Zidane (aka England 1 France 2)
Posted by: long-time-dead on 13 June 2004
Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Just as the commentators were w**king (insert OR or AN as applicable) themselves into a state of euphoria and calling the players HEROES (Did they forget the D-Day celebrations ?), up steps ZZ.
Feckin' magic !!!!!
[This message was edited by long-time-dead on Sun 13 June 2004 at 21:47.]
Just as the commentators were w**king (insert OR or AN as applicable) themselves into a state of euphoria and calling the players HEROES (Did they forget the D-Day celebrations ?), up steps ZZ.
Feckin' magic !!!!!
[This message was edited by long-time-dead on Sun 13 June 2004 at 21:47.]
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by woody
quote:
BTW The teams in our qualification group were so poor (including Germany) that Scotland should really have qualified top of our group.
Wrong, because your team is also poor.
-- woody
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by woody:quote:
BTW The teams in our qualification group were so poor (including Germany) that Scotland should really have qualified top of our group.
Wrong, because your team is also poor.
Did you watch any of the games in our group?
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by woody
I must admit I didn't. I don't watch paint drying, normally, either.
-- woody
-- woody
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by woody:
I must admit I didn't. I don't watch paint drying, normally, either.
Ah - just checking it was uneducated bigotry and sour grapes as I'd thought...
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by DLF
quote:
That and the England fans singing "Are you Scotland in disguise?" to the French...
Football fans can be so cruel, the meanies.
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by DLF:quote:
That and the England fans singing "Are you Scotland in disguise?" to the French...
Football fans can be so cruel, the meanies.
I actually don't mine and find it reasonably amusing (especially given the result) but they can't do that and want us to support them.
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by woody
quote:
Ah - just checking it was uneducated bigotry and sour grapes as I'd thought...
Err...I have watched Scotland play football before, though, you know, and it doesn't take much match analysis to know you're not very good.
And as to sour grapes - err, hello? England lost a game and you lot are beside yourselves?
-- woody
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by woody:quote:
Ah - just checking it was uneducated bigotry and sour grapes as I'd thought...
Err...I have watched Scotland play football before, though, you know, and it doesn't take much match analysis to know you're not very good.
I stated that the Scotland qualifying group was cleary winable and without having seen any of the games you refuted this. Yes we're not very good (and probably would have been an embarressment at the tournament) but all the other teams were as bad if not worse. You'd have to actually have seen some of the games to know that though.
quote:
And as to sour grapes - err, hello? England lost a game and you lot are beside yourselves?
That's glee, not sour grapes.
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by TomK
I have no problem with that at all. Football's all about rivalries and banter. It all adds colour. The English fans at Hampden a few years ago for the playoff were absolutely magnificent and completely outsang the Scottish support in a largely good humoured manner. Sadly the atmosphere in the city centre before and after was a bit more intimidating though.
But you're right Steve. They can't have their cake and eat it and frankly I expect the real fans i.e. those who go and watch the team take as much pleasure in seeing us getting humped as we do with them.
But you're right Steve. They can't have their cake and eat it and frankly I expect the real fans i.e. those who go and watch the team take as much pleasure in seeing us getting humped as we do with them.
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by DLF
quote:
Originally posted by Steve G:
quote:
Originally posted by DLF:quote:
That and the England fans singing "Are you Scotland in disguise?" to the French...
Football fans can be so cruel, the meanies.
I actually don't mine and find it reasonably amusing (especially given the result) but they can't do that _and_ want us to support them.
I thought at the time it was a tad premature but it could be the only time we take the lead in the tournament so we had to get it in quickly, so to speak. In Euro 2000 our only win was against Germany and all we could manage was "We're shit and we know we are". Progress of sorts I suppose. I still think England can win it but so can everyone else apart from Latvia!
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by TomK:
But you're right Steve. They can't have their cake and eat it and frankly I expect the real fans i.e. those who go and watch the team take as much pleasure in seeing us getting humped as we do with them.
I couldn't agree more. I'd love to see the home internationals re-introduced even though it'd mean Scotland taking a beating more often than not.
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by DLF:
I still think England can win it but so can everyone else apart from Latvia!
England ran the favourites close and should have won the game. I don't think they're out if either as so far only Spain has even slightly impressed of the other main contenders.
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by woody
quote:
I stated that the Scotland qualifying group was cleary winable and without having seen any of the games you refuted this.
No, you said you should have qualified because the teams in it were poor and I simply stated that as you are also poor it's not a surprise you didn't qualify and therefore may have been clearly winnable, just not for Scotland.
-- woody
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by TomK
Yip, it's still wide open and I'll be astonished if England don't qualify.
I actually thought it would have been a draw last night and both teams would have been happy with that. France have obviously produced a number of technically very gifted players over the years but I confess I've often reckoned they lacked real bottle. I thought there was a spell last night just after England scored when their heads seemed to go down. England on the other hand are less gifted individually (while still being an extremely useful squad) but they have a belief in themselves that I find admirable.
I actually thought it would have been a draw last night and both teams would have been happy with that. France have obviously produced a number of technically very gifted players over the years but I confess I've often reckoned they lacked real bottle. I thought there was a spell last night just after England scored when their heads seemed to go down. England on the other hand are less gifted individually (while still being an extremely useful squad) but they have a belief in themselves that I find admirable.
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by DLF
quote:
Originally posted by TomK:
I have no problem with that at all. Football's all about rivalries and banter. It all adds colour. The English fans at Hampden a few years ago for the playoff were absolutely magnificent and completely outsang the Scottish support in a largely good humoured manner. Sadly the atmosphere in the city centre before and after was a bit more intimidating though.
But you're right Steve. They can't have their cake and eat it and frankly I expect the real fans i.e. those who go and watch the team take as much pleasure in seeing us getting humped as we do with them.
Right on Tom. I wish some of your countrymen would stop calling us all arrogant though. Any fans who can sing "we're shit and we know we are" can't be accused of arrogance.
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by TomK:
Yip, it's still wide open and I'll be astonished if England don't qualify.
I'm hoping our new man Prso will stick a couple past them but I'd have thought England are more or less certain to qualify - although I'd gladly be proved wrong!
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by matthewr
I don't think Steve has done any inappropriate gloating and his simply enjoyed the defeat in the traditional manner expected of sporting rivals. It's very obvious that he knows about and talks about Scottish football instead of, like a vocal minority of his compatriots, being obsessed with how it compares to English football.
There is a certain type of Scot who defines Scotland and Scottishness entirely in terms of its relationship to England. They always come across as either petty and bitter and/or else borderline mentalists. (Although the English are obviously on very dodgy ground when it comes to perverted forms of nationalism).
Matthew
PS My mate just got back from the game and tells me "You would have been proud of me.
I nearly got in a fight with one of our supporters after ticking him off for trying to wind up a load of French fans with ludicrous 'if it wasn't for the english you'd be krauts' type taunts."
Although personally, vacuous Sleb obsessive that I am, I was more impressed with the fact that he met Posh Spice.
There is a certain type of Scot who defines Scotland and Scottishness entirely in terms of its relationship to England. They always come across as either petty and bitter and/or else borderline mentalists. (Although the English are obviously on very dodgy ground when it comes to perverted forms of nationalism).
Matthew
PS My mate just got back from the game and tells me "You would have been proud of me.
I nearly got in a fight with one of our supporters after ticking him off for trying to wind up a load of French fans with ludicrous 'if it wasn't for the english you'd be krauts' type taunts."
Although personally, vacuous Sleb obsessive that I am, I was more impressed with the fact that he met Posh Spice.
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by DLF:
Right on Tom. I wish some of your countrymen would stop calling us all arrogant though. Any fans who can sing "we're shit and we know we are" can't be accused of arrogance.
The problem is mainly with the press rather than with the ordinary fans I think. According to my colleagues the display from the commentary team last night was particularily bad, especially in terms of counting chickens before they hatched.
To be honest though it's not really about the arrogance for me - it's purely that England are our closest neighbours and more successful at football than we are. Just like with all rivalries (and this happens elsewhere in the world as well) it's then traditional to want them to do badly, but there is nothing malicous in it (or at least not in my case, from the perspective of being the product of an English mother and a Scottish father).
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by TomK
quote:
Originally posted by woody:quote:
I stated that the Scotland qualifying group was cleary winable and without having seen any of the games you refuted this.
No, you said you should have qualified because the teams in it were poor and I simply stated that as you are also poor it's not a surprise you didn't qualify and therefore may have been clearly winnable, just not for Scotland.
-- woody
We dropped points needlessly against extremely poor teams who by any standards of measurement are even lower down the pecking order than we are at the moment. With a pretty dreadful German team as the only other realistic group winners it was definitely there for us to win it. I doubt we'll ever be in a section like that again i.e. where the "big" team is nearly as crap as we are and the others are of an even lower standard.
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
I don't think Steve has done any inappropriate gloating and his simply enjoyed the defeat in the traditional manner expected of sporting rivals. It's very obvious that he knows about and talks about Scottish football instead of, like a vocal minority of his compatriots, being obsessed with how it compares to English football.
Why thank you Mr. Robinson - you've summed up exactly how I feel on the subject!
quote:
There is a certain type of Scot who defines Scotland and Scottishness entirely in terms of its relationship to England. They always come across as either petty and bitter and/or else borderline mentalists.
While there are a considerable number of those about unforunately I'm confident that the majority of Scottish fans see it as a friendly rivalry.
Rather bizzarely my own team (Rangers) sports a considerable number of Scots supporting England, which is very strange behavious and probably equally misguided.
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by TomK:
We dropped points needlessly against extremely poor teams who by any standards of measurement are even lower down the pecking order than we are at the moment. With a pretty dreadful German team as the only other realistic group winners it was definitely there for us to win it. I doubt we'll ever be in a section like that again i.e. where the "big" team is nearly as crap as we are and the others are of an even lower standard.
That's exactly the point I was trying to make to woody. Yes we're shit (and we know it) but that group was so bad we should still have topped it. Most of the other groups seemed to have at least a couple of decent teams in them but our group didn't have any!
If Germany are anything like as bad as they were in our group then they're in for a torrid time in this tournament, although I suppose they do usually seem to improve once they've qualified.
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by TomK
quote:
Originally posted by DLF:
Right on Tom. I wish some of your countrymen would stop calling us all arrogant though. Any fans who can sing "we're shit and we know we are" can't be accused of arrogance.
Ignoring the hooliganism issue for now, the problem is not with the support. I've had many an enjoyable beer with English fans watching Scotland and/or England in the pub. The real fans are fine and I've absolutely no problem with them feeling as passionate about England as I used to be about Scotland. It's your press and media. That's where the arrogance is.
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by woody
quote:
There is a certain type of Scot who defines Scotland and Scottishness entirely in terms of its relationship to England. They always come across as either petty and bitter and/or else borderline mentalists.
There are possibly more of this type, then, in London (and the SE) as some of them are more scottish than a haggis, if you know what I mean, and jump on any opportunity to moan about anything English despite living and working here. I think Scot's are generally great people, personally (just not at footie
)-- woody
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by Steve G
Just re-checked the qualifying group results for Scotland. Germany topped the group on 18 points and Scotland were 2nd on 14 points. Germany had a +9 goal difference and ours was +4.
The problem games were two away games - a 2-2 draw with the Faroes and a 1-0 loss to Lithuania. Both of those teams are the sort that should be getting disposed of 3-0 or 4-0 (although even at home we only beat them 3-1 and 1-0 respectively). Even 2-0 results in both games would have seen Scotland on 18 points and a +9 goal difference.
Even the Germany games were pretty close - 1-1 at Home and 2-1 to Germany away, which should show anyone just how bad they were!
The problem games were two away games - a 2-2 draw with the Faroes and a 1-0 loss to Lithuania. Both of those teams are the sort that should be getting disposed of 3-0 or 4-0 (although even at home we only beat them 3-1 and 1-0 respectively). Even 2-0 results in both games would have seen Scotland on 18 points and a +9 goal difference.
Even the Germany games were pretty close - 1-1 at Home and 2-1 to Germany away, which should show anyone just how bad they were!
Posted on: 14 June 2004 by DLF
quote:
PS My mate just got back from the game and tells me "You would have been proud of me.
I nearly got in a fight with one of our supporters after ticking him off for trying to wind up a load of French fans with ludicrous 'if it wasn't for the english you'd be krauts' type taunts."
Indeed, but "If it wasn't for the English, Scottish, Welsh, Canadians and Americans you may have ended up behind the Iron Curtain" doesn't trip off the tongue quite as easily.