NTSC/PAL, cheap DVD players and jumpy R1 discs...

Posted by: Top Cat on 26 December 2004

Hi folks.

Yesterday our DVD player died. The trusty donkey that was the Samsung 709 has given sterling service but it was all too clear that it had had its day, and was getting progressively worse at playing most any film. It would jump and corrupt - usually around the half-way point and onwards.

So, because we're waiting for the DVD-with-HD recorders to come down a bit in price, we thought we'd avail ourselves of a 'stand-in' DVD player - a Toshiba as it happens.

Anyway, great player for the money, but I have a techie question.

We've a small number of R1 and R4 (?) discs - i.e. US DVDs and some Asian Zatoichi-style swords-and-silliness flicks. As we're slumming it with a hand-me-down TV whilst we wait for the LCD tellies to come down to sensible money, we've got out new player region-unlocked and hooked up to this basic telly.

R2 plays just fine, when set to PAL. R1 and R4 play fine when set to NTSC or Auto output mode, but appear only in B&W. No colour, so much for that dang colour telly, amigos. If we switch the output to PAL, there's a noticeable-but- regular jerkiness to the picture. Almost as if the picture has a hiccup. I am guessing that NTSC DVDs are encoded with a differing FPS to PAL ones, and that our cheapo telly can't adjust its frequency to compensate, hence the step, which is most noticeable when there's significant motion on the screen.

So, we're stuck with B&W R1/R4 without jerkiness (via Auto setting for output) ot jerky colour (via PAL setting). R2, of course, is perfect.

As we're not planning on changing to a new telly for a little while yet, can anyone explain what is going on here with this jerkiness and whether there's any easy way to get around it (other than settling for a life of mono)?

Many thanks,

John
Posted on: 27 December 2004 by Marc Evans
PAL screen refresh: 50hz.
NTSC screen refresh: 60hz.

Possible frame rates on any DVD: 25fps, 29.97 fps, 24 fps.

PAL DVDs are encoded at 25fps (50/2) and NTSC DVDs are encoded at either of the other two which with some tricks can be made to fit into a 60hz refresh cycle.

~30fps (NTSC) into 50hz doesn't go so well though, hence the juddering. Most DVD players output NTSC as is without converting it but as you've already seen the TV needs to be able to cope with an NTSC signal for that to work.

Converting an NTSC picture to a judder-free PAL picture requires some very fancy and expensive electronics.

You can investigate outbound standards converters - there are a few advertised on the net but I've got no first hand experience of any of them, sorry.

A quick google came up with these though
http://www.vtx.co.uk/video/tvconverters.htm#scv1
http://www.satellitesuperstore.com/dvc.htm

[This message was edited by Marc Evans on Mon 27 December 2004 at 11:34.]
Posted on: 27 December 2004 by Rico
Some TV's do "PAL60" to cope with signals converted from NTSC to PAL yet remaining at 60Hz refresh rate. A 'cheat' to avoid the full standards conversion that Marc alludes to, above.

My multi-region DVD players (both of them) are set to auto, so's the TV's (both are full multisystem) - no trouble.

I've never some across an R4 NTSC disc - all the R4's for NZ and Oz are PAL.

What sort of TV is it (and how old) that you're using, John?

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio
Posted on: 27 December 2004 by Top Cat
Thanks, guys.

Rico, the telly is a Panasonic 21", gifted to us by my wife's grandfather, who is moving into a care-home. It was otherwise getting chucked out. It's nothing special, but beats the 14" we were using. The plan is, as I mentioned, to get a moderate-sized LCD once prices drop a bit - say a 28" - and in the meantime stick with the hand-me-down TV. We also have a Sony Trinitron 21" which is also mono; perhaps we should also try it with the DVD player (haven't so far, but I expect the same issues).

I mentioned R4 - perhaps it was R3. The particular disc in question is Zatoichi, a rather scrummy swords & fighting tale from Japan - see this IMDB link.

Most of our discs are R2 so it's not such a big problem, but obviously it would be great if we could watch stuff on the other regions with out tellies. Ah well, roll on the LCD!

Cheers,

John
Posted on: 27 December 2004 by Rico
John, many of the Panas from about 1992 on had PAL60 IIRC. I guess yours doesn't. Still, beggars can't be choosers, and best there's some more use to be had before it ends up in a landfill (sad prospect for the planet, eh?). If you have a Sony it's worth a try - many released down here did PAL60 also, and have switchable colour systems.

Are you sure you want an LCD telly? Why not a really good CRT?

Thanks for the link - will keep an eye out for Zatoichi... looks like fun.

best

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio
Posted on: 30 December 2004 by Top Cat
Hi again!

quote:
Are you sure you want an LCD telly? Why not a really good CRT?
The main reason that I'd want an LCD or Plasma is the depth - not the width or anything quality-related.

We're not in the sort of house that would work with a big, deep CRT sitting in a corner - the locations of doors, windows and fireplaces dictates where we can put a telly and in both living rooms the telly sits away from corners (which would have allowed us to hide a deeper back).

So, a flat tv of some sort would allow the TV to be bigger without the intrusion into the living space. Quality of picture, etc., is taken as read - they'll all be great by the time we're ready to change, no doubt. A good CRT would definitely appeal otherwise, but nobody does a really slim CRT for sensible money as far as I am aware...

John

PS> Enjoy Zatoichi - I know we did (we saw it first at the cinema, just had to get it on DVD!)
Posted on: 30 December 2004 by JonR
I changed from a 28" CRT to a 30" LCD about 6 months ago and does it make a huge difference - especially in my postage-stamp-sized house!

Cheers,

JR
Posted on: 05 January 2005 by Top Cat
Hi Alex,

haven't been here at the forum for a few days so only just read your suggestion. Will make a point of trying it tomorrow and will report back.

John
Posted on: 10 January 2005 by Top Cat
Belated Update: I *think* the DVD and TV are now talking together nicely. I say "think" because I've not watched more than a few minutes of anything other than a R2 DVD, but Zatoichi basically doesn't jump as far as I can tell, and Bubba-Hotep (R1) is fine also. Actually, I can really recommend Bubba-Hotep!

So, thanks (with the caveat that it might not actually be fixed - just a lot less noticeable)

John