Greetings to the American and the UK people

Dear Mick,

The Mule, by Aesop

A mule, frolicsome from lack of work and from too much corn, galloped about in a very extravagant manner, and said to himself: "My father surely was a high-mettled racer, and I am his own child in speed and spirit." On the next day, being driven a long journey, and feeling very wearied, he exclaimed in a disconsolate tone: "I must have made a mistake; my father, after all, could have been only an ass."


Frolic while ye may.

Jay

Does the phrase "war on terror" replace thought or discussion on the issue?

How did we get terrorism? How large is our frame of reference? How far into the past do we look for the origins of extremism?

Arye

As for the State of Israel not engaging in terrorism, I can only respond with....

WHAT ABOUT SABRA AND CHATILLA?



Deane

Tom,

Maybe European countries took actions against groups of terror in Europe, but Europe is not the source of the international terror. The source is here, in Syria, Lebanon, Iran and Saudi Arabia. Europe did everything to ensure a good oil supply from the region and this was the main (if not the only) worry of Europe in the region. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

Deane,
I'm not sure that Sabra and Chatilla was an act of terror taken by Israel against Lebanon people, as an Israeli I'm ashamed of what happened there because it was under Israeli responsibility. But how far back do you want to go? We are talking about what is going now. And now - Syria controls Lebanon, Syria controls terror acts from the south of Lebanon against Israel although Israel left Lebanon. But I guess that this is not bothering you too much. If Israel will take an act against Lebanon, I'm sure that I'll here from you again.

JBoulder
We had many discussions here about the situation between the Palestinians and the Israelis and I'm sure that everyone (but bigmick) is very tired of it. If you wish, you can mail to me and I can argue with you privately.

To all - I understand that I went too far with the words I started this thread and I apologize for this.

Arye

quote:

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Originally posted by Arye_Gur:
Tom,
Maybe European countries took actions against groups of terror in Europe, but Europe is not the source of the international terror. The source is here, in Syria, Lebanon, Iran and Saudi Arabia. Europe did everything to ensure a good oil supply from the region and this was the main (if not the only) worry of Europe in the region. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
Arye

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You are incorrect. The list above should include Istael. Let's tell the whole story shall we?

Cheers

Harry

I know it. I'm planing the next suicide bomb in a very big centre of a very big city, but I can't tell when and what city.

Arye

Understood. Good luck with it.

Cheers

Harry

quote:

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Originally posted by Arye_Gur:
Deane,
I'm not sure that Sabra and Chatilla was an act of terror taken by Israel against Lebanon people, as an Israeli I'm ashamed of what happened there because it was under Israeli responsibility. But how far back do you want to go? We are talking about what is going now. And now - Syria controls Lebanon, Syria controls terror acts from the south of Lebanon against Israel although Israel left Lebanon. But I guess that this is not bothering you too much. If Israel will take an act against Lebanon, I'm sure that I'll here from you again.

Arye

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Arye

Are you serious in your question of how far back I want to go? Can you not see the moral bankruptcy in the question?

"We are talking about now".

Huh??? Time does not heal wounds. The present day situation has been created by the days that have passed behind us.

Israel has already taken an act against Lebenon. You're hearing from me about it now.

I am worried about the whole situation. Syria, Jordan, Israel, Lebanon, Turkey, Iraq ....

This thread is a waste of time, Arye. You don't seem interested in a discussion about Israel's acts of terror and systematic oppression of Palestinian people.

I was on the path to conversion and becoming a gerus. But the acts perpetrated by the government of Eretz Yisrael through these last 50 years have bled away my enthusiasm. The short history of the re-formation of Israel is drenched in too much blood.

Deane

These debates get infected so easily...

Without defending the current goverment of Israel I think we must remember some history. Israel was pretty much left alone in 1948 when their arabic neighbours attacked with the purpose of driving the israelis "out in the sea", something that several arabic/muslim countries still want to do. Israel has constantly existed under the threat of war. In the last years there have been almost daily attacks on Israel, only the big ones get reported.

The situation the last 10 years or so has been truly sad. Imo Israel is much better off when the conservative/religious politcal parties don't run the country. Religious fundamentalism of both sides do nothing good for the situation. Don't forget that Israel is just as divided, if not more than, as the USA when it comes to politics. There is a very big percentage of the israelis that support the peace process and would be more than happy to trade land for peace and start to live a "normal" life. I believe Israel has tried many times to build a stable peace but some palestinian groups with support from Syria, Iran etc just can't accept it, the same is also true for some religious jewish groups.

I believe it's time to put heavy pressure on both sides to start (a new) peace process. How it might be done in real life I don't know though..

quote:

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Originally posted by bjorne:
... Don't forget that Israel is just as divided, if not more than, as the USA when it comes to politics. There is a very big percentage of the israelis that support the peace process and would be more than happy to trade land for peace and start to live a "normal" life. I believe Israel has tried many times to build a stable peace but some palestinian groups with support from Syria, Iran etc just can't accept it, the same is also true for some religious jewish groups.

I believe it's time to put heavy pressure on both sides to start (a new) peace process. How it might be done in real life I don't know though..

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Just as we in Britain are now tarred, internationally, with Blair's brush and all Americans will be treated as Bushites, so individual Israelis are held accountable for the actions of their governments.

Yet Israel has undertaken three very distinct phases of immigration and these phases make up their population today.

The first phase comprised mostly European Jews, such as the hundreds of thousands of refugees from European persecution of the second world war. This first wave of Israelis tended to the type of left wing liberalism that we are familiar with in Western Europe today and, as a result, the first Israeli governments were, I believe, Labour.

The second wave of Israeli immigration comprised Jews from the Arab lands. For example, the laws of Jordanian citizenship are that it is open "to any person who is not Jewish" and who meet certain other criteria. Even those Jews whose families have lived in Jordan for many generations are forbidden citizenship. There have been many such refugees from Israel's Arab neighbours and these immigrants have tended to be more right wing and reactionary than the first phase immigrants.

Finally, the third wave of immigrants have been Jews from the old Soviet Union. To be honest, I'm not sure of their political allegiances but I have been told that they are more concerned with practical solutions than with political dogma.

The above observations are generalisations and perhaps some more knowledgeable forum members can modify or correct them. Nevertheless, I make them here to try to illustrate some of the complexities, which are further compounded by Israel's system of voting and democracy, which, as in today's USA, can result in a disproportionate influence by the religious right.

I agree with bjorne that pressure has to be applied to both the Israelis and Palestinians to start a new peace process. I don't believe that this is possible for either side without outside involvement and, in view of both history and practicality, this means US involvement.

Ultimately, there can be no military solution to the problems of the Middle East. Just as in modern, democratic South Africa, the historical and current 'rights and wrongs' must be dropped for the sake of expediency and peace. The two state solution is the only solution. Negotiations are required and for these to be possible, Palestine needs a leader who is both respected by his own people and willing to 'deal' with an Israel which, to be perfectly frank, isn't going to disappear.

Surely to God, both sides are sick to death of the bloodshed by now. Surely they're ready to stop killing each other's children and compromise for the sake of peace. My hope is that the demise of Arafat will lead to a situation where peace is possible. For the rest of us there will be no end to the 'war on terror' until such a peace has been achieved.

Steve M

quote:

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Originally posted by 7V:

Ultimately, there can be no military solution to the problems of the Middle East. Just as in modern, democratic South Africa, the historical and current 'rights and wrongs' must be dropped for the sake of expediency and peace.

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Steve M

The historical and current 'rights and wrongs' were never dropped in South Africa. They were addressed in a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

Reconciliation would be more likely to produce peace in Israel/Palestine, and therfore more expedient, than just "dropping" the historical context of the contemporary problem for the sake of peace.

Reconciliation requires open-mindedness from all parties involved. Open-mindedness to the possibility that there have been wrongs perpetrated by each party for which some amends must be offered. In the Israel/Palestine situation this would seem to require a change of heart.

Deane

quote:

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The two state solution is the only solution

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True, but how are we going there?

Deane,
I'm inviting you to open a new thread about the situation in Israel and the Palestinians, you can do it on your responsibility and I promise to write a lot in this new thread.
You say

quote:

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Israel has already taken an act against Lebanon. You're hearing from me about it now.

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Right, I don't know exactly to what period of time you are aiming to, but I'll ask you - what happened between Israel and Lebanon before Israel took this act?

The question "how far back do you want to go" is not just a question that I'm asking you, is one of the most crucial questions in order to solve the problem here. The core of the war here is the deporting of 750,000 Palestinians from their homes during the years 1947 - 1948. Demanding on letting these people and their families to return to Israel, means the immediate death of Israel as a state. Therefore it is agreed with leading people in Israel and I think with many leading persons in the Palestinian's side that the solution will be - Israel will admit about the deporting, there will be a kind of compensation to the Palestinians. This agreement must be a base to the solution and a way to a Palestinians state by the side of the Israeli one. Starting to ask who did what and who was the first to do so, will not solve the problems. Talking about terror, it is a well known fact that the Palestinians (Arafat) are taking terror as strategic way to achieve their goals.
It is also a known fact (talking about international terror), that Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia are financing international terror groups. I don’t know of such an activity taken by Israel. Blaming Israel with responsibility to international terror has no ground to lean on.

About the religious people in Israel, seems to me that there are people who think that the problem here is because of them. The religious people in Israel are spread in the none religious parties. The orthodox religious people are in 3 - 4 parties including Shas. Shas
Are not by principal base against leaving land in Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Many of the people in the West Bank are not religious people, so I think that “blaming” the religious people as a group to what goes on in Israel is not correct.

The Second Aliya (1914) and the Third Aliya (1920) were based on many people from Russia and actually, those were the people who really started to build Israel. Nobody can say now what are these peoples’ children and grandchildren political way of thinking.


Arye