Naim 'sound'?

Well said!

Steven,

You might want to check out the Exposure forum, which is at: http://64.70.137.136/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro&BypassCookie=true (if I am not mistaken), and your questions will be more knowledgeably answered there.

I haven't heard the more recent "super" integrateds from Exposure, but I have an old XX (35 watt) which has all the Exposure characteristics, and in a small room with small speakers (such as my ProAc Tablette Signatures) it sounds just superb. While the 21 preamp combined with one of the power amps (I use the 90 watt 4DR) produces amazing sound, I think the benefit of the Exposure products is that they all sound fantastic. Compared wit Naim, there is not as compelling a reason to upgrade in order to obtain acceptable sound, unless you just need more power. For example, I could quite happily live with my XX/Meridian 506/ProAc Tab Sig system in a smaller room, and never feel the need to upgrade.

You might, however, want to think about replacing the B&Ws. Some of the smaller ProAcs, Dynaudio 1.1s or Audience 40s, or perhaps some Royd Sorcerers (if their sound is to your taste) would probably give results that are more musical still.

Ross

Hi Bert,

I’ve got one or two friends like you and I also invariably end up agreeing that what they say is the absolute truth because it’s a hell of a lot easier than trying to disagree

I suspect your friend has a little chuckle when he returns to his naim system which doesn’t involve him in the music at all !

Cheers Big Ears (or is that very very small ears?)

Garry

My experience is that a well set up Naim system running on a decent electricity supply is not bright, not edgy, not harsh and most definitely gets you involved with the music. I have heard nasty, bright, edgy Naim systems, so I can understand where some people are coming from, but the truth is this isn't the real Naim sound. Extracting the best from a Naim system is not always easy, and maybe some people here would be better off selling their Naim gear and buying something else if they are not getting a sound that they are 100% happy with. Would I be running a Naim sytem if I had shelled out thousands of £'s but was still disappointed. No chance! After all there is not much you can do about environmental effects like bad mains, RFI, etc.

As for Exposure, I have heard some decent sounds coming from Exposure systems, notably the Exposure/Mana/Neat system at the last Bristol show and it is a brand along with a handful of others that produces equipment that is music not "hifi effects" orientated. But you have to ask yourself a few questions. Does the company offer the kind of customer service Naim does? No. Does Exposure gear hold its value like Naim? No. Can they offer service of all their kit no matter how old? Probably no. Then there is the fact that Exposure seems to be teetering on the brink of bankrupcy all the time, whereas Naim is the most successful specialist hifi company in the UK. Considering all of these, and the fact that most of the Exposure amps are rumoured to be just Naim rip-offs, I don't see them as serious competition for my money.
John

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I suspect your friend has a little chuckle when he returns to his naim system which doesn’t involve him in the music at all !

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Yes, of course, Garry. Whatever you say.

Ross

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Does the company offer the kind of customer service Naim does? No. Does Exposure gear hold its value like Naim? No. Can they offer service of all their kit no matter how old? Probably no. Then there is the fact that Exposure seems to be teetering on the brink of bankrupcy all the time, whereas Naim is the most successful specialist hifi company in the UK. Considering all of these, and the fact that most of the Exposure amps are rumoured to be just Naim rip-offs, I don't see them as serious competition for my money.

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John,

I'll ignore your speculations and rumours, and focus on the one question you seem judiciously to refrain from asking: are Exposure amps some of the most musical and involving amplifiers available? Yes.

Ross

You’re ‘aving a laugh, right?

Do you seriously think someone who has invested the sort of money needed to own a top spec’ "tri-amped" naim set up will happily accept that a cheaper alternative system is far superior - and not do anything about it? OK, we are all different and hear/appreciate different things but I doubt anyone who invests heavily in music reproduction is so devoted to one manufacturer that they willingly spend fortunes on stuff they *know* is inferior to a cheaper alternative?

Yes, of course, Ross. Whatever you say!

Garry

Thanks for the link and tip... I didn't know exposure had a forum as well. Yes, the reason why I wanted to upgrade the XX is not because of the sound, but rather the output power. I also think they offer excellent value for money and are definitely not Naim rip-offs.

Speaking of rip-offs though.... I was very surprised when I opened up my flatcap. I have to say first that it did improve the sound by quite a bit, contrary to what some contributors have been saying, that only a hicap would do for a 102. The major component in the flatcap, which costs 360 pounds, is fresh air!! One transformer, one capacitor, one bridge rectifier, 2 regulators, and a couple of resistors!! The LM317 can be bought off a catalogue, and I was told that rejects from supercaps and hicaps land up in the flatcap!!

cheers,
Steven

In the "old" forum I once posted about the obvious emphasis on mid-range in the nait 3 and CD 3.5 and was rebuked by JV (I think) that that had not been designed in(or was not there at all?) - I then suggested it could not have been accidental. Whatever, I like that sound.

Anyway, the point is that you hear what you hear and you like it or not or prefer something else. Not really worth a debate is it?

And finally, let us not kid ourselves that hi-fi is anything to do with the reproduction of live music. At best it is about the reproduction of the reproduction of live music.

cheers

Nigel

Naim equipment has a distinctive sound different from any other manufacturer I have ever heard. I am a newcomer to Naim but listened to many setups before deciding. It is very safe to say that Naim systems are 'fast' and 'exciting' (can we at least agree on this). For rock, metal I wouldn't trade it for anything!!

My only issue with the amps is that there seems to be a 'peak' in the mid/upper base. This makes dance etc. sound good but with classical/vocal it sounds too exciting. This seems to agree with some of the comments made earlier although I don't notice this with all dynaimic peaks.

I have tried many different tweaks (stands, mains, room layout etc.) but none of this has ever specifically targeted the emphasised upper base. I realise that Naim could probably produce many graphs showing flat responses but I have heard it in every Naim system, both in shops and at home (when compared to other systems).

As for harshnesh.....I've never heard a harsh system that was caused by the components themselves.

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The "pushing up" of the percussion your hearing probably has allot to do with Naim's trade mark "flat earth" sound. That is the bass signal is delivered before the treble signal, which happens to be contrary to 90% of the systems available on the market today. The tendency is to sacrifice a little soundstaging and imagery for rhythm and beat.

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Thanks Todd, I haven't had such a good laugh for, oh, half an hour or so! Without dissecting your assertion too much, wouldn't this in fact f*#% up the music by actually destroying the ryhmn (timing)? You are talking about non-linear delay in the time domain of frequency.

The flipside to your round-earth argument is that 90% of the kit sacrifices rythmn and beat for artifices such as imaging and soundstaging... which are usually caused by phase delays... but that's another argument

Whatever; Naim kit times like a bstard.

Rico - musichead

ricomuzik@hotmail.com

PS - nice post, Omer. And Tony 'vinyl-nutter' is right on the mark - it's all revealing... if it's harsh, set it up right. That you don't have to do this with other kit is redundant - you're just not 'tempted'.

[This message was edited by Rico on WEDNESDAY 13 September 2000 at 13:51.]

I am surprisd at Vuk's assertion that Exposure gear (which he has apparently never heard) imparts colouration to the sound! - this is an assumption of sizeable proportions which goes unsubstantiated and unchallenged. If I made such unsubstantiated yet critical claims about a piece of Naim equipment I had never heard I would be shot down in flames on this forum.

This is only the most recent example of unswerving dedication to the naim cause which is naive in the extreme. Of course as members of this forum many of us are heavily committed to the brand but in many ways that's an even better reason to question our fiscal commitment as Tanais for example has done. I would hate to think that a newbie stumbling across this site would buy a CD5 without comparing Arcam, Nad, Meridian too just because they listen to what the forum view is.

Too often those who prefer some other piece of equipment to naim are told that they should wash their ears out, that they are somehow profoundly deaf or the only reason they prefer the Alba TK682 to the CDX was because the CDX wasn't on Mana and the earth spike hadn't been watered in the last 24 hours!

If the Forum is to give significant value there should be a little less dogma and a little more open-mindedness. A strength of forum's such as this is their supposed impartiality. It's getting to the point here where people are frightened to admit to liking anyone else's kit for fear of the ridicule that will result.

Now - anybody ever compared a Michell Orca/Alecto against comparably priced naim eg 82/180/hicap? I was at Michell engineering yesterday getting a new belt for my deck and have to say the standards of construction and finish on the Delphini and Orca put everything else I've ever seen to shame - only wish I could have heard them.

Jonathan

Steven

There was talk on the old Naim forum that the Exposure power amp circuits were a rip-off of the Nap 250 and if I remember correctly Julian knew this and was not particularly happy about it.

If anyone has reservations about the sound then other gear is obviously available. These designs will inevitably reflect the tastes of the designers. If you want the best attributes of the Naim sound, without perceived harshness, then perhaps try some Spectral or SimAudio gear, if it’s available in your area. These designs have many of the same attributes except that they are even more revealing, tending toward the “neutral” side of musical reproduction. And be prepared to pay, especially in the case of Spectral gear. Obviously, you will lose some degree of those Naim characteristics that I, and many others, love so much, but it may be what others are looking for. But it is impossible to eliminate the Naim sound from Naim gear.

And I have a quick few words on “neutral” reproduction, as often touted in advertisements and review magazines: what is it? How does one determine neutrality? Does Naim present music in a more “realistic” and “neutral” way than, say, Krell? With all the studio recordings, recordings at clubs, live recordings, and so on, how is one supposed to know what music “sounds” like? It varies. And so it’s presentation must vary. One can only compare stereo payback to one’s experience, which is certainly not as vast as the recordings available out there. It is obviously possible for some lucky souls to hear the BPO live and to then compare it to the sound of their stereo, but can such an assessment be made for every venue on every night a recording is made? No. Therefore, I write, enjoy the Naim sound. Revel in it. But probably don’t buy Revel.

[This message was edited by Todd on WEDNESDAY 13 September 2000 at 20:33.]

As far as I know, Exposure use a full-complementary feedback topology. Workings of it are different from a quasi-complementary design. Quasi-complementary designs were popular years back because of lack of quality pnp devices.

Fact is, there are several basic topologies when it comes to power amp circuits.

I've heard half-a-dozen Naim system in as many months and they were all crippled by earth faults - my own included.

This gives a constricted, bass light, harsh, muddled sound.

cheers, Martin