Zidane (aka England 1 France 2)

As at least the players got laid.

Perhaps even Beckham scored this time...

quote:

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Originally posted by TomK:

quote:

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Originally posted by mike lacey:

quote:

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Originally posted by TomK:
Sorry to disappoint you Mike but does it ever occur to you that perhaps we were having a bit of fun at your expense and it's just a bit boring now. You swallowed the bait hook line and sinker and I for one found your outraged responses totally hilarious.

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Sound good, but its actually crap.

Your response is actually the next line that m'colleague came out with when we asked him why he bothered. "Och I'm just having fun "

I did not swallow any bait, you are not some clever Celt just another Jock with an inferiority complex viz. the English.. I just pointed out that the responses where very predictable.

Which they remain.

Mike.

---

You're so wrapped up in your own importance you just don't get it do you. We were taking the pish and you didn't realise it. We just kept stirring the pot and sat back and waited for the outraged responses. It was the funniest thing I've seen in ages. You in particular bit so hard you nearly pulled me off the boat. Recognise this?

"And your knowledge of baiting is so lacking that you don't appear to know that we all know that Scotland are, in fact, not there."

You've been had. Last night's result just keeps getting more enjoyable with every pompous post like this.

---

So, when we were all treated to the delightful post:

"Sorry that your knowledge of the game is so lacking that you don't appear to know that Scotland are not in fact there, having been royally rumped in the play-offs by Holland. Perhaps if you took your head out of your arse you'd know more about what was going on in the football world."

...in response to the merest suggestion that Scotland hadn't even made it to Portugaul, that, I suppose, wasn't actually written by you since, ummm, you were too busy having a good laugh eh, Tom-boy, me old mate??

JonR

[This message was edited by JonR on Tue 15 June 2004 at 12:42.]

"Have you read it?"

Yes. Most of the report -- about the post-match disturbances in England -- is a reprint of the previous report. The new bit on the trouble in Portugal was written as a minor disturbance inolving Britons who happened to be England football fans and it isn't really a football violence story. If the story was England fans clashing with French fans, say, it would have been written as such like the article from my link.

The point is there is no attempt to portray football hooliganism as anything other than an English problem by refering to them as British as was originally suggested.

Matthew

PS If there is a media problem with hooliganism is that they tend to innacurately report any trouble involving England supporters as a major riot even when it wasnt and under-report mistreatment of Englsh fans by foreign police forces.

Somebody may be able to back me up, but ISTR that some hooigans wher once nicked after ahving caused aggro somewhere.

Despite the fact that they had England shirts on, they where in fact Johnnie Foreigner.

Regards

Mike

Spending money I don't have on things I don't need.

Hmm, strikes me as a Welshman that certain people here are very sensitive about Englishness and that the people seemingly more comfortable with who they are and what defines them are Scots.

Mathew certainly seems to have a problem with the English/British stuff I have highlighted on the flags thread. Perhaps his friends in the media have influenced him??? Don't bother quoting factual reports at him. He has his own reading. A report on the recent Welsh win (there aren't many - ohh, a national trait appears - we can laugh at ourself!!!) in tennis that contained three references to British and one to Welsh was seen by him as evidence that the Welsh are seen as Welsh. Interesting. I'm not saying that it was conclusive of anything but then it really isn't hard to find hundreds of examples if you look.

We of Scottish, Welsh and Irish origins are very clear on this. The English want us to be British when it suits but they are only English when it suits. Then they wonder why we wind them up!!!

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Hughes:

The English want us to be British when it suits but they are only English when it suits. Then they wonder why we wind them up!!!

Mike

---

Mike

I think the point that you are missing is that the English actually dont "rise to the bait" as some of the Jocks seems to think, but genuinely, wonder why they bother.

I made the analogy epsewhere about the numpty in a red Astra GTE laughing at the driver of a Bentley because the Bentley has a dented bumper. The Bentley is still a Bentley, and the Astra driver, for all his gob, is still driving an Astra.

When this is pointed out some knuckle draggers ( and I dont include you in this ) just start to get aggressive, vulgar etc. No sleep lost by me.

You may be aware that many cars in England are currently flying the Cross of St George. I saw two cars yesterday, in Camberley, with St. Andrews Cross being flown.

I wondered why.

Spending money I don't have on things I don't need.

Mike,

"Mathew certainly seems to have a problem with the English/British stuff I have highlighted on the flags thread"

As I recall you claimed a anti-welsh conspiracy from the BBC reports of Ian Flanagan's win. You provided no links. I looked up a report that refers to him as British and as Welsh and said this was reasonable as a) he is British and b) the report states he is a Welshman.

I asked for more links/evidence and/or clarification you provided none.

"Don't bother quoting factual reports at him"

Which you certainly didn't.

"contained three references to British and one to Welsh was seen by him as evidence that the Welsh are seen as Welsh"

You seem to be saying that a report about a Welshman must not say he is British, even though he is. I repeat my earlier questions -- Should the BBC refer to Tim Henman excusively as being English? Are they allowed to refer to Ian Flangan's Britishness at all?

Perhaps you could edit the Flanagan report I posted into a form you consider acceptable. This might help me understand exactly what your problem with the original report is as the report seems entirely fair to me.

"The English want us to be British when it suits but they are only English when it suits"

The Welsh are British and Welsh. The English are British and English. End of.

Matthew

quote:

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
The Welsh are British and Welsh. The English are British and English. End of.

Matthew

---

Bugger, I find myself agreeing with Matthew.

Mike

Spending money I don't have on things I don't need.

Mike/Mathew,

Unfortunately, the English AND the English media do the baiting. I have no probs. with the English beyond that really. I also berate my own clubs fans (Wrexham) for singing "if you all hate the English clap your hands" and such.

I only wish that the Welsh were seen as Welsh though. It really isn't as simple as "...End of." for us. The reality for most of us is that it couldn't be further from the truth. I do sympathise with the St. Andrews flag flyers. It is obviously provocation but, from my point of view, it is somewhat deserved and there is absolutely a point. You wouldn't flyan English flag in Belfast so why is it perceived by the English as non-provocative and okay in Scotland or Wales?

It's a tricky subject all around this one so I hope no-one takes offence.

Mike

PS: Mathew, I couldn't be arsed providing the link. We're all IT literate I hope and a quick Google search brought it up for me and there really are hundreds of examples out there. I tend to post at lunchtime in work or after an evening of study so posts are often lacking in spelling etc.

I agree that the Welsh are factually Welsh and British but unfortunately we tend to battle for our Welshness because of the tendency to portray us and the other home nations as British when it suits.

Now, have your mates decided to explore the "scoop" or what?

... and so to bed!!!

OK - daft question time to change the tack away from personal insults. Let's look more widespread !!!!

Scots are offended by the use of the term "Jocks". It is a derogatory racist term.

Welsh people are offended by the use of the term "Taffy's". It is a derogatory racist term.

The Irish are offended by the use of the term "Paddy's". It is a derogatory racist term.

What the hell is the correct term for insulting Englishmen ??????

<FLOODGATES OF ABUSE OPEN>

quote:

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Originally posted by long-time-dead:
What the hell is the correct term for insulting Englishmen ??????

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I think you know the answer to that.

Davie (who hasn't watched Trainspotting for a while)

Mikke said "PS: Mathew, I couldn't be arsed providing the link. We're all IT literate I hope and a quick Google search brought it up for me"

You are accusing the media of obvious bias that is apparent in numerous reports widely available but provide no evidence. I went and found the report I think you refered to in your original post as best I could and and then copied it into a post and provided a link and made comments on it. You have provided no response to my comments and have shown no ability to produce evidence to back your claims and now say you "couldn't be arsed".

At this point your argument has zero credibility and can essentially be dismissed.

Matthew

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Hughes:
I agree that the Welsh are factually Welsh and British but unfortunately we tend to battle for our Welshness because of the tendency to portray us and the other home nations as British when it suits.

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Ironically the Welsh are the last of the British and the Scottish and English were barbarian invaders. Just think Mike, Wrexham, last outpost of Roman civilisation in the west .

DLF,

I think that, even as a Welshman, I have to disassociate Wrexham from notions of civilisation!!!

Mathew,

For the record:

http://www.guildofglyndwr.co.uk/halloffame.htm and
http://www.guildofglyndwr.co.uk/misc.htm

Both pages give some interesting information - starting with their address being in Leeds!!! Nice to know Keith Allen values his Welshness isn't it? With Welshman like that... and also

http://www.guildofglyndwr.co.uk/members.htm

I make no pretence of absolutely agreeing with everything there but as I said re: Flanagan.

http://archive.wn.com/2004/06/09/1400/tennischampion/

"Welsh rare bit of tennis glory
BRITISH tennis was toasting a new hero last night when a grinning Welshman ranked 866th in the world defeated last year's Wimbledon finalist. | Ian Flanagan, barely a household name in his own home, pulled off ..."

leads to

Welsh rare bit of tennis glory

EVE FODENS

BRITISH tennis was toasting a new hero last night when a grinning Welshman ranked 866th in the world defeated last year’s Wimbledon finalist.

Ian Flanagan, barely a household name in his own home, pulled off one of the sport’s biggest upsets by winning in straight sets against Mark Philippoussis in the first round of the Stella Artois Championship at the Queen’s Club in London.

Flanagan, 22, from St Asaph, suffered for almost two years with glandular fever as a teenager and had never previously won a match on the ATP Tour. But he played some superb tennis to defeat the 1997 champion 7-6, 7-6.

That's their capitals not mine.

Now, compare and contrast from the BBC (and I concede that these are but two examples but then you will undoubtedly want more. Having actually given you what you wanted the defence will undoubtedly be "but it's just two").

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/3806429.stm

Flanagan misses Wimbledon

Flanagan in wildcard woe
Wales' Ian Flanagan has missed out on a place at Wimbledon after losing in the qualifying tournament.

Flanagan never hit the heights that saw him reach the last 16 at the Stella Artois Championships, falling in straight sets to Israel's Andy Ram.

Last week at Queen's, the 22-year-old Welshman beat Mark Philippoussis and Victor Hanescu, before losing to world number 13 Sebastien Grosjean.

His only consolation is a 310-place rise in the world rankings to 556th.

So, a Welshman misses out on something and is Welsh. Then we have,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/3785691.stm

where he is mysteriously British three times and Welsh once.

The point is not that this stuff is okay because it mentions he's Welsh as well as British but WHEN it gets mentioned. Context is everything.

Mike

PS: I hope nobody thinks this is personal. It most certainly isn't and shouldn't be read that way but generally speaking the media is so obvious and transparent in its' bias that most Welsh people find it ludicrous to be challenged on such stuff. Mathew has opinions. He is entitled to them and remains entitled to them even if I think or can prove he is wrong. It's just a discussion folks. At the end of it you know more about me and I know more about you and maybe we understand each other a little better even if we fundamentally disagree.

God that was namby pamby of me wasn't it?

PPS: My favourite recent example was the head of BBC Wales conceding that the BBC were biased against North Wales but defending it by saying that it was only a reflection of the bias in English society (thus perhaps conceding the Englishness of the media in Cardiff!!!). Well that's okay then!!! Doh.

PPPS: So Mathew, have your journalist friends made any progress on the facts of last Sunday in Manchester?

Mike,

I really don't know what your making such a bloody fuss about. I've just read an interview with Flanagan in the (London) Evening Standard in which it is said that despite having grown up in Wales he actually consideres himself English! So, thanks for sticking up for one of us!!

Flanagan's not the only one by the way. A guy I used to work with positively bridled at being referred to as Welsh despite the fact that both his parents are Welsh! As far as he's concerned he is English - end of story! What is all this about people eschewing their Welshness??!

In fact in sporting terms at least, Wales seems to me to be a very divided principality. Take football and rugby for instance. Rugby is played predominately in (mostly English-speaking) South Wales whilst virtually ignored in the predominantly Welsh-speaking north who favour soccer - in fact I'm told that soccer is played in schools in North Wales and rugby doesn't get a look-in. No doubt this is influenced by the north's proximity to Liverpool and the fact that Michael Owen has a home in north Wales.

So Mike, of which part of Wales do you consider yourself a representative?

Regards,

JonR

Mike,

I concede that these are but two examples but then you will undoubtedly want more. Having actually given you what you wanted the defence will undoubtedly be "but it's just two"

Just one actually. And here's one that fails to mention the Welshness of Flanagan when reporting his utter failure. As he is exclusively British in this are we to assume The Guardian is anti-English and pro-Welsh?

Meanwhile I've been utterly disgusted by the reports of Blair's week in Europe that fail to mention he is English and keep banging on about how he is "British".

have your journalist friends made any progress on the facts of last Sunday in Manchester?"

Erm, they looked for the report on Reuters and AP. It wasn't there, it's a non-story and that's about it. FWIW The Observer's BNP specialist (another friend of mine) hasn't even heard of it.

You still haven't provided any indication as to why this is a media cover up relating to pro-English bias and not simply a non-story that wasn't reported becuase it wasn't very important.

Matthew

quote:

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
Meanwhile I've been utterly disgusted by the reports of Blair's week in Europe that fail to mention he is English and keep banging on about how he is "British".

---

A perfect example of what we're complaining about! Why blame the rest of us? He's all yours.

Davie

Like anyone outside the UK gives a toss about Wales (or Scotland for that matter)...face it, most of the population of the UK live in England, the vast majority of the GDP is generated in England (FWIW disproportionate amounts are spent outside England BTW) and most of the money and power are in England.

-- woody

Woody:

You've neatly personified the problem. Well done.

Davie

Well said Bhoyo. I can only presume Woody was on a wind up. Let's take it in the spirit intended. He's English. The glare of the light from that new fangled electricity stuff has obviously sent him fleeing to the hills in fear.

Mathew, forgive me but I really don't understand why anyone can be so naive as to assume that if something hasn't been reported to/by an agency then it either hasn't happened or wasn't important enough. Are you just winding me up or what? Does anybody else here actually accept such a weird perspective? Speak up please!

I don't want/need to be a conspiracy theorist but the facts are simply that there were humdreds of people involved in this and the media were there. The story was suppressed by co-operation by all concerned (how else could it happen?) and it surely can't be that hard to figure out why. Stories came out elsewhere? Well, so what? Manchester is pretty slick at media management nowadays (you only have to read the stuff about Manchester residents not paying for the Commonwealth Games and then talk to various people to find out the truth on that one). The stories got out elsewhere. That doesn't make the Manchester story a fairytale or unimportant.

Personally, I think people have a right to know such things and journalists whose attitude is so blase and complacent and arrogant (at least on what has been presented by you, which granted may be an oversimplification but...) need to rethink why they're doing the job IMHO!!! Nick Griffin was in the middle of this. Is that a minor story? Really!!!

As an aside, a couple of years ago I went to watch Oldham v Wrexham (an absolute drubbing for the away team). After the match I was trapped at Oldham Mumps station for an hour and a half. We were petrol bombed; the car in the car park next to us was set on fire and when a few more made it back to the station it became apparent that there had been an orechestrated low key campaign by various Asian youths using cars and mobiles to attack Wrexham fans in obviously isolated groups (ie. the ones not in cars or on coaches) and that at least two people were in hospital and were likely to spend the night there. After an hour and a half our train finally arrived and all of us were warned that these gangs were now on the bridge ahead and that we should either not get on the train or get down on the floor in the middle of it. As we passed under the bridge about 50% of the train windows (it was only a two carriage Pacer) were bricked in.

We made it home (in my case Salford) and various people reported the whole thing to the police. I reported it to a guy I played football with from the Evening News. His attitude was that race issues didn't play well and his editor wouldn't let him publish as it would be seen as stirring. None of the police reports went anywhere although several lads (me included) were told that we were stupid walking through that area as it was a tinderbox and likely to go up any day soon racially).

Two months later the police found themselves in the middle of what became known as the "Oldham riots" and claimed not to have seen any indications that they had seen it coming. Well I certainly bloody did.
What was in the papers - zilch!!! Obviously never happened then!!!

As I have said elsewhere, there are plenty of witnesses. Do journos not have feet, inquisitiveness and notebooks nowadays?

PS: I love the way I need to provide you with links that you otherwise can't find and take as evidence of my talking rubbish but then, when I do so, your search abilities magically return. No bias there then?!

JonR, I fear your information about Wales is based upon either a 1970s stereotype or an English perspective. The opposite is true. Rugby is dying in South Wales as demonstrated by the national team and leagues and beginning to thrive in the North over the past 20 years, however, that in itself is a simplification.

Wales is divided into four. The SW is Welsh. The SE is English. The NW is Welsh and the NE thinks Welsh politically but is basically English. That explains why the vote in favour of our "parish assembly" some years ago was so close. An analysis of the voting showed that NW and SW voted for whilst SE voted against and NW was split but mostly against. Still, the majority was still higher than that which put Thatcher into power!!!

Your comments re: Michael Owen are just a wind up really. He has lived in Wales for quite a long time and, if anything, there is less schools and other football played in North Wales than in the past 40 years.

"Flanagan's not the only one by the way. A guy I used to work with positively bridled at being referred to as Welsh despite the fact that both his parents are Welsh! As far as he's concerned he is English - end of story! What is all this about people eschewing their Welshness??!"

I'm not sure what your point is. You are as you identify yourself. I wonder why anyone in work would have identified him as Welsh? Would they, by any small chance have been trying to provoke him re: his nationality? Gosh, perish the thought! On the other hand, why would it ever come up? Both my parents are Welsh as are both families. I was born in Chester (damnit!!!) but I am Welsh. I have a friend in the same position and they consider themselves English. Fair enough.

As for Flanagam well, in retrospect he was obviously a bad choice to illustrate the argument but at the time of the article he hadn't said that and so one should take the article as is. I am currently working on an item to email to Mathew re: the attitude of the media toward the last Welsh World Cup campaign. It already makes for quite fascinating reading.

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
Meanwhile I've been utterly disgusted by the reports of Blair's week in Europe that fail to mention he is English and keep banging on about how he is "British".

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That fucker is most certainly English and you can keep him...

It's just a typical case of an English yobbo being called British when he's causing trouble in Europe!

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Hughes:
Well said Bhoyo. I can only presume Woody was on a wind up. Let's take it in the spirit intended. He's English.

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Indeed. Steven Toy often says similar things so perhaps woody regards him as a mentor?

Mikke said "Mathew, forgive me but I really don't understand why anyone can be so naive as to assume that if something hasn't been reported to/by an agency then it either hasn't happened or wasn't important enough"

That wasn't what I said. I said that it was much more likely that these events weren't much of a story and so weren't reported than they were being suppressed as part of some sort of censoriship.

In order to convince me that the censorship is happening in this case you are going to have to explain:

a) Why anyone would want to suppress this when the press and the government have a track record and vested interest in portraying the BNP as violent extremists

and b) By what mechanism the entire national press and lots of public witnesses have been so effectively silenced.

Overall it seems that Occam's Razor tells us that this a non-event rather than an act of censorship.

FWIW I am of course aware of and concerned by censorship and media bias but issues like the control of billionaire Americans like Rupert Murdoch on our press agenda and the increasingly, inappropriate and excessive use of D-Notices by the government (recently used to suppress information about the troubled personal life of Blair's daughter for example) are not only much more credible but much more worth discussion than seemingly baseless stories of mass media deception and control over minor stories.

"I think people have a right to know such things and journalists whose attitude is so blase and complacent and arrogant (at least on what has been presented by you, which granted may be an oversimplification but...) need to rethink why they're doing the job IMHO!!!"

Again there are plenty of issues surrounding the decline of journalism and the changing nature of our media. I just don't think the angle you are pursuing in this regard is desparately important or relavent.

"Nick Griffin was in the middle of this. Is that a minor story? Really!!!"

If you are really interested in getting this story investigated, then I suggest you get together a summary of the apparent facts of this event with dates and details of who was there, what happened, exactly where it was, etc. and contact some newspapers directly with this information. I suggest you start with the the Manchester Evening News (who have an obviously local interest) and one or more of the Sunday papers who tend to have more time to deveote to deeper and longer stories and are not quite as driven by the daily news agenda.

Probably your best best though would be someone like Searchlight -- indeed if Griffin was there at that count on and there was some kind of disturbance (even a relatively minor one) I'd be astonished if they didn't have asomeone there and don't already know about it. See http://www.stopthebnp.com/

On the Welsh thing, lets start again. I fully support and understand that the Welsh (and the Scots) need to promote and protect their culture, nationality and nationhood in the face of English hegemony and that this can involve keeping tabs on the media and speaking out against poor reporting (and the sort of attitudes outlined by Woody above above from which I would distance myself entirely).

However, I do not believe there is an insitutionalised anti-Welsh (or Scottish) agenda in our media and in particualrly not in the BBC. To convince me otherwise there would have to be some serious, large scale study that is beyond the scope of this forum. I also have little interest in discussing the issue further as frankly its a very tired, old worn subject that never gets very far.

Matthew

Matthew

Since I started the thread and it has decided to divert to either the :

"It happened but it didn't happen in the press so it couldn't of happened because nobody in the press happened to see it" debate

or the :

"If your Welsh you must be English because any Welshman I know outwith Max Boyce says so"

or the :

"I'm English, not a fucking racist/jock/taffy/paddy (delete as applicable)"

I propose a new direction to the debate :

"Is Woody actually a Bay City Roller ?"

Shang-a-lang

quote:

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"Is Woody actually a Bay City Roller ?"

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Nah, mate. Too young

-- woody