Ken Bigley.
Posted by: Tony Lockhart on 08 October 2004
Well, it looks like they went ahead and killed him anyway:
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13228464,00.html
Tony
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13228464,00.html
Tony
Posted on: 11 October 2004 by NB
Out of all this crap comes dignity,
I have never seen a more dignified family than the Bigley's. My condolences to them all.
The only way to stop this is to end the hatred and if they can do it...?
Regards
NB
I have never seen a more dignified family than the Bigley's. My condolences to them all.
The only way to stop this is to end the hatred and if they can do it...?
Regards
NB
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by Trevor Newall
nothing angers me more than when decent ordinary people going about their daily lives become innocent victims of political/religious extremists who have no respect for human life.
this is what happened to poor ken bigley.
the ira/uda/uvf, bloody suicide bombers, terrorists, and all other such vermin around the world come under that category.
such scum (and there is no other word for them) have nothing useful whatsoever to contribute to civilised society, so therefore don't deserve to inhabit the civilised world.
my heart goes out to the bigley family.
the brothers handled themselves with great dignity after having suffered such anguish.
but something has to be done to make the world we live in a safer place for decent people.
I don't think the governments of the world do enough to eradicate the threat of these extremists.
they need to get to the root of the problem, and prevent it from growing, just like when killing a troublesome weed.
because when the root is allowed to grow, and the weeds spread, it's all too late.
TN
this is what happened to poor ken bigley.
the ira/uda/uvf, bloody suicide bombers, terrorists, and all other such vermin around the world come under that category.
such scum (and there is no other word for them) have nothing useful whatsoever to contribute to civilised society, so therefore don't deserve to inhabit the civilised world.
my heart goes out to the bigley family.
the brothers handled themselves with great dignity after having suffered such anguish.
but something has to be done to make the world we live in a safer place for decent people.
I don't think the governments of the world do enough to eradicate the threat of these extremists.
they need to get to the root of the problem, and prevent it from growing, just like when killing a troublesome weed.
because when the root is allowed to grow, and the weeds spread, it's all too late.
TN
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by Simon Perry
I generally agree with what Cliff and BigMick amongst others have said. I would quibble whether or not Saudi has a worse human rights record that Iraq though...Iraq's record is truly terrible. However, what is now clear is that we rushed headlong into a war with Iraq with the key objective of securing oil in the Middle East in light of the US's need to hedge its bets with Saudi Arabia. The USA did not bomb carefully, its troops did not shoot with discretion but with reckless abandon, and an effective plan to stabilise the country once Sadam's army was defeated was not developed. As a result many many ordinary Iraqis, whose lives are worth the equal of any other peaceful person on this planet, have been killed. Many were people going about their daily business (just like those poor souls on the trains in Madrid who were blown to bits).
This has given various psychos and militants in Iraq and its neighbours a cause to fight for. Ken Bigley was being paid danger money to be in Iraq. Its a terrible tragedy but as Cliff said somewhat inevitable.
If the war in Iraq was a just war then the accidental killing of civilians would be less of an abomination. But it isn't.
Simon
This has given various psychos and militants in Iraq and its neighbours a cause to fight for. Ken Bigley was being paid danger money to be in Iraq. Its a terrible tragedy but as Cliff said somewhat inevitable.
If the war in Iraq was a just war then the accidental killing of civilians would be less of an abomination. But it isn't.
Simon
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by JohanR
Mick wrote:
Well, there is a part of the world that was living in contant danger, car bombs going off, troops of their "great leader" doing raids among the civilians etc. etc.
After the American invasion of Iraq this stopped. Not only that, the economy is picking up, people are getting payed properly (in US $, no less) people is planning for the future. Their world is safe.
Where can this be?
The northern, kurdish part of IRAQ. Seldom reported in the media (the media prefer, as we know, to report the bad things, not the good).
JohanR
quote:
I've spent the best part of the summer working in Jordan and the prevailing view is that the entire operation was disaster in it's conception, it's execution and the consequent aftermath. When I first worked on this project in 1998, most of my clients, middle class professionals. middle-ranking civil servants were pro-western and positive about the influence of the US.
Well, there is a part of the world that was living in contant danger, car bombs going off, troops of their "great leader" doing raids among the civilians etc. etc.
After the American invasion of Iraq this stopped. Not only that, the economy is picking up, people are getting payed properly (in US $, no less) people is planning for the future. Their world is safe.
Where can this be?
The northern, kurdish part of IRAQ. Seldom reported in the media (the media prefer, as we know, to report the bad things, not the good).
JohanR
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by 7V
quote:
Originally posted by Simon Perry:
... The USA did not bomb carefully, its troops did not shoot with discretion but with reckless abandon ...
Absolute nonsense. There is certainly a degree of incompetence amongst the US armed forces and mistakes are, tragically, made. However this statement is a gross misrepresentation and does nothing to further the cause of progress in Iraq or peace anywhere. You should be ashamed.
Steve M
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by Simon Perry
Steve,
I hate to break it to you but my statement was not intended to 'further the cause of progress in Iraq or peace anywhere'. Its a message board frequented by hifi enthusiasts. I have no shame expressing my opinion, which is informed by 2 individuals who have recently returned from Iraq, one British and one American, one military and one working for a humanitarian organisation.
I am not clear how not talking about this subject, but instead sweeping it away with the phrase 'mistakes are tragically made', helps peace either. We have to learn the lessons of history.
Simon
I hate to break it to you but my statement was not intended to 'further the cause of progress in Iraq or peace anywhere'. Its a message board frequented by hifi enthusiasts. I have no shame expressing my opinion, which is informed by 2 individuals who have recently returned from Iraq, one British and one American, one military and one working for a humanitarian organisation.
I am not clear how not talking about this subject, but instead sweeping it away with the phrase 'mistakes are tragically made', helps peace either. We have to learn the lessons of history.
Simon
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by 7V
quote:
Originally posted by Simon Perry:
I am not clear how not talking about this subject, but instead sweeping it away with the phrase 'mistakes are tragically made', helps peace either. We have to learn the lessons of history.
Simon, I'm not suggesting that you don't talk about this subject but to say:
quote:is to make an untrue and damaging generalization which is a slur on the character of all members of the US army, the vast majority of whom are doing their job to the best of their ability under difficult circumstances.
... The USA did not bomb carefully, its troops did not shoot with discretion but with reckless abandon ...
Out of interest, would you say that the same applies to the UK and its armed forces in Iraq or are the USA soldiers singularly evil?
Steve M
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by Trevor Newall
so enough about the 'whys' and 'wherefores'... what should be done to deal with the vile scum responsible for these atrocities?
how can we weed out this vermin and prevent them from being a threat to the safety of our future generations?
TN
how can we weed out this vermin and prevent them from being a threat to the safety of our future generations?
TN
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by Simon Perry
The same (as in the way the war has been executed) does not apply. The UK is engaged in far less bombing activity, and has deployed tactics in its fighting that has limited civilian casulties. I did not say that the USA soldiers were singularly evil. Badly managed yes. With a morally bankrupt "Commander in Chief" yes. With a reliance on advanced munitions that take a terrible toll on the civilian population yes.
The USA has some of the best soliders in the world but this is restricted to their elite. The average competence level is not high, as is inevitable given its size and the basic training provided.
I do however consider it an act of evil to invade a country in this manner. I also hold Blair accountable the same way.
Simon
The USA has some of the best soliders in the world but this is restricted to their elite. The average competence level is not high, as is inevitable given its size and the basic training provided.
I do however consider it an act of evil to invade a country in this manner. I also hold Blair accountable the same way.
Simon
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by Simon Perry
Trevor,
For a start we need half decent implementation instead of hot air from Bush and Blair. Shall we compare the number of troops in Iraq with those seeking to eradicate Bin Laden and his remaining fighters in Afghanistan? Anyone?
Simon
For a start we need half decent implementation instead of hot air from Bush and Blair. Shall we compare the number of troops in Iraq with those seeking to eradicate Bin Laden and his remaining fighters in Afghanistan? Anyone?
Simon
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by 7V
quote:
Originally posted by Simon Perry:
For a start we need half decent implementation instead of hot air from Bush and Blair. Shall we compare the number of troops in Iraq with those seeking to eradicate Bin Laden and his remaining fighters in Afghanistan? Anyone?
Simon,
I'm not sure that a comparison between Iraq and Afghanistan is meaningful. I believe that both Bush and Blair would like to withdraw their troops as soon as they can. It has clearly been an ill-conceived and awful campaign. However, they would like to see the elections take place first and then arrange a withdrawal as soon as is practicable.
Clearly, the Iraq election will not be ideal but will hopefully be better than nothing and will provide a base that the Iraqis can build on. If anyone can think of a better future for Iraq, please let us know. Of course, for right or for wrong, we have to start with the situation that we have.
quote:
Originally posted by Trevor Newall:
how can we weed out this vermin and prevent them from being a threat to the safety of our future generations?
Trevor,
We will not be able to 'weed out' the terrorists, although my view is that the West should keep trying to destroy their leaders and infra-structure, where possible and should continue to apply pressure to governments that are supporting or harbouring them. However, as we all know, new volunteers are continually being recruited to their numbers.
One of the keys to improving the situation is (and I think we're all agreed here) is to find a solution to the problem of Israel and Palestine. My view is that neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians can achieve this without help, whatever their intentions or desires. The United Nations are useless and Europe is no better. It has to be the USA who intervenes and a firm but fair hand is required. Bush hasn't shown any inclination to attempt to resolve the situation and one can only hope that Kerry will be better. It isn't easy. Clinton tried hard but failed.
Will this solve the 'vermin' problem? No. There will still be terrorists who are against the USA, against the West and against Israel, whatever the resolution of the Israel/Palestine/Iraq/Afghanistan issues. Following the Egyptian bombing, Egypt has stated that it wants an international conference on dealing with terrorism. There is also an increasing movement amongst the Islamic and Arab leaders to bring this problem to an end. This is our best hope.
Steve Margolis
defy convention - make music
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by Trevor Newall
quote:
Originally posted by Simon Perry:
Trevor,
For a start we need half decent implementation instead of hot air from Bush and Blair. Shall we compare the number of troops in Iraq with those seeking to eradicate Bin Laden and his remaining fighters in Afghanistan? Anyone?
simon, I think we know the answer to that one, and I share your viewpoint.
what I'd like to know is how these extremists have been allowed to become so powerful over the years to an extent that they can exert such authority over, not only our government, as witnessed in the saga of ken bigley, but on all other world governments?
I cannot understand why these vermin have been allowed to grow and flourish, and their threat not destroyed.
surely the powers that be, in various countries, know who these extremists are, and could nullify their threat at an earlier stage?
something is amiss, and I'd love to dig as deep as is necessary to uncover the *ROOT CAUSE* of the problem.
why is the world breeding these extremists?
only when we know the answer to that question, can we begin to uncover the root cause of the problem, and do something effective about it, instead of what seems like apathetically accepting it's just part of the world we live in.
TN
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by bjorne
quote:
Originally posted by 7V:
There is also an increasing movement amongst the Islamic and Arab leaders to bring this problem to an end. This is our best hope.
Steve Margolis
This is true and gets far to little attention. We must remember that an overwhelming majority of the world's muslims do not support terrorism.
Also what Trevor Newall says: We need to find out why the world is breeding these extremist groups and then try to find solutions. I personally believe much of the hate comes from people that suffer under their corrupt regimes that live well from oilincomes while the people live in poverty. Couple this with propaganda from certain groups and off we go. Of course the answer is more complex than this..
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by pingu
Trevor said
"how can we weed out this vermin and prevent them from being a threat to the safety of our future generations?"
Errr, there are "vermin" in every society. What the USA and Brits did was destroy the fabric of law and order and let these guys out and off the leash. How do you get rid of them??? Well I suppose you could try to install a puppet government and keep troops there for twenty years, but then again the French and Yanks tried that in Vietnam, n'est-ce pas?
cj
"how can we weed out this vermin and prevent them from being a threat to the safety of our future generations?"
Errr, there are "vermin" in every society. What the USA and Brits did was destroy the fabric of law and order and let these guys out and off the leash. How do you get rid of them??? Well I suppose you could try to install a puppet government and keep troops there for twenty years, but then again the French and Yanks tried that in Vietnam, n'est-ce pas?
cj
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by BrianD
quote:
and let these guys out and off the leash.
Weren't "these guys out and off the leash" already?
What do you think should have been done instead of what was done?
Just curious.
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by oldie
Trevor,
This is a very emotive subject and the rights and wrongs of the situation could be debated for an eternity and still not all would agree.As I stated earlier in the thread, I do not wish to Degrade either the memory of Kenneth Bigely, what happend to him or his family,the way of his death or the other thousands of innocent people that have been massacred, Maimed or Killed on all sides in this illegal and inconceived conflict. One must remember that historicaly yesterdays terrorist is todays freedom fighter and tomorrows political leader,and it matters not that our leaders state that they will not/never negotiate with them, they always do in the end,and the list of these instances goes on and on, far to long for me to bother to type out, that is even if I could remember how to spell their names. Indigenous people that are unfortunatly caught up in these conflicts are just used as pawns, cannon fodder by the people who are supposed to represent the interests of the majority, but we all know that this conflict was about greed and the need by Bush to control Iraq's oil.Just a couple of final points
(1) The people of America can make the world a much safer place by,just not voteing in Bush and his megalomaniacs next time.
(2)A bit below the belt I know but, I wonder if the outcome would have been the same if it was Blair's son that had been held instead of a old man trying to get enough money together to live in peace for the rest of his life
(3)Historicaly to our eternal shame either America or ourselves have Trained, Armed and Supported, or all three, virtually every despot or tyrant that has walked the face of this earth and they in turn have always turned when it suited them and bitten the hand that fed them so to speak, our problem is that we never learn.
The one last comment I wish to make, is that in my opinion, both Bush and Blair have unjustified blood on their hands and should be taken before a International Court of Justice for the atrocities they have ordered to be carried out in allegedy our names.
oldie.
This is a very emotive subject and the rights and wrongs of the situation could be debated for an eternity and still not all would agree.As I stated earlier in the thread, I do not wish to Degrade either the memory of Kenneth Bigely, what happend to him or his family,the way of his death or the other thousands of innocent people that have been massacred, Maimed or Killed on all sides in this illegal and inconceived conflict. One must remember that historicaly yesterdays terrorist is todays freedom fighter and tomorrows political leader,and it matters not that our leaders state that they will not/never negotiate with them, they always do in the end,and the list of these instances goes on and on, far to long for me to bother to type out, that is even if I could remember how to spell their names. Indigenous people that are unfortunatly caught up in these conflicts are just used as pawns, cannon fodder by the people who are supposed to represent the interests of the majority, but we all know that this conflict was about greed and the need by Bush to control Iraq's oil.Just a couple of final points
(1) The people of America can make the world a much safer place by,just not voteing in Bush and his megalomaniacs next time.
(2)A bit below the belt I know but, I wonder if the outcome would have been the same if it was Blair's son that had been held instead of a old man trying to get enough money together to live in peace for the rest of his life
(3)Historicaly to our eternal shame either America or ourselves have Trained, Armed and Supported, or all three, virtually every despot or tyrant that has walked the face of this earth and they in turn have always turned when it suited them and bitten the hand that fed them so to speak, our problem is that we never learn.
The one last comment I wish to make, is that in my opinion, both Bush and Blair have unjustified blood on their hands and should be taken before a International Court of Justice for the atrocities they have ordered to be carried out in allegedy our names.
oldie.
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by Nigel Cavendish
There is no answer to this problem, there never has been, nor will there ever be.
Fanaticism, religious or otherwise, is not by definition controllable. Fanatics pay no heed to government or to law.
There are choices:
kill as many as you can - but that produces more fanatics who know they have to kill as many as they can before they themselves are killed and will no doubt target those they see as the threat;
protect yourself - as a country close your borders; as an individual go nowhere outside your national borders or accept the risks of travel and don't expect your government to help you;
find out what the fanatics want you to do or stop doing and capitulate - has anyone tried that yet?
cheers
Nigel
Fanaticism, religious or otherwise, is not by definition controllable. Fanatics pay no heed to government or to law.
There are choices:
kill as many as you can - but that produces more fanatics who know they have to kill as many as they can before they themselves are killed and will no doubt target those they see as the threat;
protect yourself - as a country close your borders; as an individual go nowhere outside your national borders or accept the risks of travel and don't expect your government to help you;
find out what the fanatics want you to do or stop doing and capitulate - has anyone tried that yet?
cheers
Nigel
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by pingu
BrianD said "What do you think should have been done instead of what was done?"
Brian
I am no expert on invading other countries and replacing their regimes. Sadly Bush and Blair are equally unqualified. If it had been down to me I would have waited for the Iraqi people themselves to rebel.
As I am no expert on this forum, I have to say that I am puzzled by the fact that many people disagree with me by posting "what would you do then" type replies. So on the basis that this is commonplace:
Brian, what would you have done then? Just curious of course
cj
Brian
I am no expert on invading other countries and replacing their regimes. Sadly Bush and Blair are equally unqualified. If it had been down to me I would have waited for the Iraqi people themselves to rebel.
As I am no expert on this forum, I have to say that I am puzzled by the fact that many people disagree with me by posting "what would you do then" type replies. So on the basis that this is commonplace:
Brian, what would you have done then? Just curious of course
cj
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by 7V
quote:
Originally posted by oldie:
... but we all know that this conflict was about greed and the need by Bush to control Iraq's oil.
Oldie,
The trouble is that our society is totally dependent on access to oil. If we didn't get access to sufficient oil, the effect on our society, including mass unemployment, mass bankruptcies, etc., etc. would dwarf the catastrophic consequences of the miners' strike.
Isn't this another one of those unpalatable truths that we have to face up to?
It is to our enormous shame that we have made pitifully little effort to develop sustainable alternatives - even leaving aside the issue that global warming could be making our planet unsuitable for human habitation in any case.
Steve M
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by BrianD
quote:
Originally posted by pingu:
Brian
If it had been down to me I would have waited for the Iraqi people themselves to rebel.
Fine. But do you believe that was realistic given the regime of Saddam?
quote:
I have to say that I am puzzled by the fact that many people disagree with me by posting "what would you do then" type replies.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with anything you said. I just believe it is easy to criticise what was actually done, but to have no definite suggestions for what should have been done about the situation in Iraq.
quote:
Brian, what would you have done then? Just curious of course
I haven't a clue. But then I'm not being critical of what was done, I'm more interested in what should be done now to help the people of Iraq and other countries affected by what's already happened.
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by Simon Perry
quote:
I am no expert on invading other countries and replacing their regimes. Sadly Bush and Blair are equally unqualified.
A great quote. Absolutely.
AlexG,
Have you read "Under the Banner of Heaven?" I am reading it at the moment. It is about the development of Mormonism in the USA but its relevance goes much wider to give an understanding of the Christian right in the USA.
"No Western nation is as religion soaked as ours, where 9 out of 10 of us love God and are loved by him in return. That mutual passion centers our society and demands some understanding, if our doom-eager society is to be understood at all."
Simon
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by 7V
quote:
Originally posted by BrianD:quote:
Originally posted by pingu:
Brian, what would you have done then? Just curious of course
I haven't a clue. But then I'm not being critical of what was done, I'm more interested in what should be done now to help the people of Iraq and other countries affected by what's already happened.
Absolutely, Brian.
Whether or not one is critical of what was done, the issue is what should be done now. It seems to me that the majority of people, here, in the media and elsewhere, are far more interested in the former than the latter. It would be so much more constructive if it was the other way around.
Steve M
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by BrianD
Oldie
I don't see any problem with admitting we need a supply of oil.
Is it the actual conflict and the lives lost you're bothered about, or is it that the politicians saw fit to lie about the reasons instead of admitting that the world needs oil?
quote:
but we all know that this conflict was about greed and the need by Bush to control Iraq's oil.
I don't see any problem with admitting we need a supply of oil.
Is it the actual conflict and the lives lost you're bothered about, or is it that the politicians saw fit to lie about the reasons instead of admitting that the world needs oil?
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by BrianD
quote:
Whether or not one is critical of what was done, the issue is what should be done now. It seems to me that the majority of people, here, in the media and elsewhere, are far more interested in the former than the latter. It would be so much more constructive if it was the other way around.
Now that is a great quote, imo.
Posted on: 12 October 2004 by oldie
Brian,
It can't possibly have escaped your notice, but both ourselves and Bush have our own supply of oil,I believe that "we" are still even a net exporter of oil, what Bush and his backers wanted was greater proffits from a increased supply of oil and Blair just went along with it,in fact according to reports Blair agreed to support Bush over 12 months before the invasion took place and that was quite a while before he started being so economical with the truth.
The deaths of thousands of innocent people on all sides can not be justified by the greed of a few and the need for a greater control by one country of another sovereign states resorces.
oldie.
It can't possibly have escaped your notice, but both ourselves and Bush have our own supply of oil,I believe that "we" are still even a net exporter of oil, what Bush and his backers wanted was greater proffits from a increased supply of oil and Blair just went along with it,in fact according to reports Blair agreed to support Bush over 12 months before the invasion took place and that was quite a while before he started being so economical with the truth.
The deaths of thousands of innocent people on all sides can not be justified by the greed of a few and the need for a greater control by one country of another sovereign states resorces.
oldie.