Mazda rx 8,buy it?

Posted by: o.j. on 31 October 2004

Hy there!yesterday i sat beside a race driver
in an mazda rx8.he drove it very hard on the road.It was the higher motorized engine(think
171 k2w).to me the car looked as if it could
do everything.super chassis,strong enngine(for non race track use),really comfortable for a sportscar and 4 seats.the look is my taste
and i think this car is a really innovative one.
(wankel engine, 4doors ,and i would rate it
well built quality (as far as i saw),engine is very vibration free.
On the bad side: needs a lot of gasolin
and the torque moment in the brochure seems very low against it competitors.
As a car freak i "need" something "special"to drive without problems during the next years.
Other options could be :bmw 325 compact.
(not that special but a good car,and it costs
nearby 10000 euros more)
the new 2005 mustang with v 8 (costs 8000 euros more)
Now my Question:I am alittle bit lazy concerning the gear shifter,and i think the 140kw rx8 version will do it for me concerning
power.Is there any body who has experiences
driving an rx8 through the daily traffic jam
(stop and go ) and can comment if it is less comfortable concerning the engine than the
named competitors.Of course the new 2005 will be optical a great and special sportscar,but as an long year corvette and cadillac driver,the prestige and the sheer power are attributes i would (today )not rate that high as i did in the past.
Any comments ?
O.J.
Posted on: 31 October 2004 by tze96
But the Integra, in spite of its reputation as one of the best handing FWD cars, is still a FWD...
Posted on: 31 October 2004 by Deane F
quote:
Originally posted by tze96:
But the Integra, in spite of its reputation as one of the best handing FWD cars, is still a FWD...


Bang on. No "driver's car" can be FWD. Cars are driven with the feet first and the steering wheel second.

Deane
Posted on: 31 October 2004 by Steve Toy
quote:
Bang on. No "driver's car" can be FWD. Cars are driven with the feet first and the steering wheel second.


I don't quite follow... Confused

Regards,

Steve.
Posted on: 31 October 2004 by Deane F
Feet-first meaning that:

when a car is being driven around a corner beyond commuting speeds the amount of authority able to be gained by turning the steering wheel is governed by the adhesion of the front tyres to the road. This adhesion is able to be controlled in a rear-wheel-drive car by backing off or applying throttle (or brake). So understeer/oversteer is able to be controlled better by the feet than the hands. Careful use of the throttle can effect delicate changes to cornering lines.

Deane
Posted on: 31 October 2004 by Steve Toy
OK, got you Dean.

I agree that front-wheel skids on a FWD are far harder to steer out of than a RWD car with it's tail slide if you manage to fuck up on the accelerator/brake process.

I also agree that a RWD (like a nice Beemer) will sit on the road much better at high speeds through sweeping bends than a FWD Audi/VW/Skoda or a Ford.

However, RWD tail slide is not exactly a clever way to drive through bendy roads, despite being easier to correct.

Thus on balance I prefer FWD with a slightly negative offset steering geometry tending towards understeer. You point, you shoot and there's no rubber left on the roads unless you push things too far...

Regards,

Steve.
Posted on: 01 November 2004 by Deane F
Hi Steve

I wasn't referring to emergency driving. On tarmac, driving beyond the point of adhesion is grossly inefficient and slow. (But not as hard on tyres as driving at the very point of adhesion breakaway - ie: at the limit.)

What makes RWD cars better for drivers is the amount of feel that careful throttling gives the driver. No matter how carefully you plan a corner (if you plan corners and few people do) adjustments are always needed and these are best achieved by judicious use of the throttle. Having said that, if you have really screwed things up never forget to simply turn the wheel. Nine times out of ten you'll get around although it might be untidy.

Driving beyond the point of adhesion breakaway is fast only with a lot of skill (and revs) on loose surfaces.

Deane
Posted on: 01 November 2004 by o.j.
Hy Deane! really good explanation of the benefits of rear wheel drive!
from a "race car" position its the only correct
point of view On asphalt.Of course Rally cars on non rigid ground are driven in quite another way.(but this is not my intention)

140 kw is not a lot of power(for a race car)
but on the road its enough.In other words:
if one is able to drive the mazda really hard
most of other cars are limited by its non perfect Front /rear weight 50/50 or its high
weight.Mazda is only 1350 kilogramm.
Personally the "nearest to arace car" i know
for any price is a lotus elise/exige,caterham,
or a ferarri 355 challenge,or diablo lamborghini
Their benefits are:The good weight/horsepower relation,the very low mass of the whole car
and the of course formula one like (and theoretical optimum )of middle motor position.
Those four are:Non comfortable for all day
use.
Not even cheap.
Not 4 seaters (maybe mazda is
small inside but its allowed
for four persons.)
Not possible to adapt them
for winter use or to put skis
or a race bicycle inside
inside.

the other two mazda rx8 competitors (mustang
and bmw compact have also these (for me nessecary) attributes.
so my question remains only concerning the experiences of driving a 140Kw wankel rx8 through the daily traffic of a city.
Of course i will make soon a test drive,but
what is the impression of others?
O.J.
Posted on: 01 November 2004 by o.j.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Toy:
OK, got you Dean.

I agree that front-wheel skids on a FWD are far harder to steer out of than a RWD car with it's tail slide if you manage to fuck up on the accelerator/brake process.

I also agree that a RWD (like a nice Beemer) will sit on the road much better at high speeds through sweeping bends than a FWD Audi/VW/Skoda or a Ford.

However, RWD tail slide is not exactly a clever way to drive through bendy roads, despite being easier to correct.

Thus on balance I prefer FWD with a slightly negative offset steering geometry tending towards understeer. You point, you shoot and there's no rubber left on the roads unless you push things too far...

Regards,

Steve.
Steve!if you drive with afront wheel drive through a corner there are only two possibilitys:you are too fast and you will find your car in the meadow (no good idea to break inside the corner and throttle closing is one ofthe biggest mistakes you can do.)
second possibility you are too slow.

Versus rear wheel drive:you are too fast:you can correct the oversteer with steering wheel
and you c a n slow down closing the throttle.
and if you are too fast you can not be too slow
at the same time.
Winker O.J.
Posted on: 01 November 2004 by NB
OJ,

Do not consider the RX8 until you have test driven the Nissan 350z. It is a much better car!

I test drove the RX8 when choosing my last car and I was quite dissapointed. The Nissan was the more rewarding car. Its more driveable, its quicker and its far easier to drive.

I have had my 350Z for two months now and everytime I drive it I have a huge smile on my face.



Regards


NB
Posted on: 01 November 2004 by John Sheridan
quote:
no good idea to break inside the corner


love these old wives' tales. Far better to brake in a corner than:

quote:

find your car in the meadow


and in a rear drive (if you're at the 'limit') if you slow by 'closing your throttle' too much you're going to spin like a top
Posted on: 01 November 2004 by Hawk
O.J

I had an RX8 for a week and had to endure stop start driving on the M4... and to be honest it was a bit tiresome, not least because the car enjoys revs.. on the open road of course it was superb but i would seriously suggest you try it yourself in traffic. The car i drove seemed to lack low down grunt and in slow moving traffic it always felt like i was in either too lower gear with an uncomfortable amount of revs or being bogged down when the traffic sped up...
I should also point out that it may have been a bad car as it cut out and wouldnt start again twice during the week and had to be recovered..
Everything else about the car was great though, and it did look stunning...
Posted on: 01 November 2004 by bigmick
I think the RX8 is a fabulous car to drive, really easy to throw about. My only reservations was the toque deficit which I found made the car feel jerky and gutless around town and until you really floored it, which then became a bit wearing. Coming from a strong turbo diesel this deficit struck me more but if you’re coming from another high revving petrol then probably won’t see it as a problem and will appreciate the sweet, smooth revs. Apparently you have to check the oil every second fill up and consumption of both oil and petrol is very high. A bucket of fun though I would say that the 350Z has it beat.

This “driver’s car” mullarkey is all very well but not very real world. The theory is sound and at silly speeds through tight corners, the RWD will of course hang on and I personally enjoy nothing more than going for an early morning high speed burn down twisty A roads, charging at roundabouts. But drive an ST220 or 170, any Alfa, an R32, S3, S4 or new Audis or read reviews of Renaultsport Clios, Meganes, Type Rs and you’ll realise that you can’t dismiss the driving competence of a car because it isn’t RWD. Drive some of the lesser powered BMWs and quite a few of MB’s current offerings and you’ll see clearly that you need much more than RWD to make a “driver’s car”.
Posted on: 01 November 2004 by o.j.
John:you are right but what i wanted to say is if you are on the limit with the Fwd you have not any choice.you come into the meadow if you brake or not.(so what choice?)
Hawk!which engine version did you drive?140kw or171?
O.J.
Posted on: 01 November 2004 by o.j.
N o chance for the nissanz350.
Only t w o seats.nearby the same inside room concept
as my beloved corvette (two seats, comfortable sportscar.)Nissan costs nearby 6000 more than the rx8.and i do not like its 911 copy design,
and the futuro retro design inside.(lnot my taste).
Will try next week rx8 in traffic situation and then decide,if i can live with lack of torque moment.Driving only 20000 kilometers a year ,Gasolinprices are not my most important aspect.(specially while looking for a sportscar)
O.J.
Posted on: 01 November 2004 by Hawk
It was the higher output one, 230 something PS and a six speed gearbox.. I think it actualy has less torque than the lower output 5 speeder..
Posted on: 01 November 2004 by BLT
"John:you are right but what i wanted to say is if you are on the limit with the Fwd you have not any choice.you come into the meadow if you brake or not.(so what choice?)"
In a FWD Car if you run into a corner too fast you lift off the throttle, the rear of the car comes round and you re-apply throttle to pull the car back out of the slide. This technique can be enhanced by the selective use of left-foot braking. I have rallied FWD and RWD cars for 11 years on tarmac and loose surfaces, if it wasn't possible to get FWD cars out of big slidesthan I would have crashed a hell of a lot of times. I prefer RWD for rallying because it is easier, but FWD can be very satisfying when you get it right. I can certainly get an FWD car out of spectacular slides that would see me spin in a RWD car.
Bigmick has it right, there are plenty of non-driver RWD cars (i.e. the Volvo 740 that I once had the misfortune to own) and some fantastic FWD cars.
Posted on: 02 November 2004 by JohanR
BLT Wrote:

quote:
In a FWD Car if you run into a corner too fast you lift off the throttle, the rear of the car comes round and you re-apply throttle to pull the car back out of the slide.


Exactly!

quote:
if it wasn't possible to get FWD cars out of big slidesthan I would have crashed a hell of a lot of times.


I have gone of the road with booth FWD and RWD cars. If one drives beyond one's own abilities, that is the result.

Well, back to the subject of this thread, the RX8:

I didn't fit! And that made trying to drive it meaningless. The 350Z was to small too, but to a much lesser degree. I don't mind, if they don't want over average size people as customers, it's there problem. I have plenty of other car's to choose from.

JohanR (who owns two car's, one FWD and one RWD, to be on the safe side)
Posted on: 02 November 2004 by o.j.
My experience:jaguar Xj,bmw series 3,mazda rx8.
to me they fit like a glove ,i am 175cm.
if you are taller than 180 (i would not choose one of them)saw how those taller people looked like in these cars.
my biggest surprise was inside size (or better
non size of jaguar)difficult to enter ,and more difficult to leave the rea doors,even with my size.This was very contrary to the first impression of seeing the jag from outside.
O.J.
Posted on: 02 November 2004 by Deane F
quote:
Originally posted by JohanR:
If one drives beyond one's own abilities, that is the result.



I believe BLT was referring to rally driving. If you don't have the occasional accident when racing then you're not driving fast enough. Racing incidents are part of the equation and drivers always allocate budget for damage. Much like the old saying "if it doesn't break it's overbuilt; if it breaks twice it's underbuilt."

Deane
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by BLT
Yep, that's right - I've never crashed on public roads, you just push so much harder in any form of motorsport.
Posted on: 04 November 2004 by Not For Me
I had an enjoyable test drive in an RX8 230ps, and felt it was a good choice if you need 4 full size seats, but the look and feel of a coupe.

The reviews say the lower power version has better torque apparently, so that may be worthwhile.

DS

OTT - Hey Mr DJ

*** All the views expressed within this e-mail are the sole responsibility of DS, or the other person in his head ***
Posted on: 06 November 2004 by ErikL
Chaps,

Today I drove the RSX (Integra), Civic Si*, and Scion tC (Toyota). All much cheaper than the RX8.

The RSX blew me away. What great VFM. I think I'm buying one.

(*Same motor as the RSX, drive by wire throttle, electric assist steering. But built in Swindon, which freaked me out. Eek)

Honda Lifer Erik

('91 Accord, '95 Civic, '00 Accord,... '05 RSX if I can get invoice + $500)
Posted on: 07 November 2004 by Hawk
quote:
Originally posted by ErikL:
(*Same motor as the RSX, drive by wire throttle, electric assist steering. But built in Swindon, which freaked me out. Eek)

Honda Lifer Erik

('91 Accord, '95 Civic, '00 Accord,... '05 RSX if I can get invoice + $500)


Nothing wrong with Swindon Winker

Honda employee Neil Big Grin
Posted on: 07 November 2004 by o.j.
quote:
Originally posted by ErikL:
Chaps,

Today I drove the http://www.acura.com/models/model_index.asp?module=rsx&bhfv=7&bhqs=1 (Integra), http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Civic+Si&bhcp=1&BrowserDetected=True, and http://www.scion.com/drive/gallery/drive_tc_gallery.html (Toyota). All much cheaper than the RX8.

The RSX blew me away. What great VFM. I think I'm buying one.

(*Same motor as the RSX, drive by wire throttle, electric assist steering. But built in Swindon, which freaked me out. Eek)

Honda Lifer Erik

('91 Accord, '95 Civic, '00 Accord,... '05 RSX if I can get invoice + $500)
Erikl!
looks like a good car but torque is lot less than rx8.Isthe rsx a rear wheel drive car?
Only intrested,because i do not want to drive a
car that looks uglier than the new golf 5 (did not know until now that their are uglier cars on the market.But:i have to admit this is a matter of (My) taste ,N o t of cars quality.
O.J.
Posted on: 07 November 2004 by ErikL
Neil/Hawk,

Do you know if the Swindon plant's workforce drinks from the same water source as Mick Parry? This is an important factor in my purchase decision. Winker

OJ,

At your price point, try the S2000.