"Presso" coffee maker

Ask Simon Matthews...

the action is way too fast - the demo video shows an espresso being made in about 5 seconds. It's supposed to take 25 so you're going to end up with very under-extracted coffee.

They also do a shitty job tamping, which, if done with a proper tamper (e.g. Reg Barber), might extend the extraction time somewhat.

As to those globs of crème at the end...

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Hi

I haven't watched the video on the website (I'm on dial-up and just can't be bothered). They have them in the local specialist kitchen shop for $200 NZD and it's a possible xmas gift suggestion to my wife.

From reading the instructions at the shop you let the water infuse the grounds for about ten to fifteen second then express. Which would make it the optimum 17-21 seconds for extraction. Also, the water has come off the boil a little so might be closer to the 94-95 degrees which is optimum for grounds. Too hot water is one of the things which spoils coffee with stovetop pots.

The grounds and the tamping are major factors in espresso machine success so they would be a factor with the Presso. Those things are controlled by the operator and would be arrived at by trial and error. (I remember setting up a grinder for a machine where I worked once and drinking six double short blacks in a row. I tried sitting down after that but I couldn't... )

Deane

THAT is a seriously COOL expresso machine!

The video demonstration is a classic case of underfilling the filter, probably to speed up the video clip.

I don't see why it shouldn't be as good as any other lever machines (but that's a thread that's been done to death here).

$200 NZD seems effing cheap, unless the NZ dollar is incredibly strong. A conventional lever machine would be circa Euro500-1000.
IF I didn't already have a lever machine, I'd buy one of those, no question.

Brian OReilly

Brian

It does seem like a good idea to me. I'm guessing it's cheap because it has no electrical parts. (Obviously that is why the Fraim is so cheap - no electrical parts! )

I'm thinking that the levers on the Presso allow the user to exert more pressure on the water and that the very hot water poured into the top of the machine expands through steam to build pressure as well. A conventional pump-driven espresso machine exerts 9.5 atmospheres through the gruppa.

I missed the espresso threads. Can anybody point me to them?

Deane

I have seen these machines and think they are a really cool idea. The video shows a quick extraction but that can be controlled by the operator, just like any other manual lever machine. As you say they are cheap because of the lack of electrical parts and the much less robust construction materials than some other lever machines and this may be its downfall. As you also say quite high forces are used in espresso extractions and I wonder if it is up to the job long term. If you do get one give us a review of it when you have mastered it,
John.

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Originally posted by Deane F:
I missed the espresso threads. Can anybody point me to them?

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One of the coffee/espresso threads.

-Elaine

Elaine

Thanks.

Deane

Given that water temperature, water pressure and time of extraction are key factors and are not controlled in the demoed product I would be surprised if this product was any thing other than a diversion on the way to making good espresso

Derek

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Derek

I suspect you're right but I thought that maybe after a lot of experimenting I could develop a knack for using it.

Years ago I managed a cafeteria with a La Cimbali machine and IMHO I became quite good at making espresso. I found that the most difficult part of making good espresso is finding a good roaster. Every man and his dog in New Zealand seems to think they can roast beans but 95 percent of them over-roast. It's a difference of about four seconds between perfection and almost-burnt, so no matter how well the grinder, doser, and machine is set up the noble flavours will never be in the coffee if they have been burnt out of the beans.

As far as domestic pump-driven machines go, I've never had anyone manage to make me a hot short black with one. They just don't seem to be made with solid enough parts to retain heat for long enough to make a hot cup of coffee. The selection in New Zealand is limited and expensive. If I was inclined to spend a large sum of money on an espresso machine I would rather spend $2500 on a single gruppa commercial machine with a reservoir than $800 on a domestic machine. The Presso seemed like it would be cheap, fun to experiment with and easy to clean.

In my experience, given well blended and roasted beans, keeping the machine clean is 50 percent of a good coffee. I can't be bothered with back-washing a home machine with caustic detergents every day.

Deane

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As far as domestic pump-driven machines go, I've never had anyone manage to make me a hot short black with one. They just don't seem to be made with solid enough parts to retain heat for long enough to make a hot cup of coffee. The selection in New Zealand is limited and expensive. If I was inclined to spend a large sum of money on an espresso machine I would rather spend $2500 on a single gruppa commercial machine with a reservoir than $800 on a domestic machine. The Presso seemed like it would be cheap, fun to experiment with and easy to clean.

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Deane,

There are Faema E62 based domestic(ish) machines, which will do the job for you. Look for Vibiemme (cheaper option) or, if you want a heat exchanger, Isomac.

Cheers,

Edo

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Given that water temperature, water pressure and time of extraction are key factors and are not controlled in the demoed product I would be surprised if this product was any thing other than a diversion on the way to making good espresso

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Agreed.

Talk to anyone who's made espresso a passion and they'll all tell you to avoid any kind of lever machine; you'll waste more shots than you drink.

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They also do a shitty job tamping, which, if done with a proper tamper (e.g. Reg Barber), might extend the extraction time somewhat.

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Mike, do you know what presenting sites like that does to those with an obsession?

Andy.

P.S. Don't even think about buying a decent espresso machine until you have the grinder for it. I finally succumbed after years of denial and it's an astonishing leap forward in consistent espresso, an extension of the source-first philosophy.

Beans - Grinder - Machine, in that order.

I've bought a semi-commercial unit, which is quite big but gives consistent results, once 'calibrated'.

P.P.S. In the UK, the best coffee I've had is from Hill and Valley (http://www.hillandvalleycoffee.co.uk/). Forget Whittards, they're stuff crap.

I'll be roastin' my own next

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Originally posted by Andrew L. Weekes:

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Given that water temperature, water pressure and time of extraction are key factors and are not controlled in the demoed product I would be surprised if this product was any thing other than a diversion on the way to making good espresso

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Agreed.

Talk to anyone who's made espresso a passion and they'll all tell you to avoid any kind of lever machine; you'll waste more shots than you drink.

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Andrew, Derek,

Look at the price, guys. It's putting an expresso machine within the financial range of a lot more people. Plus, I would have thought that the water temperature can be controlled more easily than in a non-adjustable conventional machine - too hot ? then let cool slighty before introducing the pre-boiled water.

Like you say, Andrew, I think the beans/grind/dosage have a greater effect here, and the potential for inconsistent lever pressure is all part of the fun/challenge.

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I'll be roastin' my own next

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Let's keep it clean !

Brian OReilly

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Look at the price, guys.

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What does $200 NZD buy you in pumped machines - I'm not sure.

If it really is cheap then there's little to lose and I have to confess it has a certain 'cool kitchen gadget' appeal about it.

Andy.

Things that are cheap that do not work too well and are difficult to use are ultimately not cheap

It is better to go without than to be frustrated and end up with a candidate for the next car boot sale.

Derek

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Originally posted by Derek Wright:
Things that are cheap that do not work too well and are difficult to use are ultimately not cheap

It is better to go without than to be frustrated and end up with a candidate for the next car boot sale.

Derek

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Not sure if the Illy brothers are truthful in their claims to being the inventors of the espresso process (I personally think God invented espresso) but they have said that part of their purpose was to take the skill out of making coffee so the results are more consistent.

So, given understanding of what makes a good espresso (temperature, time, grounds size, tamping, expansion of grounds under pressure, noble flavours of beans being overcome by bitter flavours etc) the Presso could be a cheap alternative to a machine.

Pump-driven machines start at $800 NZ. Presso is $200 NZ.

I don't think I'll bother though. A good grinder is indispensible if one wants to make a good coffee and I don't have a grinder at all. I wouldn't want to get beans ground by the roaster when I buy them either.

This discussion has been helpful in making up my mind.

I'll just keep suffering bad coffee that I pay for until I find a good cafe. There is only one good cafe in Christchurch (The Globe) and Christchurch is a city of 300,000 people.

Deane

O.k. I'm convinced. I can't do the espresso thing at home.
So which of the high street chains gets nearest to acceptable; Costa? Starbucks? Nero? etc.

I don't know about the motherland but in NZ Starbucks is rubbish. I'm not going back.

Just ask for a short black. If its rubbish don't go back. If it's good; go back.

A good short black tastes like nectar. At least five or six flavours are instantly and separately discernable and more follow on the aftertaste. It is velvet to swallow. No flavours are offensive. It is not bitter.

The beans are usually visible in the grinder. As a rule of thumb, if there are droplets of oil on the beans then they have been over roasted.

Deane

If you are in Portsmouth (UK) go to Danny's Coffee trailor in the Commercil Road market, he is a coffee fanatic, he has two full lever machines, one at home and one in the van.

Danny's Coffee Bar

Derek

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I was wondering if there was a general consistency with any given chain. I know my own turf, but more often than not I'm in a strange town looking for coffee, and have to choose one of the chains. My own view is that Costa is usually drinkable, I just wondered what others had found.

In case you're interested: http://www.coffeegeek.com/search?DO=&Search_SearchForm_Query=presso.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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As a rule of thumb, if there are droplets of oil on the beans then they have been over roasted.

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I'd have to disagree with this, it depends a lot on the bean, some work better with a darker roast, and oil being visible on the surface is no measure of quality.

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So which of the high street chains gets nearest to acceptable; Costa? Starbucks? Nero? etc.

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None, they are all much of a muchness.

You only need to observe the process, you'll see por or absent cleaning regime's, stale, repeatedly frothed milk (a breeding ground for bacteria if ever I saw one), ground coffee sitting in the doser for too long, incorrect and inadequate tamping, incorrect shot size, the list goes on.

Someone, somewhere must do it properly though, like this guy: -

http://www.lucidcafe.com/cafeforum/schomer1.html

Andy.