Ken Bigley.

Poor old Ken, indeed.

We knew his name, where he came from, who were his family.

His death was tragic, as were the deaths of many others whom we did not know.

Is Ken's death more significant, more worthy of mourning because of our vicarious knowledge?

Whatever the answer (and I don't claim to have it) but it seems to me that if we in the West left everybody else to get on with things, and only intervene when there was a direct act of war against us, then we would not be where we now are.

cheers

Nigel

AlexG,

I have had a quick scan of your link and its a totally biased and worthless piece of propaganda.

Cheers

Don

Alex S

quote:

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Brian, generally, I'd say no, but rather than rake over it on a hi-fi forum I'll take the advice of others and let the matter rest, at least on this specific thread.

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I thought I was replying to something you'd mentioned.

quote:

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Originally posted by Trevor Newall:
there are some barbaric animals in this world, loosely termed as human beings, who are completely worthless to society.
the bastards who killed ken bigley are a perfect example.
i wish it was easy to just round them all up and put them to sleep, or ship them off to some remote island and leave them to it.
the world would be a better, and a far safer place as a result!

TN

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That sounds like Miss World giving an acceptance speech, "And I hope there'll be no more wars and that we all live happily ever after, Which Planet do you live on My friend, or are you already on Europa's ocean bed having a larf ?"


G.G.v. Andthenthebandplayedon

Fritz, good post. There are some, many in fact, who are worthless and a waste of text.

This part from TN seems a fairly accurate assessment to me:

quote:

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there are some barbaric animals in this world, loosely termed as human beings, who are completely worthless to society.
the bastards who killed ken bigley are a perfect example.

---

fritz, the planet I'd love to be on is one that's devoid of the type of vile scum who killed ken bigley.
these 'beings' are a malignant tumour in the civilised world, and one I'd take great pleasure in seeing removed and destroyed.
in my opinion, governments around the world don't do enough to eradicate the threat of these loathsome vermin.
like I said, if it were possible, I'd either round them all up and give them a lethal injection, or ship them off to a remote island, where they can inflict their inhumane behaviour on each other until they're all dead.
the civilised world is no place for them to exist.

TN

quote:

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Originally posted by Trevor Newall:
fritz, the planet I'd love to be on is one that's devoid of the type of vile scum who killed ken bigley.
these 'beings' are a malignant tumour in the civilised world, and one I'd take great pleasure in seeing removed and destroyed.
in my opinion, governments around the world don't do enough to eradicate the threat of these loathsome vermin.
like I said, if it were possible, I'd either round them all up and give them a lethal injection, or ship them off to a remote island, where they can inflict their inhumane behaviour on each other until they're all dead.
the civilised world is no place for them to exist.

TN

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Excellent my friend good luck, and the planet I'd like to live on is one where people open their eyes when they speak !

Take a look at yourself.


Cheers, Graham George Von He'smrknowitall

Berlin

Do you not see the people who murdered Mr Bigley as vile scum?

We all know there are atrocities on ALL sides in any and every conflict, but hacking a person's head off with a rusty, blunt knife is not an act carried out by vile scum in your opinion?

"Trevor the Sea is there between the land & the sky in case you didn't know like ?"


G.G.v.Flowerytwats

quote:

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Originally posted by BrianD:
Berlin

Do you not see the people who murdered Mr Bigley as vile scum?

We all know there are atrocities on ALL sides in any and every conflict, but hacking a person's head off with a rusty, blunt knife is not an act carried out by vile scum in your opinion?

---

I'm not even going to consider answering such a basic childish Skynewsesque loaded question, as I'm the second daftest member of this forum, not the first, innit.

G.G.V. Getalifepal

brian, fritz is related to bin laden.

TN

Trevor,

Thanks for the info

his cat is montenegrin, though.

TN

quote:

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I'm not even going to consider answering such a basic childish Skynewsesque loaded question,

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Which is an answer in itself, like.

quote:

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as I'm the second daftest member of this forum, not the first, innit.

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You're obviously trying for first place, mate. But you've a long way to go to oust me from my rightful place, like.

quote:

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G.G.V. Getalifepal

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Dum di dum di dum dum.

In the first instance I do not wish to degrade the memory or what happend to Kenneth Bigley. But we all should be reminded of the atrocities that have been carried out byAll Sidesin this appalling conflict, the only difference is, is that we all know about what has happend to Mr Bigley, and that for some people seems to make it a more heinous crime against humanity,every unnessary death is equally heinous , we will never know how many of the Iraqi people have been killed,because the Americans and no doupt our lot have seen fit to ignore the iraqi casulity numbers. In the final analysis nether ourselves or the Americans should have waged an illegal war against a Sovereign State and I for one don't think that, unfortunately these are going to be the last atrocities committed by all sides that we will eventualy hear about.If and it's only if there was any justice in this world, Bush, his poodle and Saddam would be held before a International War Crimes Court.But as always money is power and power talks and the Oil Industry has a extremely loud voice.
oldie.

Alexg,

In your opinion.

Nope. Trust me on this one Alex, it is biased propoaganda.

Cheers

Don

Oldie

I agree with you.

However, it seems to me that whenever someone makes a comment about the crimes carried out by the likes of the murderers of Mr Bigley, it is *assumed* that they believe that it's ok for us to do it to them. That's not the case at all.

Any indiscriminate killing of innocent people by British and Americans is equally as bad, by being critical of what these scum have done to Mr Bigley and others does not mean I don't believe that.

BigMick,

Your response is out of place in this particular thread mainly because of its inevitable personal abuse. Rather than respond fully and thereby offend others, I will simply say that your view of events surrounding Iraq is clearly clouded by your current dealings in Jordan.

Cheers

Don

quote:

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inevitable personal abuse

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No personal abuse, inevitable or otherwise, Don, just pointing out that you were clearly selective in your criticism of countries who have acted or failed to act out of self-interest and selective in your criticism of people who kill innocent people. Maybe this is a subconscious thing as it fits your blinkered view of things or perhaps something more blatant. God only knows.

quote:

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Your response is out of place in this particular thread

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Your gatekeeper credentials are slim to say the least so you’ll understand if I dismiss your statement. My response is entirely appropriate and clearly a damned sight more in tune than your twisted take on the rights and wrongs on the killing of innocents.

quote:

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I will simply say that your view of events surrounding Iraq is clearly clouded by your current dealings in Jordan

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As usual you are totally wrong and now apparently suffering from amnesia. I have previously debated this issue with you and my stand has been completely consistent since the birth of this whole sorry episode. It’s not scientific and I can only go on what I read, saw and heard, largely from previously pro-Western quarters in Jordan over the summer. My experience in this regard only served to confirm the rectitude of my stance, to clarify rather than cloud. I don’t understand how you can see that my experience during the summer has changed my opinion in any way, since it hasn’t actually changed in any way. Please feel free to explain your ‘reasoning’.

I can’t even begin to guess what clouds your view of this rather clear matter.

quote:

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it is biased propoaganda.

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I’m quite happy to be corrected on this one, but I was under the impression that the site that Alex linked to was run by a professional, educated multinational team who were being cautious to confirm and reference all deaths. I even have a vague memory of them being criticized for being conservative with the figures. If you have some good evidence that they are not who they appear I’d be interested to read it and more than happy to dismiss the site as an objective reference.

quote:

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Originally posted by oldie:
In the first instance I do not wish to degrade the memory or what happend to Kenneth Bigley. But we all should be reminded of the atrocities that have been carried out by_All Sides_in this appalling conflict, the only difference is, is that we all know about what has happend to Mr Bigley, and that for some people seems to make it a more heinous crime against humanity,_every unnessary death is equally heinous.

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Quite so.

My heartfelt sympathies go out to his family and friends.

Enough said really.

US foreign policy (and by extension UK foreign policy), lies, spin, propaganda, self interest, what constitutes scum when you look at all the facts and the question of what people working out there should expect (rightly or wrongly), as Deane pointed out, would be more appropriately argued in another thread.

Cheers

Harry

quote:

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Originally posted by HTK:
... as Deane pointed out, would be more appropriately argued in another thread.

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Deane, Harry,

I'm genuinely not sure whether this is true.

We all feel truly sorry for the terrible ordeal that Ken Bigley's family and friends have gone through and are going through still. I would hope that all of our sympathies go out to his family and friends.

But having said that and having reflected upon it, the thread would surely fade into archived oblivion. Perhaps Ken Bigley would have rather that we did use this thread, and by extension his name, to discuss some of the political issues around his horrific murder.

Steve M

I think the point is that the most appropriate thread in the immediate aftermath of Bigley's death would be, in effect, a Book of Condolences, and nobody would use such a thing for a political debate.

The problem is that Bigley's death is so politicised, that unless you stick to straight expressions of sympathy it's very hard not to make a political point that invites a response. e.g. "How shall we deal with these Scum?", etc.

Matthew

Well said Matthew,

Interesting twist on all of this.

At the England game on Saturday there was a minutes silence and the players wore black armbands. Now, two things:

1) A significant proportion of English sections of the crowd took that minute to celebrate their hatred of the Welsh and the Iraqis and then, subsequently, blamed their reaction to the Welsh national anthem as being a response to the Welsh causing such disruption. Putting aside my Welshness and the fact that the anthems came first (!), one can only wonder what right we have to berate others for their barbaric behaviour when 65,000 people (including women and children) find themselves in such a poisonous, hatred filled atmosphere? In 20 years of going to internationals I have never felt more at risk. Good to see that the English practice what they preach.

2) There was a strong feeling amongst the crowd that a minute of silence (however appallingly observed) was not appropriate for someone who died in unpleasant circumstances having ignored Foreign Office and other advice about his safety. The football view was that such things are devalued of meaning unless they relate to a major catastrophe or the death of either a significant national or football figure.

My condolences to his family. The rest of you should perhaps grow up IMHO.

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Hughes:
At the England game on Saturday there was a minutes silence and the players wore black armbands.Mike

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Sure it wasn’t for Brian Clough? Now that I could understand. Sickeningly predictable.

I still believe this would be better and more fully discussed in another thread. Of which there's at least one running already I believe.

Cheers

Harry