SBL to NBL?
Posted by: John L. on 08 November 2000
Hi Folks,
My primary system consists of:
CDS2/XPS
52/Supercap
2x135s
SBLs
Black Burndies and Snaiks
2xfour shelf, Base-Starbase supports
Since reaching this stage, I have been amazed at just how good SBLs can sound, but I feel that I would like a little more fullness or weight to the sound.This is not a critisism of SBLs but a personal preference.Perhaps I should say that I have owned Naim/Linn,Naim systems since 1979 and so I am no newcomer to the sound.The system I perhaps enjoyed for the longest period of time was:LP12,Ittok,Troika, 32.5,Hi-cap, 250,Saras. It had a wonderfull, relaxed, full sound, although I am the first to admit it lacked in the detail that my current system has.
I am seriously considering changing the SBLs for NBLs and hope to be auditioning a pair at home very soon. Are there any of you out there that have already bought NBLs and run them in a system the same as mine? If so, I would value your comments on the way they have changed the sound.I would also value the comments any of you may wish to contribute to my proposed change.
Perhaps I should add that I do not wish to go active and that I am one of those heretics who prefer Base for it's non effect than Mana for it's effect.
John L.
Posted on: 08 November 2000 by Frank Abela
Although I respect your approach, I would ask your dealer to lend you a NAP500 as well. The SBLs change character significantly when driven by this new amp.
In my view, you would be trading both sets of 135s for the 500 against NBLs for the SBLs. The difference in outlay would be around £1000 or so. In my view the 500 is the more musical solution and the SBLs really come out of their shell and gain in scale etc.
Regards,
Frank.
Posted on: 08 November 2000 by John L.
Hi Frank,
Thanks for your suggestion.I will certainly keep it in mind. I have yet to hear a 500 but I have heard NBLs, albeit active and was impressed with their full but detailed sound.I have organised a home demo in a couple of weeks but getting a 500 for demo is proving more difficult due to their low availability at the moment.
John L.
Posted on: 08 November 2000 by Simon Matthews
Where did the turntable go?
Posted on: 08 November 2000 by Ulrich Hohn
John,
four month ago I was a 4*Nap135 SBL owner. Before buying a NAP500 I have had a
2*NAP135 NBL home demo for two days and after that a 6*NAP135 demo for 5 days.
The third home demo was with one NAP500/SBL.
4*Nap135 SBL are better than 2*NAP135 NBL. 6*NAP135 NBL work very well, much louder
than 4*Nap135 SBL. Really great sound only the NAP500/SBL (or NAP500/NBL).
I agree with Frank.
Ulrich
Posted on: 09 November 2000 by John L.
Many thanks for your input guys,much food for thought.
I found your observations very interesting Ulrich, especialy as they confirm what Frank had already suggested. I must admit I was surprised at the conclusion, only from the point of view that SBLs should have even more on offer when fed by a 500. I was beginning to regard them as the one component within my system that was asserting it's character upon the sound as a whole.It would seem that I could well be wrong in that assumption and now that they are being fed by the CDS2, are revealing the shortcomings of the 135s.I think, based on what you have said, that I need to try to demo a 500 before making my decision.
Oh dear, I thought this was going to be an easy decision to make where making changes goes! I know that if I were to buy a 500 I will be wondering then if NBLs would reveal all that the 500 is capable of, and so it goes on.I thought I had taught myself a while back to stop listening to Hi-Fi and listen to music instead, but like the reformed alchoholic, the hankering is always there and just occasionaly the temptation gets too much and I give in.
In answer to you question Simon, I only parted with my LP12 about eighteen months ago after much soul searching.After all, I had nurtured it from arond 1978 and it was like an old friend. The truth is, it fell into dissuse after the purchase of a CDS1 and with the change to CDS2 it's fate was sealed. I had become lazy and enjoyed the ease of use the silver disc offered,and then there was the storage problem of a collection in the region of a thousand vinyl discs. They all went to happy homes and are being enjoyed still. Do I regret the change to CD only? Rarely, is the answer to that one.
John
Posted on: 09 November 2000 by Doug Graham
John,
There should be no problem in you securing a nap 500 dem. If the dealer in question has'nt got one then maybe you should advise that he talks to me.
The Nap 500 is an experience.
Later
Doug
Posted on: 09 November 2000 by John L.
Thanks for the offer Doug,
Does this mean that you have one available for home demo?
Regards,
John
Posted on: 09 November 2000 by Bob Edwards
John--
I would echo all the votes for the 500--it might be the best single piece of hifi ever made. It is that good. Having had the opportunity to hear the 500 driving SBLs I have to say it is the finest sound I have ever heard--even better than 135s driving NBLs.
As always, dem the options and invest in what makes you happiest. When it is my time, I will undoubtedly go to a 500 running SBLs and then DBLs.
Cheers,
Bob
Posted on: 09 November 2000 by P
John L - Good luck with your upgrade - unfortunately this forum might not be able to offer you any really subjective opinions anymore - the people who really know about these things are keeping very quiet these days - I wonder why? - maybe they are a little more mature and would feel embarrassed at responding amongst all the garbage and sniping being bandied around by the so called regulars and self appointed "owners" of this forum.
Enough
P.
Posted on: 09 November 2000 by Bob Edwards
Vuk--
Surely you have confused "front" (source) with middle (preamp) ? I've never heard of a 72 being a source, or the "front end" of a system.
Omer--
Never said I wouldn't think about going back up--and if I do I would take 500/SBLs over 135s/anything.
Cheers,
Bob
Posted on: 10 November 2000 by Doug Graham
John L
Seems to me that you being in Suffolk that your nearest dealer would be Basically Sound just outside Norwich (I guess that you knew that anyway) so there would be no problem in us arranging this.
Talk to the guys and it shall be done.
Later
Doug 
Posted on: 10 November 2000 by John L.
Thanks again Doug, I have been talking to Graham this morning with a view to arranging a dem in the near future. He is setting the wheels in motion for me.
Now all I have to do is find out where my wife has hidden the key to my wallet!
Posted on: 10 November 2000 by Chris Bell
Don't bother with NBLs--Go for DBLs. I have an active NBL six pack and it sounds broken compared to the passive DBLs at my dealer.
Now that I have heard DBLs I would say they are the most important upgrade next to the source. Yes, they are really that good.
Chris Bell
(recovering mana user)
Posted on: 10 November 2000 by John L.
Hi Chris,
Initialy I was going to arrange to hear a pair of DBLs, then I discovered just how big they are!
I felt that however good they may be, their sheer physical size would dominate the room that my prime system is set up in. As much as I love music, and am willing to pay a lot to reproduce it as well as possible,I don't really want to live in a Hi-Fi shop. Hence the interest in NBLs,they are as big as I want to go. It is also one of the reasons for not wanting to go active, too many black boxes!
I hear what you say though and, as is the nature of things Hi-Fi,if I am not happy with the NBLs I will probably give them a listen.
John 
Posted on: 10 November 2000 by Frank Abela
DBLs leave NBLs for dead in my book.
DBLs seem very large but aren't really that big. They impose, but then NBLs impose a bit too since they're quite deep (deeper than DBLs). DBLs are quite wide by today's slimline looking speakers,which is why they seem so big. BUT they only work against a (good) wall so they don't protrude as far as other speakers.
And as for scale - no other speaker I have heard comes close, and that includes those gorgeous Wilson benesch Bishops at £20000.
Regards,
Frank.
(PS Hey Dougie - where's my CD?:)
[This message was edited by Frank Abela on FRIDAY 10 November 2000 at 18:36.]
Posted on: 10 November 2000 by John L.
Your right Frank!
Posted on: 10 November 2000 by John L.
Your right Frank!
John
Posted on: 10 November 2000 by Chris Bell
Frank is right, DBLs are not as imposing as they seem. Yes they are twice as wide as NBLs, but they are not as deep. I have seen pics of them in Beech and Cherry and they look less imposing.
They are worth a listen as I believe in passive form they outperform active NBLs by a mile. (Guess what my next purchase is!)
Chris Bell
(Mana: Just say no!))
[This message was edited by Chris Bell on SATURDAY 11 November 2000 at 06:13.]
Posted on: 11 November 2000 by John L.
Many thanks for your contribution Chris.
I may have to get out the steel rule and check the measurements and see how they relate to my room.I know in the back of my mind that DBLs have to be better but they seem so big! How ever do you go about getting a home demo of a speaker of those proportions and weight? Seeing and hearing them in my room would be a must if I am going to consider parting with that much cash.
Ho hum, I'm beginning to think I shouldn't have started this thread! Have you ever heard the eery sound of a mature leather wallet wailing and gnashing it's teeth! 
Posted on: 12 November 2000 by Andy S
quote:
I may have to get out the steel rule and check the measurements and see how they relate to my room.I know in the back of my mind that DBLs have to be better but they seem so big! How ever do you go about getting a home demo of a speaker of those proportions and weight? Seeing and hearing them in my room would be a must if I am going to consider parting with that much cash.
DBLs aren't too imposing (sure people do a double-take when they first see them but...). They are 65cm x 40cm (WxD) IIRC and go against the wall. Personally, I feel NBLs are "larger" as they come out into the room more (but then I have a room to put them in!).
I have mine in an 18x12x8 foot room, on the 12 foot wall (take a look in my profile and you'll see a picture).
I remember Doug or Mark saying that if anyone was having a problem with a home demo and were serious, they'd arrange to get you a demo. The only problem will be when they come to take them away - you won't want to let them go!
Andy
Posted on: 12 November 2000 by David Antonelli
Chris,
What amp is driving the pasive DBLs to which you are comparing your active NBLS?
Frank,
Tell me more about the Bishops. I have never heard them, but am curious about your observations. You seem fairly impartial and have a chance to hear quite a lot of systems we mortals never see but only read about.
Dave@
Posted on: 12 November 2000 by Chris Bell
David,
My dealer is using a pair of 135s, while I have a six pack running my NBLs. I went back to the store today for another listen and sure enough the passive DBLs blew me away--and with a CDX/XPS for a source!
I am going to ask for a home dem soon-- Anyone looking for a used pair of Cherry NBLs in the US? Special blow out pricing available!
Chris Bell
DBLs: More important than you think!
Posted on: 13 November 2000 by Nigel Cavendish
Time to get your eyes tested guys, they are huge by any domestic standards.
Hooch
quote:
that the speakers hold everything back which is no real suprise as they are bandwidth limited.
Not sure I understand what this means, and are there speakers which are not bandwith limited - if so which?
cheers
Nigel
Posted on: 13 November 2000 by Top Cat
...I think Hooch is trying to say that they don't plumb the depths as much as the bigger speakers - Hooch used to use SBLs and a REL Stentor (I know; I bought it off him
) as the SBLs didn't have enough bass
oomph. His current speakers, active ATC100s, have much more
oomph and go down much lower (although I'd be very surprised if they could plumb the depths as well as the REL can)...
Stereophile classifies its reviews of speakers in this way - any speaker that doesn't have a useful frequency response <30Hz is considered 'bandwidth limited'. That covers a lot of speakers which are truly great (the soon-to-be-mine Virgos fall into the Stereophile class-A bandwidth limited category, although they have plenty of bass).
It's not a bad thing, you know
John
Posted on: 13 November 2000 by David Antonelli
Chris,
I heard NBLs in chicago with a cds2/52/ and two 135s and while I thought the had deep tight powerful base, there was a midrange musicality and realism that my CDX/52/250 Royd Albions had that the NBLs lacked. Needless to say I was a little dissapointed as I didn't think my system at that time would get within ten miles of the NBL set up. So on these grounds I've decided (now that I have a CDS 2) to upgrade my speakers before my 250 as I could see that speakers are in many cases a bigger limitation than the electronics that might be backing them.
dave
