Rover cars
Posted by: herm on 23 May 2004
I never thought I'd post a query about cars...
However Rosie is about to get a new car, and it looks like she's going to get a Rover 45 1.6. I think it's called a club saloon (or some comparable silly name).
she'd been driving a Citroen Xsara, so it's not like we're talking big stuff here. I think she likes the looks of the Rover over most of the competition. Most of the time she has 45 minute rides. It's not like she's driving from London to Edinburgh every weekend.
So is anyone aware of big downsides to this car?
I know there are much better vehicles to be had for more money, but we just bought a new house and she's not going to get a more expensive car than the company offers her.
Input would be appreciated.
Herman
However Rosie is about to get a new car, and it looks like she's going to get a Rover 45 1.6. I think it's called a club saloon (or some comparable silly name).
she'd been driving a Citroen Xsara, so it's not like we're talking big stuff here. I think she likes the looks of the Rover over most of the competition. Most of the time she has 45 minute rides. It's not like she's driving from London to Edinburgh every weekend.
So is anyone aware of big downsides to this car?
I know there are much better vehicles to be had for more money, but we just bought a new house and she's not going to get a more expensive car than the company offers her.
Input would be appreciated.
Herman
Posted on: 25 May 2004 by HTK
The SD1 was very clever in many respects but I understand they're a nightmare to keep going with just a front drive, bucket and sponge and a socket set.
My company (also British) could do with a bit of support too. Cheques and money orders to....
Cheers
Harry
My company (also British) could do with a bit of support too. Cheques and money orders to....
Cheers
Harry
Posted on: 25 May 2004 by long-time-dead
quote:
Originally posted by Brian OReilly:
That V8 75 does look pretty mean.......
Is that the same as fugly ?
Posted on: 25 May 2004 by Rana Ali
Thought I'd wade in and give some support to Brian.
First some factual corrections according to my increasingly wobbly memory for HTK ant SteveG. Prior to BMW, Rover was heavily involved with Honda and indeed John Towers had worked out a 49% holding for Honda UK until BAe screwed his deal from above.
The 600, which was an okay car for its time (launch 1993), is based on the Accord also launched at the time; which I think makes it 1 and a half generations ago. The half is because the Accord was reworked in the mid-1990's rather than given a cmpletely new platform.
The first Rover 200 codename SD3 was based on a Japanese Civic design launched in 1985.
This was replaced by a joint Honda Rover design codename R8/YY in 1989. The Honda badged version had different powertrain and ride characteristics and was called the Concerto, but it built on the same track in Longbridge by the same Rover workers. The Anglo-Japanese quality control staff looked over the cars with the same criteria. The Rover cars came in hatchback, coupe and saloon.
The R8/YY was replaced in 1995 by two new platforms. The Rover 400 was codenamed HH-R and was also a joint development with Honda's Civic (the one immediately before the current Civic). Yes, the Honda designers did more of the work and Rover had to pay a fee for each vehicle sold, especially so since the company was sold off by BAe to BMW. The Rover 200 badge was continued on a slightly smaller hatchback which was based on a updated/costdown version of the R8/YY platform codenamed R3. Because sufficient Honda technology was still used on this I think that fees were/are also paid on this model.
The planning assumptions for the HH-R and R3 were that they were supposed to be killed off in 1999. I was there at the planning meetings. However our bosses at BMW, because of massive internal ruptures at the very top (read Reaitle and Piechetstrieder) decided to invest in a new version of the Mini (to keep Reitzle busy). Thus they postponed the investment for the replacement for the mid-stream cars codenamed R48, so that its launch was put back to 2002/2003 (i.e up to 4 years later). The current MG-Rover 25/45/ZR and ZS still use the HH-R and R3 platforms with sufficient upgrades to keep them legal and somewhat market competitive (given the low investment available - a new platform is upwards of £1b). They do NOT use the Accord nor Concerto platforms as we knew them.
Despite the continual rubbishing of MG-Rover, I think that the chaps in Brum deserve a pat on the back by having sufficient nous in keeping around 50,000 people employed (directly or indirectly) without billion dollar private investment nor drains on the taxpayer - and for also keeping the flame of UK design-mass production capability alive for better times, should they ever come.
I left Rover in 1999. No, I wouldn't buy another 25/45 because I've had seven of them from 1995 to 2002 as my own or company cars. I would, however, buy a 75/ZT which does very well in JD Power. Note that the actual purchase costs of an MG-Rover bears no relationship to its list price owing to the discounts available. I currently drive an A-Class; a genius of a car for packaging almost 5 people and luggage in 3.6m of metal; and close to Rover's own concept for the replacement Mini. However my A-Class is a bag of sh*t for reliability, malfunctions, rattles and squeaks and horrendous M-B dealer costs. Nevertheless it is the only class that fufills my family's current requirements for a car.
Point of interest: Brian O'Reilly, Aonghus O'hEocha abd myself all worked for Rover. Aonghus and myself develeoped the ports for the VVC engine, and we both took redundancy on the same day after a few years together in Marketing. I never realised he was into Hi-Fi - his original intention was to make computer speakers. Prior to that Brian and I worked engine performance development on the K-Series engine. This too was supposed to be killed off in 2003 according to plans in the mid-1990's.
BTW, in terms of putting the 6 into the Mini, it was UK's Ricardo (my recent employer) that finished off the Mini powertrain development after the sell-off of Rover and Land Rover. Ricardo are like Cosworth, ProDrive-Tickford or Lotus only less well known by the public, but much bigger.
So the original question. If she likes the car, get it. For your wife's added confidence, there's a 3 -year warranty which covers your ownership. I am really upset by the vehemance of some of the replies especially those who admit to never owning the car - however each to his own. But, in a small way, just bear in mind what you're doing to people's manufacturing livelihoods in your own country. Napoleon was right after all.
[This message was edited by Rana Ali on Tue 25 May 2004 at 23:25.]
[This message was edited by Rana Ali on Tue 25 May 2004 at 23:28.]
First some factual corrections according to my increasingly wobbly memory for HTK ant SteveG. Prior to BMW, Rover was heavily involved with Honda and indeed John Towers had worked out a 49% holding for Honda UK until BAe screwed his deal from above.
The 600, which was an okay car for its time (launch 1993), is based on the Accord also launched at the time; which I think makes it 1 and a half generations ago. The half is because the Accord was reworked in the mid-1990's rather than given a cmpletely new platform.
The first Rover 200 codename SD3 was based on a Japanese Civic design launched in 1985.
This was replaced by a joint Honda Rover design codename R8/YY in 1989. The Honda badged version had different powertrain and ride characteristics and was called the Concerto, but it built on the same track in Longbridge by the same Rover workers. The Anglo-Japanese quality control staff looked over the cars with the same criteria. The Rover cars came in hatchback, coupe and saloon.
The R8/YY was replaced in 1995 by two new platforms. The Rover 400 was codenamed HH-R and was also a joint development with Honda's Civic (the one immediately before the current Civic). Yes, the Honda designers did more of the work and Rover had to pay a fee for each vehicle sold, especially so since the company was sold off by BAe to BMW. The Rover 200 badge was continued on a slightly smaller hatchback which was based on a updated/costdown version of the R8/YY platform codenamed R3. Because sufficient Honda technology was still used on this I think that fees were/are also paid on this model.
The planning assumptions for the HH-R and R3 were that they were supposed to be killed off in 1999. I was there at the planning meetings. However our bosses at BMW, because of massive internal ruptures at the very top (read Reaitle and Piechetstrieder) decided to invest in a new version of the Mini (to keep Reitzle busy). Thus they postponed the investment for the replacement for the mid-stream cars codenamed R48, so that its launch was put back to 2002/2003 (i.e up to 4 years later). The current MG-Rover 25/45/ZR and ZS still use the HH-R and R3 platforms with sufficient upgrades to keep them legal and somewhat market competitive (given the low investment available - a new platform is upwards of £1b). They do NOT use the Accord nor Concerto platforms as we knew them.
Despite the continual rubbishing of MG-Rover, I think that the chaps in Brum deserve a pat on the back by having sufficient nous in keeping around 50,000 people employed (directly or indirectly) without billion dollar private investment nor drains on the taxpayer - and for also keeping the flame of UK design-mass production capability alive for better times, should they ever come.
I left Rover in 1999. No, I wouldn't buy another 25/45 because I've had seven of them from 1995 to 2002 as my own or company cars. I would, however, buy a 75/ZT which does very well in JD Power. Note that the actual purchase costs of an MG-Rover bears no relationship to its list price owing to the discounts available. I currently drive an A-Class; a genius of a car for packaging almost 5 people and luggage in 3.6m of metal; and close to Rover's own concept for the replacement Mini. However my A-Class is a bag of sh*t for reliability, malfunctions, rattles and squeaks and horrendous M-B dealer costs. Nevertheless it is the only class that fufills my family's current requirements for a car.
Point of interest: Brian O'Reilly, Aonghus O'hEocha abd myself all worked for Rover. Aonghus and myself develeoped the ports for the VVC engine, and we both took redundancy on the same day after a few years together in Marketing. I never realised he was into Hi-Fi - his original intention was to make computer speakers. Prior to that Brian and I worked engine performance development on the K-Series engine. This too was supposed to be killed off in 2003 according to plans in the mid-1990's.
BTW, in terms of putting the 6 into the Mini, it was UK's Ricardo (my recent employer) that finished off the Mini powertrain development after the sell-off of Rover and Land Rover. Ricardo are like Cosworth, ProDrive-Tickford or Lotus only less well known by the public, but much bigger.
So the original question. If she likes the car, get it. For your wife's added confidence, there's a 3 -year warranty which covers your ownership. I am really upset by the vehemance of some of the replies especially those who admit to never owning the car - however each to his own. But, in a small way, just bear in mind what you're doing to people's manufacturing livelihoods in your own country. Napoleon was right after all.
[This message was edited by Rana Ali on Tue 25 May 2004 at 23:25.]
[This message was edited by Rana Ali on Tue 25 May 2004 at 23:28.]
Posted on: 25 May 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Rana Ali:
I would, however, buy a 75/ZT which does very well in JD Power.
Very well by Rover standards as it was 8th (out of 17) in its class and equal 31st overall in the 2004 survey.
My main problem with the Rover 75 is not that it's a bad car (I've never driven one) but just that it's so ugly.
Posted on: 26 May 2004 by Geoff P
Herm
We get BBC 2 over here. Watch the Money program tonight for a report on whose's made money out of Rover and who has'nt.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-perl/whatson/prog_parse.cgi?FILENAME=20040526/20040526_1930_4224_45702_30
May be ineteresting even if it tells you nothing about the potential quality of the cars.
regards
GEOFF
Listening every day planning to "not fade away"
We get BBC 2 over here. Watch the Money program tonight for a report on whose's made money out of Rover and who has'nt.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-perl/whatson/prog_parse.cgi?FILENAME=20040526/20040526_1930_4224_45702_30
May be ineteresting even if it tells you nothing about the potential quality of the cars.
regards
GEOFF
Listening every day planning to "not fade away"
Posted on: 26 May 2004 by ejl
Interesting post Rana. As you and others doubtless know, The Rover/Honda joint venture took a crack at the U.S. market in the late 80's with the Sterling, based on the Rover 800 series.
I've always been a bit disappointed that the venture failed in the U.S. The Sterling 825(?) was mechanically very close to the excellent Acura Legend (the first Legend series has proven itself among the most reliable sedan models in recent U.S. automotive history). The idea at the time was to match Honda reliability with Rover styling/performance (the Sterlings looked rather good at the time), for a match made in heaven. It was not to be, obviously.
I've always been a bit disappointed that the venture failed in the U.S. The Sterling 825(?) was mechanically very close to the excellent Acura Legend (the first Legend series has proven itself among the most reliable sedan models in recent U.S. automotive history). The idea at the time was to match Honda reliability with Rover styling/performance (the Sterlings looked rather good at the time), for a match made in heaven. It was not to be, obviously.
Posted on: 26 May 2004 by Martin D
Hi
Posted on: 26 May 2004 by Martin D
Hi again
Posted on: 26 May 2004 by herm
Rana, thanks for your post. I wish indeed Rosie could get a 75, but as I said, we just got a bigger house, so we can't afford to pay extra.
It's good to get some posts that are really informed. And Steve, I can see the humor of what you're saying, but the attitude is not very helpful. You've never driven a Rover, apparently, so I'm a bit puzzled why you want to be the #1 poster on this issue.
Traditionally one of the great things of the Naim Forum has been we don;t talk about equipment we haven't heard (extensively) ourselves. I think the same should go for wheels.
It's good to get some posts that are really informed. And Steve, I can see the humor of what you're saying, but the attitude is not very helpful. You've never driven a Rover, apparently, so I'm a bit puzzled why you want to be the #1 poster on this issue.
Traditionally one of the great things of the Naim Forum has been we don;t talk about equipment we haven't heard (extensively) ourselves. I think the same should go for wheels.
Posted on: 26 May 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by herm:
And Steve, I can see the humor of what you're saying, but the attitude is not very helpful. You've never driven a Rover, apparently,
I haven't driven the Rover 75 (I don't own a flat cap so obviously I'm not allowed), but I have driven lots of the others. The fact I've test driven them several times and always chosen something better is surely relevant, considering the context of this thread?
I didn't even find them all hateful - I quite liked the P6 and SD1.
Posted on: 27 May 2004 by JohanR
quote:
The fact I've test driven them several times and always chosen something better is surely relevant, considering the context of this thread?
This could be me and BMW:s! I've test driven one or another nearly everytime I've been in the mood to change car (and that's often!). The last was a 316 compact.
Some of them I even wanted, like the M Coupe, but I didn't like to pay for it.
JohanR
Posted on: 27 May 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by JohanR:
This could be me and BMW:s! I've test driven one or another nearly everytime I've been in the mood to change car (and that's often!). The last was a 316 compact.
I'm exactly the same with BMW's - I've always got one on my list and generally quite liked them (although I haven't liked the latest models as much) but have always gone for something else (often a Honda) as being better value.
Posted on: 27 May 2004 by HTK
Same here but different! Having taken a punt on a BMW 11 years ago I haven't been able to get out of them. Hate the image, love the cars. New models do look stupid though - I won't be going there. Each to their own I guess.
Cheers
Harry
Cheers
Harry
Posted on: 27 May 2004 by HTK
quote:
Originally posted by Rana Ali:
...just bear in mind what you're doing to people's manufacturing livelihoods in your own country. Napoleon was right after all.
Very emotive, patriotic and all that. I'm sure some people buy cars to keep people in work in the UK but the majority (I'm guessing) don't give it a thought.
As a tax paying UK born UK resident with a full driving licence, what exactly do I owe Rover? I'll have to check the small print on my birth certificate.
Cheers
Harry
Posted on: 27 May 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by HTK:
As a tax paying UK born UK resident with a full driving licence, what exactly do I owe Rover?
I wonder how much tax-payers money has been thrown in Rover/BL's direction over the years.
Anyway the're not the only "Buy British" option. My Accord is British built and, IMHO, it's a good car.
Posted on: 27 May 2004 by HTK
Hey Steve, if they want to pump tax payers' money in I'm not too bothered. Although it doesn't get directly subsised like it used to there's plenty of state money in the mix I'm sure. Without wishing to oversimplify it to the degree of banality, it's a good use of some tax revenue IMO - supporting employment. However, dig into my own net income just because it's British and ailing? Don't think so.
Good point about Honda. Very good point in fact.
Cheers
Harry
Good point about Honda. Very good point in fact.
Cheers
Harry
Posted on: 27 May 2004 by Hawk
quote:
Originally posted by HTK:
Good point about Honda. Very good point in fact.
Cheers
Harry
and they dont take handouts from the government either...
Posted on: 28 May 2004 by Rana Ali
Sorry, my last point was not clear and thus has been misconstrued and supposed emotive. I was really not suggesting that you dig into your pockets and save MG-Rover by buying their products or endorsing financial support (hell, my last two cars were German, although I bought a 75 for my father... a GP in his 60's...probably the perfect buying demographic). I just wish there was less of the dissing...knowing that it hurts sales which ultimately hurts the UK manufacturing sector. I mean, people reading this thread are not going to ever consider Rover now, even if they would have liked the cars (and believe it or not, over 100,000 people a year still do)
The Honda point was indeed exemplary. I've always admired Honda from the point that they (1) still buid the best engines in the world and (2) that one of the key reasons that they decided not to buy more than 49% of the Rover Group from BAe because they maintained it would then no longer be British. I just KNOW that Rover would be a stronger company if the BAe board had kept their word and sold to the John Towers/Honda proposal. BMW made two huge strategic blunders, which I'll keep to myself.
Having said all that... Japanese cars screwed together in Britain may save a few operational jobs but it isn't going to take us to the relative manufacturing strengths of the Germans or even the French. I have a deeper worry underpinning this thread...what will happen when the North Sea oil cushion deflates - will a "service industry" economy sustain?
PS Hawk, are you sure the Honda Swindon site didn't receive ANY financial help to locate them in the place they eventually did (local or otherwise)?
The Honda point was indeed exemplary. I've always admired Honda from the point that they (1) still buid the best engines in the world and (2) that one of the key reasons that they decided not to buy more than 49% of the Rover Group from BAe because they maintained it would then no longer be British. I just KNOW that Rover would be a stronger company if the BAe board had kept their word and sold to the John Towers/Honda proposal. BMW made two huge strategic blunders, which I'll keep to myself.
Having said all that... Japanese cars screwed together in Britain may save a few operational jobs but it isn't going to take us to the relative manufacturing strengths of the Germans or even the French. I have a deeper worry underpinning this thread...what will happen when the North Sea oil cushion deflates - will a "service industry" economy sustain?
PS Hawk, are you sure the Honda Swindon site didn't receive ANY financial help to locate them in the place they eventually did (local or otherwise)?
Posted on: 28 May 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Rana Ali:
PS Hawk, are you sure the Honda Swindon site didn't receive ANY financial help to locate them in the place they eventually did (local or otherwise)?
I'd be very, very surprised if they didn't.
Posted on: 28 May 2004 by Rasher
Great contibution Rana, and good points made, but ultimately cars are bought because we shallow blokes go "WWhoaa...look at that.. I Want one of those!!". If Rover fail to understand the balancing act we go through when we choose a car (when we eventually remember we have families), then they don't deserve the sales. They need to survive by their own merits and I would never buy anything just because of the British element. I'm sure they could pull it off if they took a chance (interesting) instead of playing safe (dull and boring). The MG variants are not enough. Where is the big luxury 4WD with big alloys and dripping with chrome with a big lump? Where is the new MGB Elise beater?
Posted on: 28 May 2004 by JohanR
Here in Sweden I give my country an invaluable support by WORKING for Volvo. A quite large part of the money I receive from that has been recirculated into the car industry, like two Brittish made Hondas (but never any Volvo).
I wish Rover a good future, a small, independent car manufacturer is something I like. And send a thank you to BMW for their kind financial support some years ago.
JohanR
I wish Rover a good future, a small, independent car manufacturer is something I like. And send a thank you to BMW for their kind financial support some years ago.
JohanR