Mana or Hutter

Could you add a choice: haven't been able to compare the different stands in my system yet.

Ciao!

Willem

I used the all five possibilities in the pole question.

Arie

Not many here I suspect.

Allan

PS and even then, it's only their opinion

[This message was edited by Allan Probin on SUNDAY 14 January 2001 at 01:25.]

Arie

[This message was edited by Arie_Gur on SUNDAY 14 January 2001 at 07:32.]

If my feelings are correct and Naim recommend to Hutter - then the Mana upgrade possibility maybe not as valuable as other think, bear in mind that it can be a great commercial idea to sell the stand in the way mana do.

Arie

I wonder! It seems to me that I'm the only one that shouts against the Mana propoganda here and now it seems that other members are feeling that talking about mana may be not based upon truely
objective opinion.

Arie, it seems you are rather biased against Mana for some reason, and rather biased to believe whatever Naim tell you. Have you tried the supports yourself? What are these so-called Mana propagandists gaining, apart from, to them, a much more satisfying musical experience. Why are you so keen to disbelieve them?

Kevin

I only tried a QS once. It sure did make a differende. Individual instruments were easier to
follow and the low end seem to tighten up a little
more. In short, the music was more relaxed and
easier to listen to.
I never tried Mana or Hutter. (it looks like they don't sell Mana here in Holland)
But I have to confess that I hate the looks of Mana and also (especially) Hutter.
My deale always told me to avoid racks with glass shelves. I did like the looks of the Projekt and/or Quadraspire racks though!

Now, I know it's the sounds that make the difference, but since (well, to me it is) it's
also suppost to be a piece of furniture I think
Mana as well as Hutter look awful.

Greetings,

Alco

I was told too to be very careful with glass
shelves - I wonder if all Mana fans here did check the difference between Mana and high quality
MDF racks.

Arie

[This message was edited by bob atherton on SUNDAY 14 January 2001 at 13:23.]

Arie,

It really is impossible to be objective about stands, they are just so subjective. I used to use Mana, I now use Hutter. I personally feel that Hutter is the way to go, but it's just my opinion.

BTW , don't think that Hutter is made from MDF. It is in fact a very carefully constructed spruce laminate, beautifully veneered, & varnished in some very special stuff.

Bob.

I've had QS and Mana in my time, along with those other notable runners-up, Target WallShelf and Pine Coffee Table.

I only ever had the target on loan; it was a notable improvement from the coffee table, but nothing special, really. When my friend asked for the shelf back, I bought a QS six tier rack. I was actually very happy with this until I heard a Mana rack. It was so much better that I had to get one. I had both racks on 'overlap' for a month or so, I forget how long precisely. Myself and an audio friend did some comparisons, and the we found some interesting things:

I have (still have, it's on the to-be-replaced list) an old Arcam 7 CD player; functional, if nothing special. My friend has a CD3.5. We found:

CD3.5 on QS rack sounded worse than Arcam on Mana (Phase 1). CD3.5 on Mana sounded infinitely better than Arcam on QS. Both on QS - Arcam was worse, by a tangible, if not enormous margin. Both on Mana? CD3.5 was better, but again only by a tangible margin.

Arcam on QS sounded way worse than Arcam on Mana, Naim on QS sounded way worse than Naim on Mana.

The biggest difference we noticed was that between the stands rather than the CD players. It seemed to our ears that the Mana was 'boosting' the performance of whatever units were on it.

A couple of months later, we tried the same thing with his Phase 2 table; the same things were noted - the extra Mana had a greater influence on the musicality and performance than the individual differences of the players themselves.

Therefore, instead of buying a new CD player (as I had planned at that time) I bought more Mana.

I will buy a new CD soon; there is a limit to how much Mana I would want in my living room; to my eye, the Quadraspire racks are a far more pretty item to have in the home. However, I try to listen with my ears, not my eyes. I felt bad; how could a black, iron rack oust my beloved QS?

It could, it would and it did. One of those occasions where I realised that I had taken the wrong path. Your mileage may vary, of course!

John

PS. Interesting aside: a local high-end store, Music Mill, doesn't sell Mana, but chooses Mana as its rack of choice for demoing its more expensive gear (Krell, etc. - they don't sell Naim, sadly). I was in yesterday demoing a couple of pairs of Sonus Fabers

quote:

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Now that is the kind of direct comparison of stands that I have been waiting to hear about!

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Again, a disclaimer; this test was never intended to be a rigorous analysis of the Mana effect or the Quadraspire effect or whatever; we were just too audio nuts checking it out for ourselves (given that we had a rare chance to do a direct comparison).

quote:

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Now there is only the confusion of what Mana to buy first? I currently have a 250/hi/72/Rotel 971 cd player, Where to start, and at what cost?
It would appear that I need to start with a 4 tier amp stand. Anyone have a cost estimate for this particular rack?

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It's around £500 including delivery, which is worth every penny. I recently came to the absurd realisation that I've spent over two grand on Mana since last June... that's more than I've spent on kit to go on it during the same period!

I would give Damian at Mana a phone, tell him I sent you! He's a helpful guy, who'd be only too happy to talk over the various options open to you. I think the rack would be a wise move, and it's upgradable too, by the addition of relatively cheap soundstages - each giving a 'boost' in a hicap or new CD player kind of a way... that's why I stick with my Arcam for now - I could probably go out and spend loads on a full Naim system, but for me it makes sense to make whatever kit I've got last until I can extract no more - that's the point I move up. That, plus the cost - to improve on my kit, I'd be looking at pre-amp and a 250, plus a new CD player, which would probably set me back three grand all in - you can buy a lot of Mana for that

HTH,

John

i think i symphathise with your dilemna. you really need some help in selecting supports for your system.

however, don't take on so by thinking there is anything sinister about mana promoting their products vigorously and naim for doing the same. its commercial sense. its really helpful that paul s stated his preference for hutter. a long time ago, linn stated their preference for a ikea type coffee table for their turntable, but we all went our own ways and used all manner (oops, not mana) of supports, including good old sound ord, and later, audiotech. the beauty of this forum is that we get to eat our cake and have it. the manufacturer may or may not recommend an accessory -- but we the addicts try all sorts in the quest for the ultimate musical reproduction. i am sure you have followed similar debates on interconnects and speaker cables.

a poll that may help you is what supports people actually have and (perhaps) what they think of them, and whether they are thinking of changing soon. however, the last point has been covered by another poll and it looks like the majority, on the basis of the small sample, are on the lookout for new supports.

if it helps, my nephew (master will) has ordered isoblue for his nice naim system with a nap300 power amp and cdi. i am going to dip my toe in the water on mana sound frame. we will let you know how we get on. at the end of the day, you will have to decide on the basis of all the (very useful) information coming from other members of this forum. note that there are people who have changed from mana to hutter.

i have to tell you that i am a bit ashamed of myself for even considering the idea of another support. i have QS and Projekt. My system is sounding pretty good right now, especially after recent re-config. however, my cd2 was positively trounced by my nephew's cdi, and i have a vivid recollection of what 135's can do over the 250, and i am left quivering for another fix ....

enjoy...

ken

You are not the only one who has railed against the Mana propaganda. I prefer the Base stand I have to the Mana Reference--the Mana is, to my ears, rather obvious and pushy. I find Mana is like turning up the contrast (or "picture") control on a TV--it looks brighter and better, but it is not more "real". Some people love Mana and that's great--others love Hutter, Base, QS, etc. Live and let live ! And as an aside, in my experience, the people who shout the loudest are invariably those who are the least secure.

Cheers,

Bob

Most of us here love Naim equipment. I also noticed that some of us love Naim like they are partners in Naim - these adiviced me not to talk too much about the "political" problems between
Naim and mana (I don't know if there are such problems) because it may cause damage or something like that.

I realy don't like to be among people who are acting in a gregarious way.
When I was new here - I even tried to find members that are talking against Naim - but there arn't such. I learned that it is okay because the reason we are here is that we like Naim.

But I can't stand such a behavior for for a stuff
not made by Naim.

There is a forum for Mana. A very nice forum, nice people who are familiare with Naim.
Why talking about Naim here all the time if not trying to force our minds and bias it for Mana.

Farther more, I'm sure that most of the members who own Mana didn't test it properly because it is very difficult. So how can a person say that is should be illegal to sell a CDX withaout a Mana soundframe ? did he check all the possibilities? .

Those who own Mana are posting about it here again and again - I'm sure that if a creature from the outer space will read the posts here he will think that Mana is the only stands manufacturer in the world and for sure he will be taken by surprise to find out that there is a beautiful forum especialy for Mana made by Mana.

Those who own mana - are trying to bias us for it and I don't understand why - because I'm saying it again and again - I'm sure most of them didn't test all the other leading stands manufacturers (I learned here that there are at least 4 of them).

So what is wrong with this poll ? Lets try to hear people who think that Mana is not the whole world - and maybe we will learn that Mana IS the whole world - it is okay with me.

And a last word for those who think I'm not secure to find out for myself - I promise you I have a great confidence in myself but I'm trying to look for an objective opinions.
Beeing objective and gathered we can learn a lot from ourself - so I suggested and suggest again we can plane TOGETHER a poll posts that we can learn from - and maybe it is better than posting poll according to one member idea.

You can rarely find a person who is more objective than I'm almost in any area - that is what I think about myself.

Arie

quote:

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Therefore my query is. Why is Paul now personally stating his preference for Hutter? What has changed? According to Paul, Naim staff don't become involved in promoting one particular brand.

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Paul stated that he personally replaced Mana with Hutter.

This is not inconsistent with a statement that stands are a personal choice, depending on what you want, and they cannot give any sort of blanket recommendation.

cheers, Martin

quote:

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Anie-ap also stated that the Mana money back guarentee was apprciated by its kind

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People around the globe are posting to Naim forum - can you please tell me in what countries the Mana money back guarentee takes place ?

In Israel it is not !

Arie

supports are important, but at this point in time i dont believe they are a first order effect. of course, i am still thinking about it and absorbing all the observations and theories that other forum members are posting, but i havent seen anything that convinces me that stands are more important than the equipment that sits on them.

i am sure you will be equally happy with either hutter or mana. hell, i have humble QS's and projekts and i am happy!! assess what people are saying. if you manage a demo, do so. i am sure you can order mana on trial by special arrangement and decide for yourself regardless of what anyone else says...

please, do enjoy your system, AS IS, today...

ken

I use a cheap metal mdf 2 3 shelves stands and a self built 2 shelves all mdf stand for the flat and 140 (I also have a tape and a dvd).

I enjoy my system and it plays very good, I'm
think to buy a new good stand .

Arie

quote:

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I agree that most people will not have tried every stand available under the sun to be a qualified expert

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Can't agree more - so when someone thinks Mana is great he must start with "I think that mana is"
or "To my opinion Mana is..." etc.

Arie

As the majority of us love Naim - and as Naim excel in manufacturing precise equipment (so I guess my 72 has the same sound as another 72 that was sold in London) the repeatation on the idea that everyone has his own taste may be not exact in this forum (maybe we all have quite a similar taste).
I say it only as an idea to think about.

Arie

quote:

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Why is Paul now personally stating his preference for Hutter? What has changed?

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Members wonder why Paul S. recommend Hutter after he was recommended Mana - what happened they ask.
One answer was it happened due to "political" problems between Naim and Mana.

The answer maybe very simple:

Willem told me that Hutter is in the market only for the last year.
Another member told me that when Paul S. recommended Mana Hutter was not on the Market.

So maybe it is just as simple as this: Paul S. believed that Mana is the best stand. A new manufacturer arrived and manufactured a better stand to his opinion. No political, no new approach by Naim not a high philosophy.

Arie