Spur not Ring

Posted by: Edouard S. on 12 October 2004

I refer to the following post which was made on another thread :

Spur not Ring

- A spur is very different to a normal ring main: you have a much heavier-duty supply, hence more transient power capability (a 32A ring is only 2.5mm2 whereas a 32A spur is 6mm2 - Naim poweramps are greedy for those extra amps...).
- Other equipment will cause a far more significant voltage drop on a small mm2 supply (i.e. ordinary ring) than they can on the main supply you have coming into the consumer unit

- Also you don't have nasty loops, particularly with the earth, which can generate nasty constant humming.

- Whilst noise can travel via the consumer unit, it is far less significant than if the noisy unit is on the same supply. This is easily demonstrated by plugging something noisy (such as a freezer or hairdryer) and listening for clicks. This is, however, only the most obvious aspect of noise - switched-mode powersupplies (e.g. computers) kick out all sorts of high-frequency rubbish that the traditional Naim powersupply design just lets straight through, causing lots of unnecessary and thus audibily damaging work to be done by the pre-amp and amps. Again, a seperate spur reduces this, as the noise spends most of its time running around its own little ring (electrons like to take the simplest route, but lets not get into quantum mechanics...)

- Yes there is lots of Voodoo in HiFi, but this is one of those things that in 99% of houses will make a significant difference in overall cleanliness and clarity.


Anyway, without trying to be rude or patronising, a domestic electrician is trained to a basic level, with a strong emphasis on following detailed guidelines and straightforward practical techniques - their theoretical grounding is little more than ohms law : to take a similar example, Newtonian Physics is fine for throwing a ball, but you wouldn't want to go to the moon without adding Einstinian Relativity...

I have worked with many electricians who have been working for 20-40 years and never had to deal with 3-phase beyond the incomer board, and that's far more fundamental than what we're discussing! (they are quite happy to let worry about the maths of layout and load-balancing, and I wouldn't dream of telling them how to run a cable or wire a plug!)

End of quote.

Now I am having an electrician install two seperate spurs (rings ?) in my living room for the system. Does that mean that for best results I should ask him to install what he was planning to, only with thicker cable, and if yes, how thick, or is there more to this that I didn't get ?

I am totally useless with this kind of issue, and I don't even really know what many terms refer to, so please keep this in mind when answering ! El layman here ! Smile

Thanks,

Edouard S.
Posted on: 13 October 2004 by Laurie Saunders
quote:
Does that mean that for best results I should ask him to install what he was planning to, only with thicker cable, and if yes, how thick, or is there more to this that I didn't get ?


this one has been "done to death"

I (and others) maintain that for best results, dedicated 10mm2 spurs ,one for each powered box, gives best results.


In addition, any steps that can be taken to reduce impedance, ie breaks, conectors, plugs ect are beneficial. Also, reducing "sharing" is helpful in this regard. ....even as far as having a dedicated Consumer Unit for the hi-fi

laurie S
Posted on: 13 October 2004 by Edouard S.
quote:
Originally posted by Laurie Saunders:

I (and others) maintain that for best results, dedicated 10mm2 spurs ,one for each powered box, gives best results.


In addition, any steps that can be taken to reduce impedance, ie breaks, conectors, plugs ect are beneficial. Also, reducing "sharing" is helpful in this regard. ....even as far as having a dedicated Consumer Unit for the hi-fi

laurie S


Well, installing one spur per box is not really an option at this point. I have to keep it to one spur for the system (and another for the television/subwoofer). For these two spurs, do I simply have to ask the electrician to install it with bigger cables than what he was probably intending to use (such as the width you suggest, Laurie) ?

Also, what steps can be taken to reduce impedance, as you suggest ?

I have searched the forum, and I intend to do so again, but I need some pretty quick answers, as the electrician is working right now !

Thanks,

Edouard S.
Posted on: 13 October 2004 by Emil F
Edouard,

If you can install only two spurs, then use 10mm2 cables. I hope you can do this. If this is impossible 6mm2 is a minimum.

Do you have a separate CU for the system? Memera is best for CU and 32A circuit breakers.

Emil
Posted on: 13 October 2004 by Edouard S.
Is the CU the electric board ?

If so, I do not have a seperate one. I will inquire into the costs, but at this stage it seems doubtful !

Thanks,

Edouard S.
Posted on: 13 October 2004 by Emil F
Yes, you can add later a Memera consumer unit for the system. As Tom wrote you may need some information and diagrams for the installation. Give us an e-mail address and you'll receive them immediately.

Emil
Posted on: 13 October 2004 by Laurie Saunders
Edouard

quote:
Also, what steps can be taken to reduce impedance, as you suggest ?

I have searched the forum, and I intend to do so again, but I need some pretty quick answers, as the electrician is working right now




I have sent you a message on yor private topics

laurie
Posted on: 13 October 2004 by Edouard S.
quote:
Originally posted by Emil F.:
Yes, you can add later a Memera consumer unit for the system. As Tom wrote you may need some information and diagrams for the installation. Give us an e-mail address and you'll receive them immediately.

Emil


My e-mail address : e.salathe@bluewin.ch

Gee, thanks !

Edouard S.
Posted on: 13 October 2004 by Emil F
Tom

I think your version is updated?

Emil
Posted on: 13 October 2004 by Edouard S.
The administrator told me mains discussions get moved when they get a little particular.

Thanks a lot for the information, Tom and Emil.

As far as the cables for the seperate spur is concerned, either there is no extra tube there which can be used, meaning I will have to go through the existing one, in which case he can only fit in 2mm cable, either there is a tube sitting there, which can go directly to the CU, and which could take a 6mm cable. He will see tomorrow.

As for a seperate seperate CU, and I am not sure he understood what it was about (I am not sure I have either !).

He says we can put a seperate little board for the dedicated spurs, but that that would make no sense since they would still be going through the main board. He says having an altogether different board can only be done by running a new connection off the power lines in the street.

What am I not understanding here ? What exactly is a seperate Consummer Unit ?

By the way, Tom, I am impressed by your record collection compilation. Wow ! Must have taken a lot of work. I've been wanting to do that myself for a long time !

Edouard S.
Posted on: 13 October 2004 by Emil F
I wondered where this thread disappeared? I thought that someone mentioned something about fuses and it was deleted.

Tom

I can send the information from Roy tomorrow, because it's in my office. Did you send yours?

Emil
Posted on: 13 October 2004 by Edouard S.
Emil and Tom,

Yes, I did receive the documents, thank you very much, you are most helpful.

I will look into this music collector thing, as soon as I have finished building my house,moving in, fixing everything up, installing that damn stereo which I am getting obsessive about, searching for contracts, working, raising my three kids and keeping my marriage together through it all !

Or maybe I'll just compromise all that and do it on the side !

Edouard S.
Posted on: 14 October 2004 by Emil F
Edouard

I found that the best way of connection is hard-wiring the naim power cords to the dedicated spurs. This idea is also from Roy.
If you don't feel safety with this, you can use some better (hi-fi) wall sockets like the German Phonossophie and HMS. The standard wall socket is a bottleneck.

Emil
Posted on: 14 October 2004 by Edouard S.
Thanks, I'll look into that.

Edouard S.
Posted on: 15 October 2004 by Edouard S.
quote:
Originally posted by Emil F.:
Edouard

I found that the best way of connection is hard-wiring the naim power cords to the dedicated spurs. This idea is also from Roy.
If you don't feel safety with this, you can use some better (hi-fi) wall sockets like the German Phonossophie and HMS. The standard wall socket is a bottleneck.

Emil


My electrician says he may be able to put a 6mm square cable in there (no more, there just is not enough room), but that another problem is the fact that such a cable can not be wired to a standard wall socket, and that he knows of no such wall socket that could do the job, except for specific 25 amp ones that are not made for the same type of plug. He will look into it however.

Any suggestions ? Of course, I realize the chance that anyone out there know about such an approved and available hi-fi friendly socket in Switzerland are remote, but it is still worth a shot !

Thanks,

Edouard S.
Posted on: 15 October 2004 by Emil F
Edouard

Those HMS wall sockets can take 10mm2. They are available at http://www.hificoncept.de/. You can call them.

You can ask your dealer. Another solution is to cut some cores, so your electrician can easier work with thinner cable ends.

Emil
Posted on: 17 October 2004 by Berlin Fritz
"Oh Such A Poifict Day!"

Woke up, got outa bed dragged a comb across --- etc, brilliant hangover
breakfast of potatoes (totties) fried in holive hoil, and mega inpolitcally
correct amounts of garlic t'boot, after the entree' tomatoes goats cheese and
graham crackers smothered with a rather nice chilli sauce (Thai) that I've
recently discovered form my Korean geezer on the corner (could be a future
thread even ?) I had an excellend cordon bleux washed down with ice cold
medicinally prescribed Czech Bud.
I initially sat dazed & confused glued to the
box enjoying an interview with Christopher Reeve on the Larry King bullshit show
(Sometimes the man does actually pull off some brilliant talks I must admit),
talking of freudian schlips; then Sky TV's Bolton prog (which I saw for the
first time) interviewing our Dennis (Lord Healey) ex British Chancellor of the
cheque-book for those of you out there that only know Swindon & Watford ? and
being a long term fan of the afore-mentioned old labour person I quite enjoyed
myself, followed up by the brilliant film director Ken Loach who's pretty
politically opinionated and more impotently doesn't take shit from nobody
(though still sincerely listens to other views- Just like Fritz ???) The South
African President's brother (Mbeki) followed up with some excellent realities
over African mamngement, and I learnt something for once. Should have been going
out with he Chief later to buy new puter shit and look at some amps and stuff
from some dodgey English set up called; fucj ´k what are they called again ? Oh
yeah, naim, that's it, but I thought to myself with my woice no I'll spend it
all on drink instead.

Ta Ta, then it's back to bed until whenever.



Graham George Von You'vegottabeahustlerifyouwannageton ? And then the band
played on.

Nothing Below: Please check out this site as they're renouned for talking (unlike us in the Cell here) copious amounts of unaldulterated tosh³
http://www.riia.org/ talk abaat a chattin house ? innit. Razz
Posted on: 17 October 2004 by Edouard S.
Confused
Posted on: 17 October 2004 by Edouard S.
Could it be the side effects of the chilli sauce ?

Edouard S.
Posted on: 17 October 2004 by Emil F
... or the Oktoberfest.