Naim 'sound'?

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

My perception is that the drums are more noticable because Naim do a better job of them than some other makes. There is no "pushing up in the mix" going on - see the frequency response curves. However, the transistors in the Naim amps are the fastest ones going and what you are probably hearing is the leading edge being accurately portrayed..... possibly something you interpret as harshness.

Next time you go to a gig, notice how loud the drums are.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
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Before people start pelting me with SuperCaps, I can hear traces of this Naim ‘sound’ on systems from a new Nait 5 (compared to a Sugden A21a A Class amp), to a £6-7K monster demo system. Does anyone else hear this? Is it a Naim ‘sound’? Is it unavoidable to get dynamics, punch, presence & excitement at the expense of acoustic accuracy?

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This seems to be a recurring theme, I am absolutely convinced it has nothing at all to do with the Naim stuff, but is all to do with setup. I hate to say it, but some of the worst sounds from Naim I have heard have been at their own dealers.

Whenever I have heard a hard or harsh Naim system (and I have heard many) there has been other factors that seem wrong - dodgy source components, over live room acoustics, crap mains blocks, or the system simply being played too loud for either the amp or speakers to take etc…

With your comparison to the Sugden amp vs the Naim, my guess is the Sugden may be a little kinder to a less than perfect source, if you were to compare them with a CDS2 or good record deck you would probably find the Naim rose to the challenge more. The Sugden is a good little amp though.

I have owned a Naim amp for 13 years now, and I have never suffered even slightly with hardness or harshness. For over ten of those years I have partnered my Naim amps with Linn Kan IIs, not the most warm or forgiving speakers available by a long shot. I work on the assumption that if it sounds harsh I have done something wrong, so I find it and fix it!

Tony.

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A grand piano close up is absolutely deafening – yet never remotely harsh.

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I'll add another point here. I think you are correct about the harshness, but only with regards to Naim's lower-end gear. My wife tends to be very sensitive to this, and she was always asking me to turn it down because it was hurting her ears. I perceived this attribute of the presentation as "intensity" rather than of "harshness". (On another thread someone tried to suggest that a 3.5 was better than a CDX, and I believe this was the reason why.)

My system started with a 3.5/Flat/102/NAPSC/140. Now that I'm at CDX/82/2*Hi/250, she rarely asks me to turn it down.

Naim certainly holds Pace, Rhythm and Timing (PRaT) as sacrosanct. In their lower end gear, other aspects sometimes suffer (since compromises must be made somewhere). As you move up the ladder, the harshness/intensity fades, to be replaced by a wonderful tonal smoothness (without any loss of PRaT).

Of course the epitome of this is the CDS2/52/500 setup, which sounds amazing smooth, yet dynamically involving. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

In my system (CD3/72/hicap/140), a Great Offender in the harshness sweepstakes was ground loops. I had the ground screw on my LP12 hooked up as well as a Naim CD player. Unhooking the LP12's ground lug from the back of the 72 cleaned things up a lot and fundamentally improved PRaT.

Supports also make a large difference.

- GregB

First off, I would say that it is nice to see a bit of healthy criticism on the Forum. The forum does at times get a bit too uncritical in its praise of Naim.

I had a similar problem as yourself, which was improved but not resolved as I went up to the top end of the Naim range. Things were only resolved for me when I put four sets of Nordost Pulsar Points under CD and amps (two layers under the CD transport). This has removed all trace of fierceness/harshness unless I am playing very loud. It was the best £150 I have ever spent! I think other posters have commented on the improvements that good supports can provide for Naim. If you listen at high volumes it is all the more likely that investment in good supports will help you with your problem.

Nic P

from what you say, can i assume that you actually auditioned quite a number of naim systems all the way to the top flight systems?? was this always at dealers?? reason i ask is that i have heard the best sound from naim systems in friends homes (mind you i have also heard some very bad ones too ... again badly set up, or not set up at all).

just to be specific, what i describe as harsh sound is that which you get when the speakers are NOT rigid enough, or the ARO arm pillar is TOO tight.

interesting comment though....

enjoy...

ken

However, IMHO, and all my friends agree, for vocals and other light music, tube gear still sounds best ... so now on the lookout for tube gear to use when I don't want to be rocked by the Naims ...

I suspect that naim has an unreality - a sort of hyper-reality - which many people like, and (alas) like to think of as 'real', even if it's not. Seems that most Hi-Fi fondlers are reluctant to express a preference for something which is apparently inaccurate - thus the usual mud 'n' cable slinging which does on everywhere in Hi-Fi world.

Lots of naimophiles blather on about drums and how loud they are in the flesh. And indeed, they are loud. But not flavoured with naim harshness. Another example is standing a foot or two away from a live tenor sax at full chat - bloody loud, but not harsh. Can you honestly say the same thing about the naim replication version?

Anyway, if you're after accuracy why not buy ATC (or similar) kit? (In fact, my preferred system thus far was a mix of naim-ATC, which doubtless gives the worst of both worlds ... but I know what I like and like what I know, oh yes.)

(BTW, Believe it or not, 90% of my kit is naim in case you're wondering ...)
S.

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one is a way of pushing drums, percussion & other dynamic peaks up in the mix to exciting but maybe unrealistic levels; and second is a slight but persistent hardness or harshness on acoustic instruments especially piano.

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I agree with this description. This is how I have always heard Naim amps, both in dealers' systems, in home demos, and in friends' systems.

In my experience, Naim amps tend to emphasise some elements - percussive elements in particular - while losing some of the subtleties and nuances - particularly tonal nuances - of music. I have been to literally hundreds of orchestral, instrumental, vocal and operatic performances, and Naim amps do not in my view remotely come close to the sound of live (unamplified) music, and certainly no more so than many other brands of hi fi.

Ross

Whatever, Naim rocks, superb PRAT, and most of all is fun. In the words of my friends, this is not an "old man's" system ! "Old man" not to be taken literally (one of my friends is in his 50's and just loves heavy metal and rock) ... Otherwise, just go tube and forget Naim ...

I haven't been to "hundreds" of orchestral concerts and operas, but enough to know precisely what you're talking about. My Naim system certainly has a great deal of trouble getting close to the tonal beauty of the Berlin Philharmonic live, but it does it better than most and certainly no worse than any others I've heard. Unless I and most of us here have been completely duped, I *suspect* your Exposure gear infuses some pretty colourations which make everything sound nice, just like an orchestra sounds nice. That's fine if you like it, but it shouldn't be passed off as more realistic. You also think the LP12 is the most tonally accurate source available, which is something I have never heard from anyone apart from a fanatical Linn dealer here in town. The deck is excellent and renowned for it's boogie, but even die-hards will admit it takes a few liberties with the bass. Again, I'll take it all back (and switch) if it turns out Exposure is so much better than Naim that it's all a different story. Any Exposure users close to me willing to show it off?

Finally, I am wondering if you have heard a complete Naim system in someone's home? If I had based my opinions of Naim on dealerships (especially the former local one), I would probably hold twice the negative view you are expressing.

Vuk.

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I *suspect* your Exposure gear infuses some pretty colourations which make everything sound nice, just like an orchestra sounds nice. That's fine if you like it, but it shouldn't be passed off as more realistic.

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I didn't say Exposure was more realistic. It's not. I just like it better. I also wish you'd acquire some facts before using terms like "pretty colourations" about equipment you've never heard.

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You also think the LP12 is the most tonally accurate source available,

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I did??? When??? I have only said that it I like the LP12, which I do, immensely, particularly when compared to the other turntables I've heard.

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Finally, I am wondering if you have heard a complete Naim system in someone's home?

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I have not heard a complete Naim system, including speakers, set up carefully in someone's home. I have heard Naim amps in peoples' homes, and I have heard them in my home.

Ross

The "pushing up" of the percussion your hearing probably has allot to do with Naim's trade mark "flat earth" sound. That is the bass signal is delivered before the treble signal, which happens to be contrary to 90% of the systems available on the market today. The tendency is to sacrifice a little soundstaging and imagery for rhythm and beat.

I agree with you on the assessment and I also think Ross makes a good point when he states: "losing some of the subtleties and nuances - particularly tonal nuances - of music" I'm going to go out on a limb here and hopefully without inciting a riot. The flat earth sound loses some of the beauty and emotion that other systems conjure with tonal nuances. I notice it and my wife really notices it but what you get in return is excellent timing that helps the music somehow make more sense as well as a foot tapping good time.

In the end it's a tradeoff and you have to choose. As has already been stated, going up the Naim ladder doesn't help. As a matter of fact I just traded a CDX for a new CD5 which enhanced the subtle tonal nuances that I felt were missing. But that's another story.

Todd

Excellent news - I'm so glad others out there can agree on this.

The CDX it seems is very 'room critical'

I recently invested in a BASE audiophile resonance controlled cabinet and demoed a CDX/XPS for a few days with my 72/hi/180/Credos hoping that my earlier impressions of the CDX could have been wrong due to my old stand (an appollo singing ringing tree). Turned out not to be the case though - the CDX still sounded dull and did not get the feet tapping as I hoped it would.

I have had my CD5 since Wednesday this week and I spent most of yesterday dancing - yes dancing to what I was hearing - BTW I cannot remember EVER having done this before. Even my dog seemed to be enjoying the experience! - she usually retires to another part of the house.

Didn't someone once say " If it sounds good -then it is good "

Regards P.

Hi Frank

My dealer was very helpful and we gradually reduced the problem. First change was a NAPSC which made a big improvement. Then came a Quadraspire table, which took out some harshness and metallic sound. Then a HICAP added some body and warmth. A Musicworks 6-way power block removed more of the harshness and the latest Naim interconnects also helped. All these upgrades also released a lot more of the music.

I'm still not completely satisfied, but the system is now much better than the one I started with.

The component I blame the most (rightly or wrongly) is the 180 power amp. I think it is a little on the bright side and particularly unforgiving of harsh input. I heard a CDX/82/Supercap/NAPSC/180 at my dealer. This didn't sound harsh at all, so I think the 180 is OK with the right input. I believe the 90, 140 and 250 power amps may be more forgiving. Do others share this view?

If I were starting again, I would of course have the benefit of some later Naim equipment such as the CD5 or CDX. I would be very tempted to start with an 82 pre-amp and perhaps a 90 or 140 power amp. This would mean a relatively small investment in the power amp before going for a 250 or 135s. The 82 also opens an upgrade path to a SUPERCAP, which doesn't make so much sense with a 102.

Others may disagree (feel free to, I know you will!), but I don't believe any amount of tinkering with the set up of the original system would have fixed the problem.

if you have anything more than one item plugged into your preamp then try unplugging the DIN leads for everything except the CD player and have another listen.

Report back your experiences.

cheers, Martin

I have been following this thread with some interest now and I have a few comments.

Much of the disscussion here has dealt with
1) What type of sound should be considered as correct?

and

2) Does Naim gear achive an good level of correctness or does it "colour" the sound to make it more involving but unrealistic?

The easiest answer (in theory) to 1) is of course to say that it should sound as in real life, but in practice this is a difficult way to judge hifi. To compare with a live concert is of course possible but unfortunately hifi of today (and the recording technique) seems to be quite far from achiving this level of realism. Different deviations from the live sound are given names such as "harshness", "smoothness", "colouration", "flatness" and so forth... and if you don't watch out you catch yourself by listening more to "what the sound sounds like" than to the music being played.

You have probably heard this argument before but I think there really is a point to it. The best way to judge a hifi system is in my opinion to do as the Linn people preach. Forget about all the audiophile terminology. You were not present in the recording studio so with the approach above it's difficult to judge whether a system plays the music correct or not. If you concentrate on the music instead it's often much easier. If you can easily follow the music (tap your foot, hum along, whatever..) and hear what is being played, than the system is probably "correct" and it certanly does what it is supposed to do. If it's difficult to follow the music (the drums and the bass line muddle together or you feel distracted by something), then there is probably something that your system does wrong.

I don't want to kill this discussion, but I felt that there was an important point here that people seemed to have forgotten.

Cheers!

As a newcomer to Naim equipment, some of the comments above ring true to my own experience.

I upgraded to Naim for one and one reason only - I wanted to forget about the HiFi and enjoy music.

Some observations ;

I now listen at lower volumes than before but feel to get more out of the music. Historically I believe that I was listening for 'effects' and drama not to music. Now I listen to many different types of music. (CD collection has nearly doubled in last 6 months)

I upgraded last month by adding an xps and Supercap to the cdx, 82, 180 and SBL's. Some pieces of music have gone 'flat' but there is just so much more to hear. I had been confusing involvement with lack of control.

As some contributers have said, nothing can be like a live piece of music, but for me Naim comes the closest.

I agree with the let's not forget the music plea.

I have a similar experience of harshness. I also notice an artificiality and hardness with subtle instruments, particularly piano and vocals. I simply put it down to my set up and the unforgiving nature of the CDX with poor recordings. However, could it be the 180, the lack of hicap on the 82 etc etc.? Any other suggestions welcome?
Or is it simply the signature of Naim equipment???
I hope not!!
Simon

My set up is CDX/82/180/Dynaudio contour 1.1/quadraspire rack

Your system and experiences are very similar to mine with naim. Reading the reviews which have appeared recently in Hi-fi world and Hi-fi Choice one criticism crops up over and over and again and harshness is it. Nobody ever disputes the rhythmic qualities of the brand but naim does have a tendency to be a bit shrill compared to other brands. If you're drunk this makes the music more involving, if you're tired after a day at work I am reminded of Mike Hanson's wife's comment about 'raping her ears'

I have a John Wetton live rock album which opens with some acoustic guitar and then a storming bass guitar cuts in. On my friend's Yamaha Cd/amp and Bose speakers that bass guitar has superb power (and his system costs around £1500) It dammned near pins you against the wall. On my £8-9 000 naim system the bass guitar is superbly defined but has nothing like the scale of the cheaper system.

Hi-capping the 102 has improved matters to a great degree and experiments with a subwoofer produced mixed results (but improved the John Wetton track - a lot!) You should definately hicap your 82 before doing anything else.

I've given some thought to building a "my DBL" solution for fun or hunting down some Isobariks because I'm becoming more and more convinced that big speakers hold the key to big sound. My problem has been that the tweeter seems louder than the woofer and it's this imbalance between the amount of high and low frequency information which causes complaints of shrillness.

After Hicap I am 80% happy with my system on 70% of the music I play which is a huge improvement. Previously I was getting to the stage of buying a lot of well recorded stuff because anything that wasn't took your fillings out.

Jonathan

1. A Naim system shouldn't sound harsh. This is not in its nature, it's something wrong. Friends visiting me (even tubies) always remark on the natural (even warm-glowing on the right occasions) tone of saxes, trumpets and other "harsh" sounding instruments. The gloved iron-fist metaphore should fit here.

2. The best test there is, is a slow and dynamic track. It should realy sound relaxed, I sometime think I can hear the drummer had some illegal mellowing stuff before playing.

4. Most Naim systems should sound relaxed when needed. If it's irritating, then there something wrong. Setup is not complicated, but I realise it can be frustrating. I was in such a state, and repeating others, two things changed this completely :

a. Sort your electricity. No redundant main fuses on the way, a decent distribution block, and upgrade the system's fuse to a higher rating (Mine's a Siemens 20 amp grade "C", quite cheap).

b. A good support. In England you can try several good makers, and even get your money back if not satisfied with one M brand, which is very good IMO.

Other than that, in extreme cases The most I would recommend is try a power supply on an 82 or a cd3.5.

Omer.

BTW, The 180 is not the problem, it's the solution. It has less grip than the big amps, but it doesn't sound harsher , on the contrary IMO, in tests I did besides a 250 the 250 was harsher, probably more revealing. Setup guru Peter Chappel I think would agree with me.

From the debates going on I noticed that you are also an Exposure user. Perfect! I think they are very great amps as well, (my first true audiophile amp) and was wondering if you could advice me on exposure upgrades. I have in my other home an 8-year-old Exposure integrated XX (no the super XX, but already with new fascia). Have you listened to the new crop of exposure integrateds, like the RCXXV? How do they stand against the pre-power combos? They would be driving B&Ws.

Interestingly though... I think my XX is the entry-level model, and already it has a fully regulated power supply, and a transformer which puts my NAP140 to shame. :P

cheers!
Steven

Yes Vuk, I have heard a complete Naim system (triamped, and all the assessories in a home built room to satisfy it all). He has had this complete system for nearly 10 years. He likes what he has for the very reasons everyone likes what they like, but he will readily share that he finds my system (Exposure 16 monos, 21, Neat Petite/Gravitas) more musically involving for all the reasons I like it.

I would love to "show it off" to you or any ten of your friends and we'll let the music do the talking...not the hifi.

Ber