Jerry Springer The Opera and religious zealots.

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Originally posted by Rasher:
"Thou shalt not kill" - Christian answer: We were just defending ourselves from being wiped out by nuclear weapons. It was self defense.
"Thou shalt not steal" - Christian answer: It wasn't stealing, we were just compensating for the cost of stopping them destroying us.
"Thou shalt not covet anything that is thy neighbours" - Christian answer: They arn't our neighbours. France are our neighbours.

Easy isn't it!
Maybe there should have been an 11th commandment: Thou shalt not fuck about with the commandments to make them mean whatever you want them to mean.

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Rasher,

First you're putting words into the mouths of the Christians, then you're accusing them of fucking about with the commandments to make them mean what they want.

Were you educated at the 'Mohammad Said Sahhaf School of Debate'?

Steve M

That is very small, anywhere, anytime in all the billions of years of the universes existence. And, yes if you start with the remit that there is no God it is possible to prove that there is no God, and vice-a-versa.

However, if I came to the conclusion that I could not believe in God, I would come to the rational conclusions that I can do what I want, and that ultimately it has no consequence, and nobody or nothing has any purpose meaning or value. There seems to be a massive effort in academic circles to justify the concept of atheism and morality, yet it makes no rational sense, morality ultimately becomes irrelevant (or rather does not exist) without any form of objectivity and to say this is wrong or right, this person should not be allowed to do this, this person should not be able to kill this other person etc etc is irrational and naive. And so far I have never met anybody who is prepared to embrace atheism, but rather contrives fanciful concepts of a moral code which they believe they have a right to enforce on others though there is no objective rational for it (that they believe it is right is not objective, even if lots of their friends do as well).

I find more solutions to the big questions within religion then outside of it, so that is my choice, you may choose differently but you will have to forgive (haha) me for finding your life and belief irreconcilable.

Matthew

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I find more solutions to the big questions within religion then outside of it, so that is my choice, you may choose differently but you will have to forgive (haha) me for finding your life and belief irreconcilable.

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the bible tells me amongst other things, that I should slaughter my enemies - including their children, eat my children, practice human sacrifice, keep slaves, and rape women.
Now, how does any of that help us?

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Originally posted by Matthew T:
I find more solutions to the big questions within religion then outside of it, so that is my choice, you may choose differently but you will have to forgive (haha) me for finding your life and belief irreconcilable.

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The issue to me is that you (and everyone else) should have that choice and be able to make it freely. Having made it, none of us should be persecuted for the choice we made.

The quality of debate seems disappointing on this thread, particularly as it has gone on in the wider society for many, many years, and at a higher level then we read here. This discussion would hardly have turned Bertram Russell into a consumer of Salisbury's electronics, would it?

In fact, after reading this thread from the beginning, when I got to the bit where Stephen Bennett said ...

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There may be many mechanisms that define the beginning of Space/Time and Life on Earth. But surely the idea that some intelligence was involved is the least likely explanation?

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...I found myself thinking that there's got to be a lot more chance of finding some intelligence 'out there' than 'in here'.

Steve M

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However, if I came to the conclusion that I could not believe in God, I would come to the rational conclusions that I can do what I want, and that ultimately it has no consequence, and nobody or nothing has any purpose meaning or value.

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Hmmm....

I came to the conclusion that there is no God at age 11-12. Oddly, I didn't feel that this gave me carte blanche to do whatever I feel. In fact, in the intervening thirty years, my body count has remained depressingly low (zero in fact) and while I am posessed of a certain talent for dissipation, I haven't harmed anyone by getting pissed every now and then.

If you think that you need to mainatin a belief in a non-existent supernatural being just to keep you on the straight and narrow...the mind boggles.


Cheers,

Tim

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Originally posted by John Sheridan:
the bible tells me amongst other things, that I should slaughter my enemies - including their children, eat my children, practice human sacrifice, keep slaves, and rape women.

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The bible doesn't tell you that you should do any such things.

Steve M

PS: "eat my children" - where does that one come from?

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Originally posted by Tim Danaher:
I came to the conclusion that there is no God at age 11-12.

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That is your belief and your right.

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If you think that you need to maintain a belief in a non-existent supernatural being just to keep you on the straight and narrow...the mind boggles.

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Was it also at the age of 11-12 that you came to the conclusion that you could ridicule those who didn't share your belief ("a non-existant supernatural being") and doesn't that strike you as just a shade arrogant?

I was 7 years old when in a moment of Zen Satori I came to a clear understanding that:

a) The universe is permeated by God
b) God is beyond human understanding.

So what?

Steve M

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The bible doesn't tell _you_ that _you_ should do any such things.

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well if you want to be pedantic, no, it doesn't mention me by name.

Try 2 Kings 6:28,29 for one example of cannibalism.

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And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow.

So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.

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No, we have a feasible, though far from viable explanation for evolution of life, and a highly unbelievable and an extremely improbable explanation for the source of life, 1 in how many million that life would have come into being all by itself - ever, plus a wonderful explanation for the origin of the universe, well it just came into being from, ermmm, nothing, with a bang. Of course man's attempt to try and understand the universe from taking observations from 10^17th of the supposed universe for about 10,000,000 of it's supposed existence is rather amusing as well.

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It is entirely viable. In fact, the spontaneous formation of amino acids (building blocks of life if you're not a scientist) was demonstrated by Stanley Miller in the '50s. Operin and Fox have shown the spontaneous formation of crude cells (coacervates). Some of the reactions are a bit improbable if you consider that you need the reactants to be togather in the right concentrations in the same place, but there was plenty of time to think about it, and if you consider the number of planets in the universe roughly equivalent to Earth, it's not a great surprise that they occurred on one of them! In fact, the probability is such that it makes the strongest case for hypothesising that we are not alone in the universe.

As for the origin of species by differential survival, that theory now is about as much in doubt as the theory that the Earth orbits the sun. It is simply true. What is says in the Bible (and other creationist texts) is simply wrong. Life was not created by some invisible man out there somewhere. Period. There might BE some invisble man out there doing... whatever it is he's been doing all this time, but he certainly didn't create life, and it's looking like he didn't create the universe either.

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I was 7 years old when in a moment of Zen Satori I came to a clear understanding that:

a) The universe is permeated by God
b) God is beyond human understanding.

So what?

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Well you were either a child genius or you leapt to a conclusion you should've revised later!

Seriously though, if you're so lax with your concept of truth, you might just as well believe the Earth's flat, the moon is made of green cheese, and that Mars is populated by little green men! Welcome to fantasy land!

The universe is Godless - we have to live with it and move on accordingly. It seems to me we'd be beter off without it anyway, the amount of bloody trouble it causes.

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Originally posted by John Sheridan:
[QUOTE]Try 2 Kings 6:28,29 for one example of cannibalism.

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The laws regarding diet are made quite clear in Leviticus and although these are largely ignored by Christians these days, they are observed to the letter by Orthodox Jews and, to a lesser extent, by Muslims.

The eating of humans is expressly forbidden on the grounds that:

a) Humans don't chew the cud

b) Humans don't have cloven hooves.

Steve M

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although these are largely ignored by Christians these days

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isn't it nice how Christians can randomly pick and choose which bits of the Bible are to be believed.

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The laws regarding diet are made quite clear in Leviticus

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Also from Leviticus:-

Being a Homosexual (Leviticus 18:22)

Eat Shellfish (inclusive of prawns, crabs, lobster etc) (Leviticus 11:10)

Wearing glasses or afflicted with pimples, acne or excema etc. (Leviticus 21:20)

Touching the Skin of a Dead Pig (Leviticus 11:6-8)

Wearing Garments made of two different fibers (Leviticus 19:19)

Planting Two Crops in the same field (Leviticus 19:19)

The clasic "Dr Laura Letter" always makes me smile

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Originally posted by Stuart M:
The classic "Dr Laura Letter" always makes me smile

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Brilliant.

Steve M

I thought this link, from the Anti-Defamation League's website, makes for interesting reading.

An admittedly extreme example, but these guys pose as big a threat to freedom and decency as the extreme right wing of Islam...

An example of Christian tolerance and forgiveness from Kansas

Kevin

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Originally posted by Kevin-W:
An admittedly extreme example, but these guys pose as big a threat to freedom and decency as the extreme right wing of Islam...

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There are certainly some dangerous crazies out there.

However, I don't think that they're "as big a threat to freedom and decency as the extreme right wing of Islam".

They represent a tiny, extreme minority - even in middle America. So much so that their web site is famous and often quoted in various blogs for its extreme craziness. How did you hear of it?

They come from a country where others are free to counter them, even to ridicule them. They haven't yet (as far as I know) resorted to terrorism or acts of mass murder.

The US have always had their nasty extremists, look at the KKK. However, they've always been kept in their place.

As a Jew and a Westerner, I suppose that my family and I are under threat from both 'The Westboro Baptist Church' and the Islamic fascists. I know which worry me more.

Steve M

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Originally posted by 7V:



As a Jew and a Westerner, I suppose that my family and I are under threat from both 'The Westboro Baptist Church' and the Islamic fascists. I know which worry me more.

Steve M

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Steve

I can see what you're saying, but they [the fundamentalist Christian right] have already resorted to mass murder... remember Oklahoma?

If you're worried about yourself and your family (as a Jew and a westerner) I think you should worry about everyone from the religious right/crazed wing: Islamist, Christian, Sikh, Jewish, Hindu, etc.

Kevin

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Originally posted by Earwicker:
The universe is Godless - we have to live with it and move on accordingly. It seems to me we'd be beter off without it anyway, the amount of bloody trouble it causes.

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And please explain to me why we would better off without religion, using historical precedents for successful purely atheistic societies.

Matthew

[QUOTE] And please explain to me why we would better off without religion, using historical precedents for successful purely atheistic societies./QUOTE]

You don't need to look to history. Just compare secular Western civilisation today with what goes on in Godland out East!

Anyway, the fact remains that, at least from a factual point of view, God doesn't exist, so we need to find ways to form a viable secular society even if religious ones really were better! And I don't think they are.

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Originally posted by Kevin-W:
If you're worried about yourself and your family (as a Jew and a westerner) I think you should worry about everyone from the religious right/crazed wing: Islamist, Christian, Sikh, Jewish, Hindu, etc.

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Gee thanks Kevin,

Now I'll really sleep well at nights.

Steve M

PS: For some reason this puts me in mind of something I read over the Christmas holiday, comparing Christmas with the Jewish festival, Chanukah:

"Christmas is a major holiday. Chanukah is a minor holiday with the same theme as most Jewish holidays. They tried to kill us, we survived, let's eat."

Steve M - I think you have been given a hard time here and I do actually agree with a lot that you say. I only mean that the concept of God & religions promoting their idea of God over the ideas of others has led to an unstable situation. Maybe mankind should not be trusted with religion and should just be left with the concept of God only, not to be promoted; but to serve as a pesonal spiritual focus only.
I do think that your comment regarding the quality of debate here is ignoring the fact that this is a Jerry Springer thread, and the level of sense here is going to reflect that and be pretty piss poor ( I include myself in that of course )
Anyway...You say you are worried by The Westboro Baptist Church and the Islamic fascists...so let's bring them on...(Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry....).

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Originally posted by Earwicker:
Anyway, the fact remains that, at least from a factual point of view, God doesn't exist, so we need to find ways to form a viable secular society even if religious ones really were better! And I don't think they are.

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You seem to have difficulties with people believing in God. Do you?

Steve M

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Originally posted by Matthew T:
For those of you who seem conviced of the benefits of a society without religion, I suggest you think about those few states that have ever existed that have made a clear rejection of religion, I can think of three in modern times.
Matthew

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Matthew

These states failed and caused such misery not because they were atheistic or irreligious but because they were utopian. I have said elsewhere on this forum that utopianism is one of the most anti-human constructs that human beings have come up with to torture themselves.

What links the regimes/experiments of Stalin, Hitler, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Mussolini, Jim Jones (of Jonestown Guyana infamy), Osama Bin Laden, Mullah Omar and his Taliban, David Koresh of Waco infamy, Ayatollah Khomeni, Savonarola, those US survivalists and militias, the Terror after the French Revolution, etc etc?

They are/were all utopians. Nothing to do with their lack of religion.

You seem to be making the mistake that all people of faith make, which is to assume that you [people of faith] have a monopoly on virtue, and that human beings are incapable of behaving with decency without help from a divine entity. This is far too pessimistic - and anti-human - for me to stomach. Feel free to believe what you want, but please refrain from judging those of us who don't share your particular belief...

Kevin

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Originally posted by Matthew T:

And please explain to me why we would better off without religion, using historical precedents for successful purely atheistic societies.

Matthew

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As societies become less religiously indoctrinated and more secular they become more just and fair. You only need to look at Europe over the past 50 years to see this happen. Britain is a far more equitable society now than in, say, the 1950s.

I'm interested Matthew, do you think that people who do not believe in god are basically amoral?

Stephen

[This message was edited by Stephen Bennett on Tue 11 January 2005 at 10:11.]

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Originally posted by Rasher:
Anyway...You say you are worried by The Westboro Baptist Church and the Islamic fascists...so let's bring them on...(Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry....)

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That's the funniest image I've had in a while. Brilliant. I would SO love to see that.

Thanks for raising the level of the debate.

Steve M

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Originally posted by 7V:
You seem to have difficulties with people believing in God. Do you?

Steve M

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I can't speak for EarWicker but I have no problem with people believing in god, magic, pixies, hobbits or elves - all of which I consider about as equally likely to exist (or not).

What I do have a problem with is decisions being made that affect my life and others that are based on any or all of the above.

Luckily, I live in a basically secular society. Others aren't so lucky.

Stephen