The Official Euro 2004 Thread

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Originally posted by MichaelC:
I did not catch Croatia/Switzerland so do not really know what to expect...
Mike

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Another glorious defeat ?

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What was Erickson doing with his substitutions? I can see taking off Owen and Rooney (but not Scholes)

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I think he took Scholes off because he had been booked and France never looked like doing anything anyway.

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And Matthew, I can understand your disappointment, but there's no way you can claim it as a victory, moral or otherwise. England threw it away with basic errors before the final whistle.

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England outplayed France for the majority of the match. France are rated as the favourites and so this does give us a moral victory. Two basic errors in the first match doesn't knock us out of the championships.

long-time-dead and TomK,

I have no idea what your idea or problem is, but I have noticed that you seem to revel in the abuse of the England team's defeat. You have started your own thread to enjoy this and I ask you to stick to that. Please leave this thread alone as it appears no one here is interested in your comments.

Thanks in advance.

Oops

No one interested apart from count.d........

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Originally posted by count.d:
England outplayed France for the majority of the match. France are rated as the favourites and so this does give us a moral victory.

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Count:

England played well for much of the game, and probably deserved a point. But as a (relative) neutral who has been following the game for 40 years, I can assure you they certainly did not outplay the French for any extended periods.

And, as someone posted on football365, there are few things more unprofessional than a late collapse.

Nevertheless, you have my commiserations (whatever that's worth). It's always painful to lose, and even more so the way it happened today.

Regards,
Davie

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Originally posted by Bhoyo:
A very cruel defeat. I watched on pay per view, on my own, and to my astonishment found myself cheering for England.

The defence was outstanding, but there were some real problems, including:
* What was Erickson doing with his substitutions? I can see taking off Owen and Rooney (but not Scholes); I can't see Heskey or Hargreaves as being worth a place.
* Despite what seems to be the consensus, Gerrard is the most extravagantly overrated player in England. I've been watching and waiting all season to see what the fuss is about. Today he covered a lot of ground to no effect whatsoever. I don't agree that he kept a lid on the French midfield. And the pass through to Thierry Henry was a shocking, schoolboy-level blunder.
* Heskey's tackle was typical of this oaf. How does he get a game?
* You can't, can't, can't miss penalties.

And Matthew, I can understand your disappointment, but there's no way you can claim it as a victory, moral or otherwise. England threw it away with basic errors before the final whistle.

Best,
Davie

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Agree with most of that. Gerrard probably is overrated but still good if you see what I mean. Ironic that Scholes was taken off for his propensity to chop opponents down in dangerous positions and in lumbers Big Em. I thought Hargreaves did OK.

I would say France "huffed and puffed" without actually creating any chances of note. Good cynical tournament teams like Germany and Italy will fancy France I recon. Vierra was awesome though.

Hopefully England will bounce back but that may have knocked the stuffing out of us. We shall see. First decent game of the tournament. Can't wait for Germany Holland.

On the commentary, nice to see Clive Bloody Tyldsley is as irritating as ever. I wonder if he draws any parallels with "That Night in Barcelona" (TM). Uncle Bobby was excellent though.

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Originally posted by count.d:
long-time-dead and TomK,

I have no idea what your idea or problem is, but I have noticed that you seem to revel in the abuse of the England team's defeat. You have started your own thread to enjoy this and I ask you to stick to that. Please leave this thread alone as it appears no one here is interested in your comments.

Thanks in advance.

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All my posts on this thread have been completely objective but initially received the "you don't agree with me so you know what you're talking about" and now your "I don't like what you're saying so fuck off" response.


Let's change this thread's title to "English excuses for being the football world's biggest ever under achieving loud mouths" shall we?

Isn't it lovely to see big arrogant smug ignorant bastards getting a finger in the eye?

Bhoyo,

"Despite what seems to be the consensus, Gerrard is the most extravagantly overrated player in England"

As a midfield player he absolutely has it all -- he is quick, very strong, tackles well fantastic stamina, gets into the box and scores, has a powerful accurate shot, strong in the air and has a full range of passing. He is every bit as good as the benchmarks Viera and Keane were at his age and arguably better as he can hit a ball 60 yards and land it on a coke can which neither of those two could. He's only 23 and, by common consent, would get into any national side in the world.

As for yesterdays performance, the way England played he was asked to "sit in" to accomdate the essentially attacking only Lampard which takes away half his game. He was also up against the very best central midfield player in the world.

"I can understand your disappointment, but there's no way you can claim it as a victory, moral or otherwise"

I genuinely thought England deserved to win the game. We out fought them and most of their big players did nothing at all (was Henry even on the pitch?). France didn't remotely look like scoring for 90 minutes, which is, lest we forget, the point of the game. The only clear cut chance I can remember them creating in 90 minutes was Trezuget's 1st half header and if Italy had put in that perfomance the critics would be purring about the joys of Catenaccio.

Of course France are a better side than England and have better players. But, much like Greece against Portugal, England played well enough to win and deserved the victory. Compare this performance to the 1-0 victory aginst Argentina in the last world cup when England "won" but "lost" as they were obviously outplayed and really did hang on for dear life -- the contrast between those games makes my point rather well I think.

Matthew

PS Of course you can always listen to Zidane:

"It was not going our way but in the end it's a very positive result. We suffered but overturned the situation."

Zidane admitted his injury-time double strike - which turned the game on its head - had come out of the blue.

"We had not had a good match and then came a little bit of a surprise at the end," he added.

PPS Silvestre should have been sent off.

Matthew:

Have you read Richard Williams in The Grauniad? He begins: England nearly earned a reward for sheer guts and persistence in Lisbon last night, which is a nice thing to be able to say after the way they caved in to Brazil's 10 men in their last match at a big tournament. But anyone who believes that France did not deserve their victory in this curiously emotional match was probably watching the game through a pair of lenses painted with the flag of St George.

That's how it looked to me too.

And I accept what you say about Gerrard. Many other people say the same thing (including Williams in The Grauniad!). But I simply haven't seen that myself. His back pass was unforgivable.

ZZ is saying France weren't at their best, not that they stole the game. And he's wrong: France did not "overturn the situation." England gifted the game to them.

BTW, you do realise that I'm writing this as a football fan, not as a gloating Scotsman.

All the best,
Davie

Davie,

Richard Williams is an idiot and it was a sad day for the Grauniad Sport section when they paid him a fortune to leave the Indy. His article was classic ill-informed broadsheet sports (note sports not football) writer in football-wank mode. It's the same mindset that insists that Real Madrid are a great side when they are patently rubbish.

"His back pass was unforgivable"

And also uncharateritic. We are all allowed our mistakes I think.

"BTW, you do realise that I'm writing this as a football fan, not as a gloating Scotsman"

Of course. That's why I replied as a football fan rather than a disconsolate Englishman.

Matthew

Matthew:

What the hell are you doing up at such an ungodly hour?

Davie

Matthew,

We only outplayed France in an Alamo sense. A heroic defence ultimately overwhelmed.

The defence did play extremely well, but Gerrard had a stinker by his standards even if you disregard the final moment of madness. Apart from a few isolated raids prompted by individuals (well done Rooney) there were far too many hopeful punts upfield to our big men up front....errr Owen and Rooney.

nick.lees at btinternet.com

A draw would be more justified but the english team lost their head in the last minutes. After Beckham missed the penalty all went downwards for the english. The french pressure made some english players loose their head (Rooney=the new Gascoigne?).Why didn't Alex Gerrard shoot the ball out of the stadium instead of taking such a risk?
Enfin, looking forward for Holland vs. Germany.

Rob.

"What the hell are you doing up at such an ungodly hour?"

I woke up at 4am in need of several gallons of water (must be the hot weather?) and couldn't get back to sleep.

Another quote for you, from Radio 5 this morning:

"If I was an England player waking up this morning I would feel nothing but positive about how well we played", Alan Hansen, a non-gloating Football loving Scotch

Matthew

Good gwief, my teddy stopped breathing when the ref missed that English handball.

Baron Von Tossedofftheruinedpole

England played well in that Dunkirk style - we withstood the seige. We didn't create much.

Rooney was terrific as was the defence.

France played poorly and got out of jail - The really really good teams have a knack of playing poorly and still winning.

When it came to the crunch, our key man Beckham failed, Zidance converted when given the oppurtunity.

It will be interesting to see how England bounce back against the 2 'lesser' teams in the group in the knowledge that winning is now the only option.

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
A moral victory for England tonight I felt.

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Originally posted by count.d:
Please leave this thread alone as it appears no one here is interested in your comments.

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Wrong.

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
Alan Hansen, a non-gloating Football loving Scotch__

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Alan Hansen is an arsehole.

German football commentators can at times be incredibly annoying with their
comments especially where England is involved and last nights game was no
exception. At half and full time though the analysis as on british tv
is generally done by more competent professionals. Günther netzer and Franz
Beckenbauer were both very surprised at Beckham's decision to take the penalty
himself ? and the luck of not conceding a penantly in the first half due to the
indisputable hand ball was put down to German refereeing.
Although 1966 is rarely
mentioned these days, with Sept 1, 2001 in München far outwaying it, I did
notice an exceptional respect for the English team. The only relevance now to
the last game is the points won by Lampard's goal, the rest is history. The
Swiss - Croatia games produced more yeller's than a Chinese Quartemaster's
store, and should be taken as a warning that will test Roonaldo amongst other's
tempers to the limit, as Croatia have nothing to lose.
I was reminded that
England actually qualified by the skin of their teeth anyway, and if they happen
to lose against either of those other two teams, they should fuck off back home
pronto, innit.

Fritz Von Livingintherealworld ?

Disappointing is the only word that I would apply to this result. Disappointing but not disasterous. 1-2 is not a bad result against the best team in the competition.

England now have a good chance of finishing above Switzerland and Croatia - they only have 1 point each and neither team looked like they were up to much.

The only real negative is that England will probably have to play the winners of Group A (Spain?) rather than the second placed team. However, the positive will come if they play France in the final. I don't think they would have beaten France twice but, having lost, they could do better next time round.

I'm looking forward to today's games. I understand that Italy can be a bit useful.

Steve Margolis
defy convention - make music

Please, let a frenchman express his point af view...

England played well. Their defence was outstanding during the first 90 minutes. French had no solutions to shoot (remind Henry's poor shoots). But the final result was really surprising for me.

Honestly, the handkerchieves were already in my hand when...

I am dreaming of a final opposing England to France ! For what I saw, England should beat Croatia and Switzerland easily. Nothing is lost for England, as nothing is won for France.

Regards

Etienne

Pride

I felt England completely outplayed France. Very compact in midfield and defence. Dangerous on the break and Rooney was great. Owen worryingly was a passenger. The way they played was a testament to Sven's tactics but also their downfall. I think they played like an Italy team of the 90s but ended up conceding too much possession and allowed France to get back into it. I would keep King for next game but am worried about Owen. Mad though this will seem I even envisage a role for Heskey, holding up the ball and allowing Rooney more space. If Gerrard can step it up to the level hes capable of over next few matches England can win the thing.

John