building a powersupply by my self
Posted by: Robbert on 06 January 2005
Is it posible to build a powersupply by your self?
Does anybody have some info to make it?
NAIM: NAIT5,CD5i, Interlink
Dynaudio: Natural One
Does anybody have some info to make it?
NAIM: NAIT5,CD5i, Interlink
Dynaudio: Natural One
Posted on: 07 January 2005 by Aric
Joe,
Making a blanket statement that compares building a power supply to shooting your Naim equipment with a shotgun is asinine and in your own words "inflammatory and ridiculous."
There's PLENTY of EE's out there who would be more than able to build a capable PSU for Naim's devices. Certainly Naim engineers know their equipment the best, but that doesn't mean another engineer could not suitably design products geared towards Naim's products.
And your comment about Porsche engineers knowing best doesn't hold much water either. I seem to recall a Mr. Ruff who made considerable changes to Porsche engines with much acclaim. He wasn't a Porsche engineer. And he did something that Porsche couldn't do but was obliged by them anyway.
American engineers were able to rip open defected Russian fighter planes during the cold war, reverse engineer them, and note that their technology wasn't anything that we couldn't do. I'm sure Krell or Mark Levinson could do the same thing to Naim components if they so chose. But they don't, because they PREFER their own sound, much like people on this forum PREFER other cable manufacturers than Naim's calbes.
Objecting to someone else's preferences is asinine. And borderline psychotic.
Aric
Mark Twain-
Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.
Making a blanket statement that compares building a power supply to shooting your Naim equipment with a shotgun is asinine and in your own words "inflammatory and ridiculous."
There's PLENTY of EE's out there who would be more than able to build a capable PSU for Naim's devices. Certainly Naim engineers know their equipment the best, but that doesn't mean another engineer could not suitably design products geared towards Naim's products.
And your comment about Porsche engineers knowing best doesn't hold much water either. I seem to recall a Mr. Ruff who made considerable changes to Porsche engines with much acclaim. He wasn't a Porsche engineer. And he did something that Porsche couldn't do but was obliged by them anyway.
American engineers were able to rip open defected Russian fighter planes during the cold war, reverse engineer them, and note that their technology wasn't anything that we couldn't do. I'm sure Krell or Mark Levinson could do the same thing to Naim components if they so chose. But they don't, because they PREFER their own sound, much like people on this forum PREFER other cable manufacturers than Naim's calbes.
Objecting to someone else's preferences is asinine. And borderline psychotic.
Aric
Mark Twain-
Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.
Posted on: 07 January 2005 by joe90
But an RUF isn't a Porsche anymore is it. It's an RUF.
Posted on: 08 January 2005 by doctorf
Well I've not started crying yet. My hifi sound is what matters to me and if my non-Naim power supply and non-Naim speaker cables sound better than the Flatcap/Hicap/NACA5 then I am certainly not too worried that I have left the pure Naim club and gone over to the dark side!
Simon F
Simon F
Posted on: 08 January 2005 by prowla
Cor - This has turned into an entertaining thread!
FWIW, I would suggest that it is entirely possible to build a better power supply than the ones Naim sell.
There is no way that Naim are the only people in the world who know how to take a raw mains supply and convert it to 24V DC.
To say otherwise is simply ridiculous!
There are individuals and companies who have produced power supplies and are very happy with them.
Personally, I've chosen not to go down that route, and I've got two Hi-Caps in my system.
I don't want to invest the time, effort and money in DIY right now.
That's my choice.
It doesn't make me superior to those who have.
Paul
FWIW, I would suggest that it is entirely possible to build a better power supply than the ones Naim sell.
There is no way that Naim are the only people in the world who know how to take a raw mains supply and convert it to 24V DC.
To say otherwise is simply ridiculous!
There are individuals and companies who have produced power supplies and are very happy with them.
Personally, I've chosen not to go down that route, and I've got two Hi-Caps in my system.
I don't want to invest the time, effort and money in DIY right now.
That's my choice.
It doesn't make me superior to those who have.
Paul
Posted on: 08 January 2005 by Robbert
quote:
Originally posted by joe90:
"With all due respect to Naim there are other power supplies out there, some DIY and some off the shelf. Most are a lot cheaper than Naim and the one I use sounds infinitely better than the Flatcap and then Hi-cap which preceded it."
But then you don't have a Naim system anymore do you? You have something else.
I think that many many people doesn't have a naim system at all becouse they don't have naim speakers.
For me it doesn't matter at all at what components the system is built. For me the basic setup is naim. (amp/CD)
But my phono amp is from another company and my recordplayer is from Technics. So No naim set
NAIM: NAIT5,CD5i, Interlink
Dynaudio: Natural One
Posted on: 08 January 2005 by Milan
I have a non Naim PS. It works well. I also have a Snaps which works well but not as good as the other one. I have heard a Hicap and it is noticeably better but I cannot afford one yet!
Soon someone will mention the A word and all will be lost.
Milan
Soon someone will mention the A word and all will be lost.
Milan
Posted on: 08 January 2005 by Adam Meredith
There are many posts about improving Naim units – or building them yourself.
In the FRAIM Freads, I have tried to point out that, if you want to replicate the effect of the FRAIM you are likely to have to copy it exactly (which you won’t) or take a different approach to the problem and find an equally successful alternative solution.
As Opposition MPs tirelessly intone, the devil is in the detail. I have now been at NAIM for 8 months or so. I have built various units and all seemed relatively within my capabilities BUT there were certain aspects of the construction that I just followed for reasons of “that’s the way it is done”. Since then I have stumbled over questions of detail to which the answer has been a surprise. Conversations with Test, Service and our designers have revealed many key areas of component selection and physical construction that have been found to effect the character of the finished item.
I work on the basis that, if something is not the same – then it is different.
In audio, the difference can range from the sonically undetectable (different colour case paint ….. although?) to the plain obvious (different value reservoir capacitors). However, a concatenation of several, individually undetectable, alterations will almost always lead to a detectable alteration of result.
SO – modification will often lead to difference.
Presented with two alternatives, we will often be able to express a preference. We are totally entitled to that preference and Naim lives or dies by being judged preferable in auditions (since many customers have never heard of us).
At Naim, the biggest dismissal for any attempted improvement is “It’s a bit hi-fi”. By which we mean the sound encourages you to think of it in terms of bass tightness, treble purity, attack, etc. By contrast, the first time I let myself really listen to the NAC 552 (CDX2, XPS2, 552, 300 and a pair of nSats – not a theoretically ideal system) I totally “got” what it was doing. You are reduced to silence by the lack of anything to say. You listen and, if anything, ask what the music is.
I can, and I am no electrical engineer, bugger up that result big time by doing any one of a trillion things. I don’t want to. There are some of you who might be able to make a change that is for the good but doing so is not your life’s work, you do not have to submit the results of your efforts to peer review (as our team have to) and, it seems, many of you ARE trying to get away from the “Naim sound”.
As with the FRAIM – it can bewilder observers as to why you do not begin with a blank sheet. As we often said in Ireland “If I was going there, I wouldn’t start from here.”
In the FRAIM Freads, I have tried to point out that, if you want to replicate the effect of the FRAIM you are likely to have to copy it exactly (which you won’t) or take a different approach to the problem and find an equally successful alternative solution.
As Opposition MPs tirelessly intone, the devil is in the detail. I have now been at NAIM for 8 months or so. I have built various units and all seemed relatively within my capabilities BUT there were certain aspects of the construction that I just followed for reasons of “that’s the way it is done”. Since then I have stumbled over questions of detail to which the answer has been a surprise. Conversations with Test, Service and our designers have revealed many key areas of component selection and physical construction that have been found to effect the character of the finished item.
I work on the basis that, if something is not the same – then it is different.
In audio, the difference can range from the sonically undetectable (different colour case paint ….. although?) to the plain obvious (different value reservoir capacitors). However, a concatenation of several, individually undetectable, alterations will almost always lead to a detectable alteration of result.
SO – modification will often lead to difference.
Presented with two alternatives, we will often be able to express a preference. We are totally entitled to that preference and Naim lives or dies by being judged preferable in auditions (since many customers have never heard of us).
At Naim, the biggest dismissal for any attempted improvement is “It’s a bit hi-fi”. By which we mean the sound encourages you to think of it in terms of bass tightness, treble purity, attack, etc. By contrast, the first time I let myself really listen to the NAC 552 (CDX2, XPS2, 552, 300 and a pair of nSats – not a theoretically ideal system) I totally “got” what it was doing. You are reduced to silence by the lack of anything to say. You listen and, if anything, ask what the music is.
I can, and I am no electrical engineer, bugger up that result big time by doing any one of a trillion things. I don’t want to. There are some of you who might be able to make a change that is for the good but doing so is not your life’s work, you do not have to submit the results of your efforts to peer review (as our team have to) and, it seems, many of you ARE trying to get away from the “Naim sound”.
As with the FRAIM – it can bewilder observers as to why you do not begin with a blank sheet. As we often said in Ireland “If I was going there, I wouldn’t start from here.”
Posted on: 08 January 2005 by doctorf
Nice post Adam!
I just get a bit cheesed off with some of the blinkered views on this forum.
I admit to trying to get a great sound for the price of an average one. To do this I have found my power supply at £300 sounds better than my old Flatcap or Hi-cap. My £500 cd player also sounds better than my old Naim cdp. I enjoy my 72/160/SBL sound so they will not be replaced.
While my kids are costing in excess of £15k/year to educate (that is of course paid for with after-tax money)I cannot justify spending >£10k on hi-fi especially with the law of diminishing returns. So I'm happy to listen to what I've got but if any of you lot are ever around Leeds just get in touch & you'll be most welcome to a listen and a coffee. You may be surprised at what you hear!!
Simon F
I just get a bit cheesed off with some of the blinkered views on this forum.
I admit to trying to get a great sound for the price of an average one. To do this I have found my power supply at £300 sounds better than my old Flatcap or Hi-cap. My £500 cd player also sounds better than my old Naim cdp. I enjoy my 72/160/SBL sound so they will not be replaced.
While my kids are costing in excess of £15k/year to educate (that is of course paid for with after-tax money)I cannot justify spending >£10k on hi-fi especially with the law of diminishing returns. So I'm happy to listen to what I've got but if any of you lot are ever around Leeds just get in touch & you'll be most welcome to a listen and a coffee. You may be surprised at what you hear!!
Simon F
Posted on: 08 January 2005 by Adam Meredith
Strange you mention school fees. I have just started a school where ALL the mistakes that your childrens' school make have been addressed and we have been able to do this for LESS. My school is SO much better and you are a fool for wasting your money. Unless, of course, you made the choice for rational reasons and, having made the choice, would like to get on with the other things in life.
Posted on: 08 January 2005 by doctorf
An even better post Adam! However I would never claim that anybody buying expensive Naim equipment were fools; I would however suggest that there are some who do buy Naim and would do even better by spending the same or less on alternative-make components which may, dare I say, sound even better than Naim.
Simon F
Simon F
Posted on: 08 January 2005 by Arye_Gur
I think that buying a s/h naim power supplies makes the DIY not as cheap as people can think. And Naim s/h has long long life so when you calculate the price and the service and the long life, Naim s/h is really not expensive.
Arye
Arye
Posted on: 08 January 2005 by Speedo
quote:
Originally posted by joe90:
Yes it is possible to build a power supply by yourself.
It is possible to take a loaded shotgun and point it at your Naim system and pull the trigger.
Doing both will have a similar effect on the sound of the system.
Speedo says keep drinking the Kool Aid, Joe90.
-----------------------------
Speedo likes speakers!!! Speedo says say NO TO BUSH and speedo ain't talking about the female kind, but the YEE HA, gun toting kind that's leading Speedo's country!
Posted on: 08 January 2005 by NaimDropper
I just took Joe90's advice and connected my own power supply to my Naim kit.
Then, I took my Berreta Sporting Clays Over and Under 12ga, loaded up some 00 Buck Shot and shot it twice. (If once is good, twice must be better.)
Now my ears are ringing so loud that I can't tell which sounded better -- my supplies or after the shotgun treatment.
I'll let you know once I can hear again.
David
Then, I took my Berreta Sporting Clays Over and Under 12ga, loaded up some 00 Buck Shot and shot it twice. (If once is good, twice must be better.)
Now my ears are ringing so loud that I can't tell which sounded better -- my supplies or after the shotgun treatment.
I'll let you know once I can hear again.
David
Posted on: 08 January 2005 by Aric
lol.
Mark Twain-
Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.
Mark Twain-
Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth.
Posted on: 08 January 2005 by Rico
quote:
I would however suggest that there are some who do buy Naim and would do even better by spending the same or less on alternative-make components which may, dare I say, sound even better than Naim.
errr, example?
If you can get *better* from another brand for less, go take it I say! Especially if you can avoid value-judgement arguments.Rico - SM/Mullet Audio
PS - I've looked around at many, found nothing close at the price; when the price is elevated, Naim still represents best value.
Posted on: 09 January 2005 by doctorf
quote:
errr, example?
This is a Naim forum. I have no intention of recommending non-Naim items on their site but believe me; my power supply, interconnects, speaker cables and cdp sound better than anything I have heard from Naim and at well under half Naim price.
quote:
If you can get *better* from another brand for less, go take it I say!
I have!
Simon F
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by joe90
I am not saying:
others are incapable of making a power supply
people do not have the right to try whatever they want
people shouldn't like what they have chosen if it's different to Naim
what I am, for frig's sake, saying is that
Naim are the best judges of the Naim sound and if you mix and match the electronics then you do not have the Naim sound, you have something else.
In my experience, which is not small, mixing and matching usually shags the whole lot up, so why bother?
I have a friend who is a gunsmith, and he says that his industry mercifully doesn't have too many weapon modifiers. He thinks that most punters are afraid of blowing them selves to bits and he's dead right i think. reloaders are a-plenty but actually modifying a rifle to make it BETTER is extremely expensive and you really ave to know what to do, otherwise you can throw a perfectly good firearm in the bin.
The factory makes the mistakes so you don't have to. They are not the enemy. they want to survive, pay the rent, feed their kids and make a little tatey-ash on the side. so they're trying very hard every day to keep it REAL. That is, can a real person spend real money and get a real result.
what makes you think that you've got an inkling of the collected knowledge collected by Naim over its 30 years of business?
Your arrogance proves your ignorance.
others are incapable of making a power supply
people do not have the right to try whatever they want
people shouldn't like what they have chosen if it's different to Naim
what I am, for frig's sake, saying is that
Naim are the best judges of the Naim sound and if you mix and match the electronics then you do not have the Naim sound, you have something else.
In my experience, which is not small, mixing and matching usually shags the whole lot up, so why bother?
I have a friend who is a gunsmith, and he says that his industry mercifully doesn't have too many weapon modifiers. He thinks that most punters are afraid of blowing them selves to bits and he's dead right i think. reloaders are a-plenty but actually modifying a rifle to make it BETTER is extremely expensive and you really ave to know what to do, otherwise you can throw a perfectly good firearm in the bin.
The factory makes the mistakes so you don't have to. They are not the enemy. they want to survive, pay the rent, feed their kids and make a little tatey-ash on the side. so they're trying very hard every day to keep it REAL. That is, can a real person spend real money and get a real result.
what makes you think that you've got an inkling of the collected knowledge collected by Naim over its 30 years of business?
Your arrogance proves your ignorance.
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by NaimDropper
Geez, I feel that was aimed at me.
Yes. But I am the best judge of Naimdropper sound. I bought it, I can do with it what I want. I don't expect someone else to pay for my mistakes and I have no one to please but myself.
... or unless you know what you're doing. I have several examples of demonstrably improved performance in this area, but that's not a discussion for this forum.
Maybe I could smash my modified rifle with my homebrew power supply...
I return such mistakes to the factory. I pay for highly refined products that have thousands of hours of thought and experimentation and statistical process control and previous design and manufacturing experience to give me the best value for my money. Otherwise it goes back for a refund.
An inkling? How would you know if I did or did not? What does it matter to you anyway?
Perhaps Patrick hit it on the head -- If we didn't care about this stuff we wouldn't be on the forum.
Peace to you, Joe90. I don't know why you feel so strongly about this issue, but to each his own.
David
quote:
Naim are the best judges of the Naim sound
Yes. But I am the best judge of Naimdropper sound. I bought it, I can do with it what I want. I don't expect someone else to pay for my mistakes and I have no one to please but myself.
quote:
actually modifying a rifle to make it BETTER is extremely expensive
... or unless you know what you're doing. I have several examples of demonstrably improved performance in this area, but that's not a discussion for this forum.
quote:
otherwise you can throw a perfectly good firearm in the bin
Maybe I could smash my modified rifle with my homebrew power supply...
quote:
The factory makes the mistakes so you don't have to.
I return such mistakes to the factory. I pay for highly refined products that have thousands of hours of thought and experimentation and statistical process control and previous design and manufacturing experience to give me the best value for my money. Otherwise it goes back for a refund.
quote:
what makes you think that you've got an inkling of the collected knowledge collected by Naim over its 30 years of business?
An inkling? How would you know if I did or did not? What does it matter to you anyway?
Perhaps Patrick hit it on the head -- If we didn't care about this stuff we wouldn't be on the forum.
Peace to you, Joe90. I don't know why you feel so strongly about this issue, but to each his own.
David