The Official Euro 2004 Thread

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Originally posted by Bhoyo:

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Originally posted by Nick Lees:
Edited to insert nonsense.

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So can one of youse Ing-uh-lish explain why Ledley King, after not putting a foot wrong against France, is dropped for Terry (who still looks like the Welshman in Coupling)?

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Terry played consistently well, at centre back, for a team that got to the Champions League semis. King played midfield in an sh*t team that should have been relegated. Terry is less of a risk. Either way the back four is the least of our worries.

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:

Also this quartet, largely due to Sven's reluctance to abandon Nicky Butt, have hardly played together. There is much more to come and work to do on the training ground (this is where Sven has to add value if he really is any good) but the drop off from this four to Dywer and Hargreaves is so huge that I doubt much will be gained from switching things around.

Overall England's problem is that they only bat down to 11 and after the first choice we are quickly into very average (at best) players like Heskey and Dywer. That could well be our downfall and I can see us struggling if we have to come from behind and win a game late on. We really lack any sort of game changer from the bench and are really just replacing one player with a worse version when the better one gets tired.

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I am worried we are falling into the Real Madrid trap of playing all our 'galacticos' just because we feel we have to. Scholes, Lampard and Gerrard are attacking central midfielders who have the freedom to go forward because of Keane, Makalele and Hamman doing the tidying up at club level. When Hargreaves came on in the centre and Gerrard moved to the left I thought we looked better. Square pegs in round holes and all that.

"This is a bit of a self-perpetuating myth"

It is a theory largely built on gut instinct and, arguably, needs updating as he seems a much improved and more consistent player with Villa than he was.

"something that Vuk commented on when he was dropped for subsequent games"

Vuk also think Terry Henry is no good and Savo Milosevic is the second coming of Gerd Muller.

(Although if you don't watch Henry's club games that's not that crazy a theory)

Matthew

"I am worried we are falling into the Real Madrid trap of playing all our 'galacticos' just because we feel we have to"

The big difference for England is the huge drop off from the four we have to the replacement option. If we had a player of Hamman's quality to do that job then I might the theory but currently I reckon Gerrard is better in that holding role than any of the alternatives.

"Scholes, Lampard and Gerrard are attacking central midfielders who have the freedom to go forward because of Keane, Makalele and Hamman"

That's a little black and white I reckon and the players concerned are much more varied.

Scholes is not really a midfield player at all as he cannot tackle at all (at least not within the laws of the game) and plays almost exclusively in the final third. He is really a "point guard" player in the style of #10s through the years.

Lampard is a midfield player who's attacking game is much superior to his defensive game, but at least he does have a defensive game.

Gerrard is an genuine two-way, box-to-box midfielder who is physically capable of providing defensive cover in games against the stronger sides. He is less of a defensive player than the modern archetypes Viera and Keane but he is no slouch (and offers much more in terms of passing and going forward than those too).

I have no doubt this is our best four by some distance and short of an outstanding defensive specialist I don't see huge advantages in changing. It's up to Sven to solve the problem of how to get them to play well together and how to balance the tactics so we don't get overrun but still have enough possession and options going forward. That's why we pay him £5m quid.

Matthew

If any of you were Sven, would you drop Beckham. He really does not look 100% fit. Surely he is putting a bit of a burden on Gary Chuckle by not being up with the pace of the game.

Not so long ago you could say that Beckham covered every blade of grass but not so at the moment. Even Scholes looks a bit lost at the moment. If it was down to me my midfield 4 would be... Dyer, Hargreaves, Lampard, Gerrard.

Just my 2p worth.

Steve

The interesting thing for me about Euro 2004 is that only two things stand out. The first is the poor refereeing (time has even caught up with Collina who showed that his stinker in the Champions league semi was not a one off). The second is that there are only two sorts of teams competing - those who are well organised but little else and those who have attacking flair but little else.

As I Welshman I remain on the sidelines but perpetually bemused by the Englsih belief that they have world class players or a world class team. What they really have is a midfield with absolutely no defensive or holding players and a defence that is solid in the middle but weak on the flanks with an unrelaiable keeper. That's not forgetting a manager whose belief in the long ball game has diminished only slightly over the years and whose football philosophy increasingly appears to centre around the idea of England defending by basically having their poor midfield defensive four stay where they are and play long balls to fairly isolated front players. Two wins in nine months. That's Euro 2004 winning form is that!!!

Having said that, whilst the majority of the big guns always struggle in the early stages, it is predictable that most will be there at the end and, in that respect, England have as good a chance as any. That doesn't make them a good team though. It's just a poor tournament.

In more detail...

Rooney clearly works better off Vassell whilst Owens' loss of pace now exposes the limitations of the rest of his game.

Beckham, Lampard, Scholes and especially Gerrard are horrendously one footed and whilst Lampard can at least tackle he only does so when breaking forward which leaves you with very little when England lose the ball and thus explains long periods of French pressure and Swiss chances.

At the back I am constantly amused by Cole's inability to be where he should be when attacks break down and at set pieces and I wonder when we will see Gary Neville go to tackle for the ball along the touchline without his first approach to a player being around his waist or above his knee.

It will be interesting to see how they progress.

Considering the potential of a Scholes, Beckham, Gerrard, Lampard midfield - it just is'nt working so far :
Scholes is too right footed and his tackling is poor.
Beckham does not look fit
Lampard & Gerrard look muted when going forward.

Apart from Rooney's perfomances I don't think England have had much to cheer.
The FA need to get the correct videos of Prso out for Campbell and Terry to watch.
Sven needs to start Vassel and put Owen on the bench if he's got the balls.

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I have been really disappointed in Beckham so far, and I think Steve is right - he isn't fit (surely, he can't be). That said, a 75% fit Beckham is still better than the options available, assuming he has sufficiently energetic players around him.
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Its not that he's not fit, I thinks its more to do with spending a year out on Spain. Beckham is now playing out of position and forgotten how to play at the English pace.

I thought the whole side looked tired and lacklustre last night and I don't think anyone has a clue about leaderhip. For example who saw the French "huddle" last night and Zidane take authority. The whole side lack leadership from the manager down.

I hope they can find a bit more enthusiasm for the Craotia game because on last nights showing I can see us getting beaten.

Regards


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Originally posted by Patrick Dixon:

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Either way the back four is the least of our worries.

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You've got to be kidding: Ashley Cole and Gary Neville are alway going to be capable of giving away a penalty at a crucial moment, neither has much defensive positional sense and Neville's not too quick either. Plus he and Beckham seem to have forgotten that they played together on the right for years ...

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Good points, but I am _more_ worried about Calamity James, the form of Owen and Beckham, our inability to string 3 passes together and the temparement of young Shrek.

I think to some extent Bobby 'Grandpa Simpson' Robson summed it up nicely when he said there is nobody on the field who shouts and stamps a bit of authority on the game.

Maybe thats what Gerrard should do on his path to being the perfect player. Have a bit of a shout during games. CLearly Beckham does not do it and to some extent shouldn't a captain assume that responsibility?

Steve

Maybe its time to make Gerrard captain.

"As I Welshman I remain on the sidelines but perpetually bemused by the Englsih belief that they have world class players or a world class team"

Mike, as a half English/Welshman I am perpetually bemused by the, seemingly widespread, belief that 'The English' (TM) believe that they have world class players or a world class team. We don't!

England v Croatia is going to be a tougher one than expected from the first game. I think it also showed that we sat back and gave far too much respect to France when we played them.

Scholes does look a little lost out there on the left and Beckham seems to be asleep over on the right. I am surprised at the lack of interplay between Beckham and Neville, but as others have stated this is our best midfield, my only possible change would be trying Hargreaves instead of Scholes on the left.

As for upfront Owen is a proven striker at the top level and I thik we should stick with him. He lost control of the ball a few times yesterday, but he did also supply an inch perfect cross/chip in to Rooney for the first goal. Vassel has looked good coming on late, but for now I thikn we should stick with Owen.

If we are to get anywhere near winning this thing Owen and Beckham are going to have to wake up and I thikn either J. Cole or Dyer may have to come on and start playing to thier potential to break down some of the better teams.

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Originally posted by Two-Sheds:
If we are to get anywhere near winning this thing Owen and Beckham are going to have to wake up and I thikn either J. Cole or Dyer may have to come on and start playing to thier potential to break down some of the better teams.

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Have you seen how often the clearly talented J Cole gives the ball every week for Chelsea. He tries to hard to do it on his own and 9 times out of 10 ends up losing the ball.

I don't think he is the answer. Dyer would be better that J Cole at the moment. He has pace and more importantly is not affraid to use it. In the games so far nobody has really attacked the opposition full back apart from Rooney against France and ultimately that lead to a penalty.

Steve

I agree with Two-Sheds.

Apart from the bit about Joe Cole who has played so little this year that he has gone backwards as a player and should not even be in the squad. Kind of ironic given that he signed for Chelsea to further his England career.

"but perpetually bemused by the Englsih belief that they have world class players or a world class team"

"World class" is a bit vague but it seems obvious to me that (current loss of form aside) Owen, Beckham, Campbell and Gerrard can all claim to be players of the highest quality and Rooney is getting there. Players like Lampard and Scholes are solid good quality international players.

As I said earlier England's big problem compared to other teams is not the first XI but the big drop off after that.

Matthew

[This message was edited by Matthew Robinson on Fri 18 June 2004 at 14:24.]

I think Bobby Robson talks some great sense in his commentary - In the France game he correctly stated that we (england) could not just lump the ball out of defence for the entire second half and expect to get away with it.
I also think he has a very fair point regarding leadership on the pitch.

So much better than some of the prats TV have as co-commentators who add absolutely nothing to our viewing pleasure.

I would however just loved to have heard Ron Atkinson's 'off air' views of Marcel Desailly's non clearance last night

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
Vuk also think Terry Henry is no good ... (Although if you don't watch Henry's club games that's not that crazy a theory)

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Known - affectionately, one gathers - as Titi by the French. Thierry that is, not Vuk.

Davie

And Viera is apparently known as "Le Grande Saucisson" to his teamates as well.

Which presumably means he has at least one thing in common with Dion Dublin.

Matthew

Just a quick note on what has to THE most boring game so far: Bulgaria - Denmark:

Ughhh!

Zlatan..., as I said

Good call, Bjorne. I thought Mr. I. was looking like a donkey until that amazing goal, so what the hell do I know.

It was a truly great game - the first one so far, for my money.

Italy look so good when they decide to go forward. Del Piero is still the business; Panucci played a blinder; even that little thug Gattuso was impressive (for a former Hun, that is). But how many times have we seen them try to defend a one-goal lead and come unstuck? And deservedly so.

It also delighted me to see some Celtic jerseys among the fans. Who do you think they were supporting?

Well played, Sverige.

Davie

Italy played the first half brilliantly (except for their finishing). The second half wasn't bad, but the lucky Swedish luckily flicked a lucky back flick into the goal.

Italy are the best team yet in this championships.

It was a very enjoyable game and Ibrahmovic provided the tournement's first glorious moment of pure instinctive genius. I hope Sweden and Denmark can manufacture a Germany/Austria situation and do for the Italians.

Matthew

PS <JockoBaiting>I see Larsson when asked to play against a defence better than Partick Thistle did nothing</JockoBaiting>

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
PS <JockoBaiting>I see Larsson when asked to play against a defence better than Partick Thistle did nothing</JockoBaiting>

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[kneejerk response]You saw nothing of the sort, Matthew. Now behave.[/kneejerk response]

Davie

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
PS <JockoBaiting>I see Larsson when asked to play against a defence better than Partick Thistle did nothing</JockoBaiting>

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That's not general "jocko" baiting, but instead only affects that little minority that really wish they were Irish...