Jerry Springer The Opera and religious zealots.

Posted by: Shayman on 07 January 2005

No doubt all those of you in the UK will have heard that the BBC plan to broadcast the musical "Jerry Springer The Opera" this weekend.

Fanstastic. Every review I've read says it is a great piece of theatre.

However the BBC has now received 15000 complaints ahead of the showing from various religious and mediawatch groups. The head of Mediawatch-UK has apparently counted 8000 swear words in the show although to do this he had to multiply each word he heard by 27 to account for the whole cast singing certain songs. What (and for whose benefit) does this prat think he's protecting us from. A free and open socitey?

Anyway, as the previous highest level of complaints was 10 times less than for this it would suggest an organised drumming up of intolerance and pro-censorship.

Just wondered if anyone fancied ringing the BBC to complain about Songs Of Praise saying it doesn't match my beliefs or requirements. If we started a campaign perhaps we could eclipse the 15000 Jerry Springer complaints and show these crackpots the banality of their actions.

Jonathan
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Matthew T
quote:
Originally posted by Earwicker:
quote:
Teaching children about the customs of Christmas, Easter, Pesah (Passover), Ramadan or the Birth of Mahavira is quite legitimate. Teaching them to hate or even look down on those with different beliefs is morally indefensible.


It is morally indefensible to teach impressionable kids to believe things that clearly aren't true. I wouldn't encourage kids to hate things and/or people, but I don't see what's wrong with looking down on the crude beliefs, customs and practices of the past: some of them are quite funny with the benefit of hindsight!! I hope no one hopes their kids will grow up believing that Jesus was really born to a virgin, for example!


Earwicker

You would be amazed at the number of fantastically intelligent people who believed in God. In fact you be very amazed by the number of scientists who became Christian because they were trying to disprove it. I hope that you have spent a good amount of time investigating these issues with an open mind, because it seems that you have not, and it could be pretty important.

Matthew
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Mick P
Earwicker

If everyone adopted the 10 commandments and behaved in a Christian way, the world would be a much better place.

Regards

Mick
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Earwicker
quote:
Many children are taught to believe in Santa Claus. Is that morally indefensible?


Yes. It clearly isn't true, why would you want them to believe it? If you don't set a personal standard of caring about what's true and what isn't, you can end up with big problems. Believing in Santa might not have tragic consequences, but believing that 72 virgins await you in paradise if you blow a load of people up and include yourself among them - that seems to be causing a bit of trouble here and there.

quote:
You would be amazed at the number of fantastically intelligent people who believed in God. In fact you be very amazed by the number of scientists who became Christian because they were trying to disprove it. I hope that you have spent a good amount of time investigating these issues with an open mind, because it seems that you have not, and it could be pretty important.


What you say is true. And yes I have, it fascinates me.

Unfortunately, some scientists resort to religion because they realise they don't understand things about the universe. It's a philosophical point. They depress me, and I'll make my point by demonstration: if Darwin hadn't elucidated the mechanism for the origin of species, one could say, ah well, we don't know how it happened... therefore God must have made it happen!

Not good logic. I would say, we may not yet have the explanation, but I bet life on earth did not come about because some invisible being out there somewhere got bored and decided to create life. It's not really a credible explanation, even if you don't yet have the real one.

Since we DO have a satisfactory explanation for the origin of life, I do wish people wouldn't keep teaching kids that creationist crap. It simply isn't true and it's clear that it isn't true.
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Rasher
Steve M - Are you claiming that the war between the Catholic's & Protestant's in Northern Ireland has nothing to do with religion? You cannot seriously believe that this is removed from the fallout from religion (although I agree it isn't teaching from the bible, but from those who claim to uphold it).
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Rasher
quote:
Originally posted by Mick Parry:
If everyone adopted the 10 commandments and behaved in a Christian way, the world would be a much better place.


Everyone being who? All Christians, or everyone on the planet irrespective of religion? I personally think that most religions have a basis in good; it's only the followers who fuck it up every time. All religions should throw away their "Good books" and get on with living a spritually good life instead of trying to find the answer in some stupid book. There is no right and wrong, but there is a good and bad.
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by 7V
quote:
Originally posted by Rasher:
Steve M - Are you claiming that the war between the Catholic's & Protestant's in Northern Ireland has _nothing _ to do with religion? You cannot seriously believe that this is removed from the fallout from religion (although I agree it isn't teaching from the bible, but from those who claim to uphold it).

I think you've answered your own question.

This is tribalism, not religion.
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Stephen Bennett
quote:
Originally posted by 7V:
[This is tribalism, not religion.


No, it's religion. It may not have anything to do with god, but then most religions don't. They are man-made constructs designed to make people behave in certain ways and give poor people something to look forward to when they are dead so they don't get annoyed with the rich people when they are alive.

I can (just) understand why people may believe in god; I have no idea why people follow religions.

Stephen
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Stephen Bennett
quote:
Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Earwicker

If everyone adopted the 10 commandments and behaved in a Christian way, the world would be a much better place.

Regards

Mick


Didn't you support the Iraq war? 'Thou shall not kill'? 'Thou shalt not steal' (Oil),'Thou shalt not covet any thing that is thy neighbour's.' (Oil)

Stephen
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Mick P
Stephen

If Saddam had obeyed the 10 commandments there would have been no need for a war in the first place.

Regards

Mick
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Rasher
"Thou shalt not kill" - Christian answer: We were just defending ourselves from being wiped out by nuclear weapons. It was self defense.
"Thou shalt not steal" - Christian answer: It wasn't stealing, we were just compensating for the cost of stopping them destroying us.
"Thou shalt not covet anything that is thy neighbours" - Christian answer: They arn't our neighbours. France are our neighbours.

Easy isn't it!
Maybe there should have been an 11th commandment: Thou shalt not fuck about with the commandments to make them mean whatever you want them to mean. Big Grin
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Stephen Bennett
quote:
Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Stephen

If Saddam had obeyed the 10 commandments there would have been no need for a war in the first place.

Regards

Mick


'Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. '

OK, not a commandment but.....

Stephen
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Rasher
Isn't that from Pulp Fiction?
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Rasher
Anyway, wasn't Jesus a Jew? What would his religion have said then? Did anyone ask him whether he wanted to be adopted into a new religion called Christianity?
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Mick P
Stephen

err yeah but no but yeah

Look here, lets get real, there are times when a mans gotta do whata mans gotta do, and we did it.

We stuffed him good.

Regards

Mick
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by JonR
quote:
Originally posted by Rasher:
Anyway, wasn't Jesus a Jew? What would his religion have said then? Did anyone ask him whether he wanted to be adopted into a new religion called Christianity?


Yeah Jesus was a Jew alright, but 'e went to the wrong type of Schul so they strung i'm up (my interpretation Big Grin ).

JR

PS: Haven't got a f*****g clue what Mick's talkin' about - no change there then Roll Eyes
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Stephen Bennett
quote:
Originally posted by Mick Parry:
We stuffed him good.

Regards

Mick


The 11th 'Parry' Commandment?

Winker

Stephen
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Matthew T
quote:
Originally posted by Rasher:
Steve M - Are you claiming that the war between the Catholic's & Protestant's in Northern Ireland has _nothing _ to do with religion? You cannot seriously believe that this is removed from the fallout from religion (although I agree it isn't teaching from the bible, but from those who claim to uphold it).


This is like saying that atheism can be denouced because of Hitler, Stalin, the PRC. Anyone feel like defending those causes?

Critise and analysis your own beliefs and their consequences before you do so to others, though then again as an atheist there isn't really much point, to anything, at all...

Matthew
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Rockingdoc
I propose a Naim forum episode of the Jerry Springer Show, when the usual suspects from here could be wheeled out to berate each other.
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Martin Clark
quote:
though then again as an atheist there isn't really much point, to anything, at all...
That's a little glib - and I couldn't disagree more. Care to expand...?
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Matthew T
quote:
Since we DO have a satisfactory explanation for the origin of life, I do wish people wouldn't keep teaching kids that creationist crap. It simply isn't true and it's clear that it isn't true.


No, we have a feasible, though far from viable explanation for evolution of life, and a highly unbelievable and an extremely improbable explanation for the source of life, 1 in how many million that life would have come into being all by itself - ever, plus a wonderful explanation for the origin of the universe, well it just came into being from, ermmm, nothing, with a bang. Of course man's attempt to try and understand the universe from taking observations from 10^17th of the supposed universe for about 10,000,000 of it's supposed existence is rather amusing as well.

But if that is what you choose to place your trust in then great. I still haven't figured out how anything can be right or wrong in an atheistic world but I guess that is just a legacy of our religious delusions.

Matthew
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Sir Crispin Cupcake
quote:
Look here, lets get real, there are times when a mans gotta do whata mans gotta do, and we did it.

We stuffed him good.


Yep him and 100,000 others!
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Stephen Bennett
quote:
But if that is what you choose to place your trust in then great. I still haven't figured out how anything can be right or wrong in an atheistic world but I guess that is just a legacy of our religious delusions.

Matthew


And your answer is that 'god did it?' is it? End of story.

Confused

There may be many mechanisms that define the beginning of Space/Time and Life on Earth. But surely the idea that some intelligence was involved is the least likely explanation?

You may be right. But religious belief stops you looking. Religions themselves persecute those who do continue to look for a rational and empirical universe.

Atheism doesn’t preclude god; it just thinks it unlikely and unnecessary. One of the problems humans have in grasping the beginnings of life is that we think that our intelligence and ability to theorise is 'god given'. But it's more likely to be a little artifact of evolution; something that helped our species survive.

And you are right; nothing is fundementally right and wrong - it's all out there to be tested. You may not like that; but your feelings are also a by product of self-awareness. You may find this hard to take and take comfort in religion. Others take comfort in sex and music. It's how we survive as individuals but it means bugger all on the wider scale of things.

Stephen
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by John Sheridan
quote:

highly unbelievable and an extremely improbable explanation for the source of life, 1 in how many million that life would have come into being all by itself - ever

it doesn't really matter what the odds are, had they not been met you wouldn't be here to worry about it.
There's only a one in several million chance of winning the lottery but people still manage to do so.

quote:

plus a wonderful explanation for the origin of the universe, well it just came into being from, ermmm, nothing, with a bang.

well, if you want to argue along those lines, where did God come from? Before replying, please consider that "he didn't, he just is" is no more plausible than the above.
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Stephen Bennett
quote:
Originally posted by John Sheridan:
well, if you want to argue along those lines, where did God come from? Before replying, please consider that "he didn't, he just is" is no more plausible than the above.


John, a belief in god precludes any need for plausibility. It just requires one to say that god just 'is'. Which is why religion will always hold back empirical thought. Luckily, we live in a time where I'm not likely to be killed for saying that; but it may not last....

Which perhaps brings us back to the Jerry Springer/Bhezati death threats.

Stephen

[This message was edited by Stephen Bennett on Mon 10 January 2005 at 17:01.]
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Sir Crispin Cupcake
Originally posted by Matthew T

quote:
highly unbelievable and an extremely improbable explanation for the source of life, 1 in how many million that life would have come into being all by itself - ever


Ok so the chances of life happening spontaneously are very small, but then the earth is a big place and it's been around for a long time. Sometimes when you multiply a very small number by a couple of very big ones you end up with a plausible result!