the world.

As for yesterdays performance, the way England played he was asked to "sit in" to accomdate the essentially attacking only Lampard which takes away half his game. He was also up against the very best central midfield player in the world.

"I can understand your disappointment, but there's no way you can claim it as a victory, moral or otherwise"

I genuinely thought England deserved to win the game. We out fought them and most of their big players did nothing at all (was Henry even on the pitch?). France didn't remotely look like scoring for 90 minutes, which is, lest we forget, the point of the game. The only clear cut chance I can remember them creating in 90 minutes was Trezuget's 1st half header and if Italy had put in that perfomance the critics would be purring about the joys of Catenaccio.

Of course France are a better side than England and have better players. But, much like Greece against Portugal, England played well enough to win and deserved the victory. Compare this performance to the 1-0 victory aginst Argentina in the last world cup when England "won" but "lost" as they were obviously outplayed and really did hang on for dear life -- the contrast between those games makes my point rather well I think.

Matthew

PS Of course you can always listen to Zidane:

"It was not going our way but in the end it's a very positive result. We suffered but overturned the situation."

Zidane admitted his injury-time double strike - which turned the game on its head - had come out of the blue.

"We had not had a good match and then came a little bit of a surprise at the end," he added.

PPS Silvestre should have been sent off.

Matthew:

Have you read Richard Williams in The Grauniad? He begins: England nearly earned a reward for sheer guts and persistence in Lisbon last night, which is a nice thing to be able to say after the way they caved in to Brazil's 10 men in their last match at a big tournament. But anyone who believes that France did not deserve their victory in this curiously emotional match was probably watching the game through a pair of lenses painted with the flag of St George.

That's how it looked to me too.

And I accept what you say about Gerrard. Many other people say the same thing (including Williams in The Grauniad!). But I simply haven't seen that myself. His back pass was unforgivable.

ZZ is saying France weren't at their best, not that they stole the game. And he's wrong: France did not "overturn the situation." England gifted the game to them.

BTW, you do realise that I'm writing this as a football fan, not as a gloating Scotsman.

All the best,
Davie

Davie,

Richard Williams is an idiot and it was a sad day for the Grauniad Sport section when they paid him a fortune to leave the Indy. His article was classic ill-informed broadsheet sports (note sports not football) writer in football-wank mode. It's the same mindset that insists that Real Madrid are a great side when they are patently rubbish.

"His back pass was unforgivable"

And also uncharateritic. We are all allowed our mistakes I think.

"BTW, you do realise that I'm writing this as a football fan, not as a gloating Scotsman"

Of course. That's why I replied as a football fan rather than a disconsolate Englishman.

Matthew