who likes what music?

"Its just the people who go on about 'intelligence' in music generally have
a condescending attitude to what they consider unintelligent (Cheesey) music. I just don't like their 'better than you' attitude."

Doesn't do much for me either, but that doesn't make the music any worse! Wagner again comes as an obvious example: from accounts I've read he thought he was doing things greater than anyone else, almost certainly had a condescending attitude to most people given the extent he used them and also almost certainly felt his music was not merely underscored by intelligence, but genius. He comes across, in fact, as pretty unpleasant even without his rather unpleasant theories on race, but that's irrelevant to what goes on to the stave, much of which is sublime and magnificent, and reliant on considerably more intelligence in its creation and form than, for example, a 12 bar blues jam (and no, I'm not saying that necessarily makes it better).

Why is someone who considers their preferred music better because it has more elaborately designed structures any worse or more condescending than someone who considers certain music better because it has, say, a different approach to humour in the lyrics which they consider "proper"?

Pete.

but that's precisely my point - they are as bad as each other. 'Better' is a personal thing. Frank Zappa is no better than Steps. Some people prefer one, some prefer the other. Its the people who insist on telling you that one is better (generally on grounds of intelligence or something ammounting to the same thing) that I was poking fun at.

So saying something is better because of the quality of hummour is okay (Smiths v. Zappa), but saying something is better because of the innate intelligence is wrong (Zappa v. Steps)?

Pete.

No just assuming something that I haven't said.

I have said that I think the Smiths are more humerous to me than Zappa, and that I like them much better.

I have not said that either is 'better' or that Zappa is more intelligent than Steps.

You are the one infering innate quality based on your preferences

I've said specifically that neither is 'better' than the other. And I'm saying that by saying that Zappa is more 'intelligent' than Steps, you are implying that he is 'better', which is just snobbery.

"He may think that they're funny (you may too), but you are mistaken. For proper humour in music see the works of Morrissey & Marr."

Is it really such an unjustified inference to think your use of "proper humour", and saying that I'm mistaken thinking FZ's lyrics funny, doesn't constitute saying the same thing as the Smiths are better at humour than FZ, period, as opposed to merely your preference? There's nothing in that paragraph that suggests anything other than an absolute stance.

And I have specifically pointed out in this thread that though I consider some music has more intelligence than others, that in no way infers it's better. For example:

"This doesn't necessarily make it either pretentious or good/bad, it's just an approach which may pay off or may not"

"reliant on considerably more intelligence in its
creation and form than, for example, a 12 bar blues jam (and no, I'm not saying that necessarily makes it better)."

And since I'll just as happily listen to the Ramones as Wagner, I even practice as well as preach the thought.

So my saying there's more intelligence in FZ's music than in Steps' isn't actually that much more controversial than saying Wagner's music is more complex than Satie's. It is, the complexity or lack of may influence people's opinions/preferences, just as differing levels of intelligence might, it's not necessarily a mark of quality (look at all the people who can't get anything bar a headache out of serial music, for example). Your saying that I'm inferring FZ must be better is just a case of not reading what I wrote: quote me back where I've said otherwise.

Pete.

[This message was edited by Pete on THURSDAY 07 December 2000 at 15:16.]

Well, here it is.

My musical taste is very broad:

From (alternative) country to blues, from singer/songwriter to pop and just about everything in between.

I must say, I really hate R&B,Funk,Soul,Disco,
House,dance and the commercial top-40 junk.

In a few words. I Love american-Roots music.

See: www.alcopaladin.friendpages.com

Greetings,undefined

...I've found that IME FZ fans tend to be among the most intelligent and musically appreciative fans I've ever come across. A lot of people are put off by the lyrics, but an equal number are turned onto the music by its originality, interpretation, 'statistial density' and implicit intelligence.

I've yet to hear another artist come consistently close to the levels of innovation and density of creative composition as Frank Zappa offered on most any of his records.

John (who has around 50 Zappa titles, maybe more)

Steve, you say "I try to avoid purile rubbish " and yet you listen to The Smiths and The Slits.

Shurely shome mishtake?

steve

No mistake - as we all know about your musical (lack of) taste.

For interesting intelligent music - you don't get much better that the Slits. Certainly knocks old man FZ into a cocked hat.

Here we have the nub of the case. What is taste? Who are the arbiters of it and what gives them that right?

My taste (obviously, it seems) does not agree with yours. Why should I accept yours as superior? I think that FZ makes clever music that you can't seem to grasp. You make a virtue out of the miserable whining of The Smiths and the talentless caterwauling of The Slits. Not much mutual ground there, then.

Oasis - One good album, WTSMG?, and one classic single, Wonderwall. Otherwise not much, other than tabloid press fodder. Manchester? Naff all else apart from The Hollies.

Dance music - To my ears it's a monotonous, tuneless noise. Perhaps this has something to do with not giving a monkeys about either dancing or clubbing…

Humour in music? Try Tom Lehrer, Spike Jones or Mike Absalom.

steve

As we all know - all great bands come from Manchester ... except the ones that don't that prove the rule.

quote:

---

To my ears it's a monotonous, tuneless noise

---

sounds like heavy metal to me. Dance music is groovy and swinging ... and is better for your soul than Frank's silly beard.

Obviously our tastes are different - otherwise I wouldn't listen to any music

all the great bands come from manchester? down to london to finish off your sentance. rolling stones, the clash, pistols, t-rex, the jam, madness, the kinks just to start. manchester, take that, norther uproar or the usual smiths, joy division, buzzcocks and oasis?
with music i like to be entertained so dance music is great. i am used to it so i can easily identify all the subtle variations. repetitive, well yes, thats the way people dance. i was listening to the radio the other night waiting for a show on northern soul (thats blackpool and wigan, not manchester) and i heard 1/2 an hour of blues old and new. to me it all sounded the same and bored me to tears. sorry but thats the way it is.
pop music is great but is only designed to be listened to and thrown away, some of it sticks with us and becomes a fond memory.
zappa, beefheart etc dont do anything for me, most of the time i dont care about lyrics. bowies cut up techniques mean that a lot of his lyrics are almost nonsense but the songs are still great?
ashle

Hard House, and Progressive Trance that's the ticket, the musical-complexity of this genre is made for a good Naim system to unravel.
Surprised Naim don't go for this market (no not pill-popping teenagers), but genuine 'night-club' people who find they only listen to this type of music in clubs, as only a Naim system (in my experience) can truly reproduce with the same emotion, and PRaT.

It's like bringing the experience home, without having to go to Home (London nightclub for you country pub folk).

Not telling Naim how to do their market positioning/advertising, but I have long thought this is an untapped area. Many friends with the same taste in music 'love' my system in context of this genre.

naheed...

Since you're talking about Zappa, I can't help mentioning "Joe's Garage", my favorite FZ album. It never fails to put a smile on my face.

<<Groovy and swinging>> Oh, come on. Those terms were daft when they were invented in the 60s. Anyway, why care about such things? They're as pointless and shallow as fashion.

<<FZ's silly beard>> From what I've seen of the purveyors of dance music music his taste in facial hair was pretty tame. And as for the ridiculousness of haircuts and glasses, well...

<<hard house>> I've got one of them. It where my system lives and doesn't fall down when the wind blows...

steve