Rover cars
Posted by: herm on 23 May 2004
I never thought I'd post a query about cars...
However Rosie is about to get a new car, and it looks like she's going to get a Rover 45 1.6. I think it's called a club saloon (or some comparable silly name).
she'd been driving a Citroen Xsara, so it's not like we're talking big stuff here. I think she likes the looks of the Rover over most of the competition. Most of the time she has 45 minute rides. It's not like she's driving from London to Edinburgh every weekend.
So is anyone aware of big downsides to this car?
I know there are much better vehicles to be had for more money, but we just bought a new house and she's not going to get a more expensive car than the company offers her.
Input would be appreciated.
Herman
However Rosie is about to get a new car, and it looks like she's going to get a Rover 45 1.6. I think it's called a club saloon (or some comparable silly name).
she'd been driving a Citroen Xsara, so it's not like we're talking big stuff here. I think she likes the looks of the Rover over most of the competition. Most of the time she has 45 minute rides. It's not like she's driving from London to Edinburgh every weekend.
So is anyone aware of big downsides to this car?
I know there are much better vehicles to be had for more money, but we just bought a new house and she's not going to get a more expensive car than the company offers her.
Input would be appreciated.
Herman
Posted on: 23 May 2004 by Martin D
Just pinched this from the top gear site, personally I wouldn’t touch one.
Progressively improved so the newer the better. Engine range includes a 2.0 litre KV6 mated to the 'Steptroninc' CVT automatic. New three-year warranty. Prices cut to from £9,995 for 103bhp 1.4IE 5-door to £17,095 for V6 Connoisseur. Amazing, diesel-like economy. Autocar averaged 41.8 mpg in its road test 45 1.6 (issue 8/3/2000). One of the few cars offering warm air to the feet and fresh air to the face at the same time. January 2001: Launch of Impression specials: the 103bhp 1.4 litre 45 Impression has air-conditioning, ABS, four airbags, alarm with immobiloiser, CD tuner, electric windows and electric mirrors for £11,495, while the 45 1.4 Impression S has in addition 15 inch Fission alloy wheels, rear spoiler, front fogs and a leather steering wheel and gearknob for £12,095. Impression S specs are also available on 1.6 109ps 45s, 1.8 117bhp 43s and 101 bhp 2.0TD 45s at prices from £12,695 to £14,695. Timing belts of L Series diesels apparently do last the scheduled 5 years or 84,000 miles. Reincarnation as MG ZS 180 with 2.5 KV6 has had good reviews. LPG version of 45 1.4, 1.6 and 1.8 from July 2002 at an extra £2,195, subject to a 50% - 60% Powershift rebate www.powershift.org.uk. Spirit and Spirit S specials from July 2002 (all 45 Spirits have a/c). Very attractive facelift April 2004 with modernised interior. Rovers generally had slightly below average warranty repair costs in 2003 Warranty Direct Reliability index (index 93.69 v/s lowest 31.93), just beating Nissan. Link:- www.reliabilityindex.co.uk
What's Bad
Originally due for replacement late 2004, but likely to be delayed. Testers originally thought the steering too light and the ride to soft but these have since been improved. 'K' Series engine inlet manifold 'O' rings tend to perish between 25 - 30,000 miles. Head gasket failure common on K series four cylinder engines because very low coolant capacity of engine means small leaks rapidly lead to overheating. Weakest point is water heated inlet manifold gasket. 1.8 K Series head gasket failures website link www.shame.4mg.com Bore liners of this engine can also drop. THOUGH SITUATION NOW IMPROVING, SOME PARTS FOR ROVERS ARE NOT IMMEDIATELY OBTAINABLE, CAN RESULT IN LONG PERIODS OFF THE ROAD.
Progressively improved so the newer the better. Engine range includes a 2.0 litre KV6 mated to the 'Steptroninc' CVT automatic. New three-year warranty. Prices cut to from £9,995 for 103bhp 1.4IE 5-door to £17,095 for V6 Connoisseur. Amazing, diesel-like economy. Autocar averaged 41.8 mpg in its road test 45 1.6 (issue 8/3/2000). One of the few cars offering warm air to the feet and fresh air to the face at the same time. January 2001: Launch of Impression specials: the 103bhp 1.4 litre 45 Impression has air-conditioning, ABS, four airbags, alarm with immobiloiser, CD tuner, electric windows and electric mirrors for £11,495, while the 45 1.4 Impression S has in addition 15 inch Fission alloy wheels, rear spoiler, front fogs and a leather steering wheel and gearknob for £12,095. Impression S specs are also available on 1.6 109ps 45s, 1.8 117bhp 43s and 101 bhp 2.0TD 45s at prices from £12,695 to £14,695. Timing belts of L Series diesels apparently do last the scheduled 5 years or 84,000 miles. Reincarnation as MG ZS 180 with 2.5 KV6 has had good reviews. LPG version of 45 1.4, 1.6 and 1.8 from July 2002 at an extra £2,195, subject to a 50% - 60% Powershift rebate www.powershift.org.uk. Spirit and Spirit S specials from July 2002 (all 45 Spirits have a/c). Very attractive facelift April 2004 with modernised interior. Rovers generally had slightly below average warranty repair costs in 2003 Warranty Direct Reliability index (index 93.69 v/s lowest 31.93), just beating Nissan. Link:- www.reliabilityindex.co.uk
What's Bad
Originally due for replacement late 2004, but likely to be delayed. Testers originally thought the steering too light and the ride to soft but these have since been improved. 'K' Series engine inlet manifold 'O' rings tend to perish between 25 - 30,000 miles. Head gasket failure common on K series four cylinder engines because very low coolant capacity of engine means small leaks rapidly lead to overheating. Weakest point is water heated inlet manifold gasket. 1.8 K Series head gasket failures website link www.shame.4mg.com Bore liners of this engine can also drop. THOUGH SITUATION NOW IMPROVING, SOME PARTS FOR ROVERS ARE NOT IMMEDIATELY OBTAINABLE, CAN RESULT IN LONG PERIODS OFF THE ROAD.
Posted on: 23 May 2004 by herm
quote:
Originally posted by Martin D:
Just pinched this from the top gear site, personally I wouldn’t touch one.
Thanks for the data, Martin. However, why wouldn't you touch one personally?
Posted on: 23 May 2004 by MichaelC
Once upon a time I owned, for approximately one year, one of those Fastback things - an 820, I think. It's only redeeming feature was it's large boot space.
Mike
Mike
Posted on: 23 May 2004 by Hawk
Herm, did you say its going to be a company car? Its an important question as the residual value is likely to take quite a tumble so you wont want to take the hit personally?! Basically the car is adequate but the design is dated and confidence in Rover and future parts supply is at an all time low. 'The trade' are hitting values hard with few paying anywhere near the book price which in itself is already low.. Maybe you could post a price range etc so members could give you some alternatives...?? But if you want my view... if it was the companys money.. maybe but if it was my own thanks but no thanks..
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by herm
Yes, it's going to be a company car, so she's going to be using it for two or three years tops.
The funny thing is, for most of you the looks are not so thrilling, but I guess Rosie kind of likes the dufferish style. (In fact the 2004 model looks a little fake-sportier, and she wants the one 2003 model that's in the lot.)
There are not that many Rovers on the road in Holland, so if Rosie decides to get this car, she'll won't need to spend a lot of time on parking lots trying to figure out which car is hers.
The funny thing is, for most of you the looks are not so thrilling, but I guess Rosie kind of likes the dufferish style. (In fact the 2004 model looks a little fake-sportier, and she wants the one 2003 model that's in the lot.)
There are not that many Rovers on the road in Holland, so if Rosie decides to get this car, she'll won't need to spend a lot of time on parking lots trying to figure out which car is hers.
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by Martin D
I'm just put off by the change of ownership and general company instability, the local dealer to us in the village is changing to Daihatsu because of all the problems. And there was all that in the press about the directors setting themselves up trust funds of millions when the rest of the company is in the shit and moving manufacturing abroad. The same sort of feeling that twat Dyson gives me. I'm interested in more than just the item when looking to buy something.
Martin
Martin
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by Harvey
Sorry to be negative Herm, but got to echo the sentiments broadly expressed above. In Britain, Rovers have been suffering a crises of image for the last few years and concerns have been raised about the future of the company. May be a problem if spare parts are hard to come by.The problem with the 45 is that it faces a lot of solid, safe, fast and innovative competition. The Megane, new Golf, new Astra, Leon, 147 to name but a few. Awesome cars and all of them are have new diesel engines which will be cleaner, more frugal and better for everyday driving than the petrol equivalent. Man, you can now get a real sexy car in this sector.
http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/motoring/news_and_features/story.jsp?story=515507
The NCAP rating for the 1998 Civic (ostensibly the same car as the 45)aren't particularly reassuring
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=2&id2=35
http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/motoring/news_and_features/story.jsp?story=515507
The NCAP rating for the 1998 Civic (ostensibly the same car as the 45)aren't particularly reassuring
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=2&id2=35
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by Bruce Woodhouse
From personal experience I'd not include an Alfa 147 amongst the list of 'awesome cars'. 'Infuriating' maybe.
Rover are giving away huge discounts and special deals to shift 45's and other models at present. Ask yourself why!
If she wants something with a slightly different image, perhaps a little staid, what about the new Mazda 3? I also rented a diesel Megane on holiday recently and was taken by how relaxing and generally competent it was.
Bruce
Rover are giving away huge discounts and special deals to shift 45's and other models at present. Ask yourself why!
If she wants something with a slightly different image, perhaps a little staid, what about the new Mazda 3? I also rented a diesel Megane on holiday recently and was taken by how relaxing and generally competent it was.
Bruce
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by Brian OReilly
I would say yes to a Rover 45, Herm. I assume Rosalita likes it because of its understated style and class. I think they're pretty good - should be quite pleasnt to cruise around in, handling is neat,safe,comfortable. Engine is reasonably refined and performance good for its size (performance development for the K16 was carried out by the elite of the engine development dept 
). Reliability should be as good as most other cars in the class.
The potential downsides mentioned by others are irrelevant if the car is underwritten by her employer.
I've had two myself and they were fault free. I'd be happy driving one now.
Regards,
Brian
). Reliability should be as good as most other cars in the class.The potential downsides mentioned by others are irrelevant if the car is underwritten by her employer.
I've had two myself and they were fault free. I'd be happy driving one now.
Regards,
Brian
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by Steve G
It would have to be a very, very good deal (to make up for monster depreciation) plus a long warranty before anyone should consider a Rover over some of the very good competition that is out there.
Buying British shouldn't mean putting up with crap like that.
Buying British shouldn't mean putting up with crap like that.
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by Brian OReilly
quote:
Originally posted by Steve G:
It would have to be a very, very good deal (to make up for monster depreciation) plus a long warranty before anyone should consider a Rover over some of the very good competition that is out there.
Buying British shouldn't mean putting up with crap like that.
Crap like what ?
Brian OReilly
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Brian OReilly:
Crap like what ?
Rover cars.
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by Steve G
A couple of quotes - the first from a less than satisfied owner, the 2nd (more positive) from a road test:
"I purchased my first new car, a Rover 25 Impression S, in September 2001. After about 5-6 months the engine developed a tappet noise when cold. When I took it into the dealer they said they wouldn't have to completely strip down the engine to trace the fault, but instead would replace the engine. I decided that I didn't want a car which would need a new engine every six months and decided to trade up to a Rover 45 Impression S.
Although initially pleased with my choice, it was short lived. I had problems with the heating, internal vibrations and rattles. 14 months later the dealer had still failed to resolve all of the problems (and created more, including a gouge and a crack in the fascia). After much complaining to the MG-Rover Helpline, which initially refused to acknowledge that I existed, let alone had a problem with one of its cars, offered a hefty reduction on a trade in for a new model.
I picked up my new 45 on Thursday last week at 12:00 and returned it at 16:30 with a faulty courtesy light fitting which was badly corroded and a massive dent under the car behind the driver's seat. I'd had the car for 4.5 hours and done 52 miles, of which 34 were to and from the dealership. I think that MG Rover should stick to something less complicated than manufacturing cars."
"The new MG range now offers oomph for the younger and more contemporary driver, so unlike the Rover 400, the Rover 45 is in a rather privileged position; it doesn't need to appeal to everyone from 17 to 70. So while for some, the interior might be dated rather than familiar, the rear cabin space restrictive rather than more than ample for the shopping, and the ride rather less sporty than its competitors, for some, it's just what the doctor ordered. And as a result, the overall proposition bridges the gap from old-fashioned to rather handsome in an Edward Fox kind of way... "
"I purchased my first new car, a Rover 25 Impression S, in September 2001. After about 5-6 months the engine developed a tappet noise when cold. When I took it into the dealer they said they wouldn't have to completely strip down the engine to trace the fault, but instead would replace the engine. I decided that I didn't want a car which would need a new engine every six months and decided to trade up to a Rover 45 Impression S.
Although initially pleased with my choice, it was short lived. I had problems with the heating, internal vibrations and rattles. 14 months later the dealer had still failed to resolve all of the problems (and created more, including a gouge and a crack in the fascia). After much complaining to the MG-Rover Helpline, which initially refused to acknowledge that I existed, let alone had a problem with one of its cars, offered a hefty reduction on a trade in for a new model.
I picked up my new 45 on Thursday last week at 12:00 and returned it at 16:30 with a faulty courtesy light fitting which was badly corroded and a massive dent under the car behind the driver's seat. I'd had the car for 4.5 hours and done 52 miles, of which 34 were to and from the dealership. I think that MG Rover should stick to something less complicated than manufacturing cars."
"The new MG range now offers oomph for the younger and more contemporary driver, so unlike the Rover 400, the Rover 45 is in a rather privileged position; it doesn't need to appeal to everyone from 17 to 70. So while for some, the interior might be dated rather than familiar, the rear cabin space restrictive rather than more than ample for the shopping, and the ride rather less sporty than its competitors, for some, it's just what the doctor ordered. And as a result, the overall proposition bridges the gap from old-fashioned to rather handsome in an Edward Fox kind of way... "
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by Steve G
In the UK the Rovers list price is about £13K but the same sort of cash would get you a Honda Civic 1.6SE 5-door.
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by Brian OReilly
quote:
Originally posted by Steve G:
After about 5-6 months the engine developed a tappet noise when cold. When I took it into the dealer they said they wouldn't have to completely strip down the engine to trace the fault, but instead would replace the engine. I decided that I didn't want a car which would need a new engine every six months and decided to trade up to a Rover 45 Impression S.
Although initially pleased with my choice, it was short lived. I had problems with the heating, internal vibrations and rattles. 14 months later the dealer had still failed to resolve all of the problems (and created more, including a gouge and a crack in the fascia).
I picked up my new 45 on Thursday last week at 12:00 and returned it at 16:30 with a faulty courtesy light fitting which was badly corroded and a massive dent under the car behind the driver's seat.
So one person has problems and you condemn the whole company as rubbish ? If I said my CD3,5 had a few problems would you turn round and say Naim is crap ? The problems in your quote are frankly a little weird. It would only take a couple of hours to replace a tappet on a K16, the only reason the engine would be replaced is if the company wanted it for audit purposes. This customer was offered a brand new engine but still isn't happy ? Final problem is with the courtesy lamp ? Is that really the worst that could happen ?
I've had two. No problems with tappets or courtesy lights, in fact no problems full stop. Do you think BMWs, Audis, Mercedes and Hondas are fault free ? Think again.
Brian OReilly
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Brian OReilly:
Do you think BMWs, Audis, Mercedes and Hondas are fault free ? Think again.
Maybe if you'd bought a better car you'd be less touchy about it?
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by Steve G
JD Power survey results (120 vehicles)
17th - Honda Civic
81st - Rover 45
Best in class was the Mazda 323 (3rd overall) and the Toyota Corrolla (9th overall). The Civic was 3rd in class.
Worst in the class were the Alfa Romeo 147, Fiat Stilo, Fiat Brava, Peugeot 307 & Fiat Bravo. The Peugeot 306, Citroen Xsara, Chrysler Neon, Daewoo Nubira & Daewoo Lanos were also rated lower than the Rover.
17th - Honda Civic
81st - Rover 45
Best in class was the Mazda 323 (3rd overall) and the Toyota Corrolla (9th overall). The Civic was 3rd in class.
Worst in the class were the Alfa Romeo 147, Fiat Stilo, Fiat Brava, Peugeot 307 & Fiat Bravo. The Peugeot 306, Citroen Xsara, Chrysler Neon, Daewoo Nubira & Daewoo Lanos were also rated lower than the Rover.
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by HTK
The 45 is based on the Honda Accord of two generations past. It's under engineered (by modern standards) and far too expensive for what it is. I've never owned one but have driven plenty. They were pretty average ten years ago to drive, but poorly finished.
Having said that, If it's being acquired only on looks and the company is picking up the bill, then why not? If you were digging in your own pockets I'd urge you not to. They're just not worth the outlay unless you're looking for something really cheap second hand - even then I wouldn't bother.
Cheers
Harry
Having said that, If it's being acquired only on looks and the company is picking up the bill, then why not? If you were digging in your own pockets I'd urge you not to. They're just not worth the outlay unless you're looking for something really cheap second hand - even then I wouldn't bother.
Cheers
Harry
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by herm
Wow, I'm not sure what Rosie's going to do after she's read the last bunch of replies, but I guess if we were to go on a test ride we'd better take plenty of food and water in case the vehicle breaks down five minutes out (or a dashboard light fails)...
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by HTK:
The 45 is based on the Honda Accord of two generations past.
I think it's based on the old Civic (from the late 80's), rather than the Accord (e.g. like the old Rover 200 and 400 series).
The 600 series Rover was based on the UK built Accord which is 2 or 3 generations old.
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by HTK
Take a look at a 12 year old Accord if you can find one. It will look identical to a 200. The 400 was a 200 with a boot.
Don't know what the 600 was based on - a 12 foot turd would be my best guess.
Cheers
Harry
Don't know what the 600 was based on - a 12 foot turd would be my best guess.
Cheers
Harry
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by HTK
Oops correction. The 600 was based on the accord of three generations ago. I remember now. The next Accord was good but bland and the latest one looks better than a BMW E60. The 200/400 is thus based on the Accord of four generations ago. Not a Civic.
Hats off to Rover. Most people wouldn't be able to give them away. They manage to actually get money off people for them. No mean achievement for something overpriced in today's market AND based on old Honda technology 15 years ago.
Amazing.
Cheers
Harry
Hats off to Rover. Most people wouldn't be able to give them away. They manage to actually get money off people for them. No mean achievement for something overpriced in today's market AND based on old Honda technology 15 years ago.
Amazing.
Cheers
Harry
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by Hawk
Ok guys, its sad that i know this... BUT the rover 400 was originally based on the honda Concerto! probably honda's least sucessful model and part of the rover honda partnership.. honda contributed the technology and rover were supposed to give them... er wait for it!!! ....european style!?
next came the swindon built civic 5 door which again was the same as the rover 400... just with less chrome, plastic wood... and rattles!
The current Civic 5 door is light years ahead of the rover 400 which is still effectively the old model.. Rover have facelifted and honda have redesigned from the ground up.. chalk and cheese.. It doesnt make the Rover a bad car... its just that the market has moved on..
next came the swindon built civic 5 door which again was the same as the rover 400... just with less chrome, plastic wood... and rattles!
The current Civic 5 door is light years ahead of the rover 400 which is still effectively the old model.. Rover have facelifted and honda have redesigned from the ground up.. chalk and cheese.. It doesnt make the Rover a bad car... its just that the market has moved on..
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by HTK:
Oops correction. The 600 was based on the accord of three generations ago. I remember now. The next Accord was good but bland and the latest one looks better than a BMW E60. The 200/400 is thus based on the Accord of four generations ago. Not a Civic.
The 4 generations ago Accord was bigger than the 200/400 (I know I had one for 9 years and it was a great car). Now I come to think of it the 200/400 was based on a model that used to be between the Civic and the Accord - the Honda Concerto I think it was.
If I recall correctly the Honda was the same chassis but better specified, more reliable and cheaper than the Rover and had a better resale. Some people still bought the Rover though...
Posted on: 24 May 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
The current Civic 5 door is light years ahead of the rover 400 which is still effectively the old model.. Rover have facelifted and honda have redesigned from the ground up.. chalk and cheese.. It doesnt make the Rover a bad car... its just that the market has moved on..
There aren't all that many really bad cars these days, however if you want a 1988 car it's probably best not to pay £12000-£13000 new for one in 2004...