Protection of European Regional names

Cheddar cheese!

Nime

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A great deal of California's wine is rubbish, but it seems peculiar, and more than a tad hypocritical, that they feel it will be more easily sold by pretending it's French.

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There is also a hell of a load of crap "wine" coming out of Burgundy. I seem to remember reading somewhere that as low as 20% of the wine is actually worth drinking. It's amazing the number of "agricultural cowboys" around trying to make a fast buck (and getting subsidized) by making a product not even fit to drink from a region that boasts the largest number of great wines in France

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Can anyone in the States confirm whether it's still possible over there to get wines labelled with the European geographic names like Champagne, Sherry etc?

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Maybe they went out with French Fries

Seriously though, is it really true that France was accused of copying the French with champagne. Maybe not entirely stupid because French wine was saved with American help after Phylloxera nearly wiped them out.

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Originally posted by mtuttleb:
There is also a hell of a load of crap "wine" coming out of Burgundy. I seem to remember reading somewhere that as low as 20% of the wine is actually worth drinking. It's amazing the number of "agricultural cowboys" around trying to make a fast buck (and getting subsidized) by making a product not even fit to drink from a region that boasts the largest number of great wines in France

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There is indeed plenty of poor Burgundy, but not as much as you suggest. No-one gets subsidies in the EU anymore for grape/wine production. Burgundy is responsible for only 3.5% of France's wine. Half of that is from Beaujolais, and half of the rest is Chablis. Burgundy is actually tiny.

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Seriously though, is it really true that France was accused of copying the French with champagne.

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I'm not entirely sure I understand your point here.

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Maybe not entirely stupid because French wine was saved with American help after Phylloxera nearly wiped them out.

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True, although "help" is pushing it. In fact, lamentably, the responsibility for the introduction of phylloxera to Europe almost certainly lies with an over-zealous English botanist. The discovery that American rootstock was immune to an American louse was made in Europe.

To answer Nime's point: "Cheddar" cheese is but one of the obvious exemptions in being a pruduct/method whose name owes something to geography, but that's about it. Bolognese sauce, Russian salad, Dundee cake, French fries and Neopolitan ice-cream are all in the same boat. More to the point, no-one makes cheese in Cheddar (or Stilton for that matter) anymore.

I feel sorry for anyone who cannot grasp the difference between this and the (albeit only slightly semantically different) but vastly alternative situation of producers trying to pass off inferior ersatz copies as the "real thing" by using other area's names spuriously.

I know how to spot a bottle of Champagne from a bottle of urine-scented carbonated plonk, but if I buy Serrano ham, I expect the origin to be precisely that.

If the US "wins" this battle, then my expectations will no longer hold true.

California Garlic Chablee anyone?

Rod

[This message was edited by rodwsmith on Thu 23 December 2004 at 1:56.]

"no-one makes cheese in Cheddar (or Stilton for that matter) anymore"

Actually Stilton has never been made in Stilton.

Matthew

PS The very best Stliton is made by Colston Bassett and is available at Neils Yard Dairy for those lucky enough to live in thatLondon.

It's also available at our local deli and I have a whole (mini) one sitting at home, which will probably be opened tonight.

Simon

Then you definitely must get yourself some Port...

Red Port is the best for Stilton - I suppose stereotypes only become such for a reason - the tannin in the wine produces a bitter sensation which complements perfectly the blue of the cheese which does exactly the same.

Depends which retailer you're near, but Taylor's are probably the best all round company.

Courtesy of Derek, Burgundy Guide.

All the best

Rod

Matthewr wrote

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PS The very best Stliton is made by Colston Bassett and is available at Neils Yard Dairy for those lucky enough to live in thatLondon.

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Or from the actual dairy, for those fortunate to live in thatLeicestershire

Will.

Let's just hope that Milton Keynes, Basildon, and Swindon never get lost in €uropean Space !!!


Fritz Von Swisschampagneisbest

A Question -

Why does Britain call Germany Germany and Germany call Germany Deutschland? Why doen't Britain call Germany Duestchland as well? If it is what the people who live it call it why not anybody else?

DS

OTD - ACR - Sesamo Apriti - Corco Vada

*** And all the little children said "Nang Nang Nang ***

Time for a re-run of the MPFC wine sketch. Peppermint flavoured Burgundy etc.

Howard

"Why does Britain call Germany Germany and Germany call Germany Deutschland?"

Because most English people don't speak German so wouldn't understand what you meant by Deutschland and you end up with, for example, people going on holiday to Austria by mistake.

Conversley most Germans speak excellent English so the logical thing is for them to switch over to the international standard and call Germany Germany. If the EU were any good they'd pass laws like this instead of banning traditional English phoneboxes and the like.

The problem is even worse in cases like the city of Paris which, although it's the same word in both French and English, is impossible for an Englishman to pronounce correctly ("Paree") without raising their eyebrows and making an elaborate hand gesture and then looking terribly self-conscious.

Matthew

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Originally posted by matthewr:
If the EU were any good they'd pass laws like this

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Then we'd all have to call it Allemagne.

How come, if the word "Bombay" is an offensive anglicisation, we can't buy "Mumbai Mix"?

Or Beijing Duck, come to that.

I think we call Germans Germans because of the Romans and a particularly crude set of vandals. It's probably very racist, like referring to natives of the UK as 'anglo saxon'.

Paul

OK , but do people in all the tiny countries in the world have thier own words for all the other countries?

Do the people in Kyrgyzstan have thier own name for Britain?, Sussex?, even Brighton ?

And Vice Versa?

DS

ITIR - William Seward Burroughs - Dr Benway Operates

*** And all the little children said "Nang Nang Nang ***

Unlike being meaningless in Ingrisch "Eng" in German means narrow/thin + land, work that one out cheps, innit.


Fritz Von Battymountain's

To go back to the original start of the thread, the EU has rebutted the claims made by the Americans - here.

It sounds as though Robert Zoellick spoke out of turn...

Peter Mandelson no less! Is this a good or bad thing? Does Hartlepool make anything unique?

Rod,

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I'm not entirely sure I understand your point here.

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I mean'nt to say the cute advertising about champagne made in the states by saying "watch out for those French trying to copy the real stuff" or something like that.

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I know how to spot a bottle of Champagne from a bottle of urine-scented carbonated plonk

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This is a fine statement coming from a wine writer. I hope that you are not implying that I don't know the difference. Anyway, good for you, I'm glad you can tell the difference. I certainly would'nt take on your recommendations if you can't. As well, the champagne region also comes out with a fair bit of crap just like any other wine regions of France.

Anyway, enough whining....

One can only wonder then why the Swiss Champagne point (made by me at least three times on this thread)hasn't been commented upon by any of you 'experts' ? as well as being the very essence of this thread's subject matter , innit ?

Hippy Harringay's

Fritz

Well, the crux of my point in this thread is that there is no such thing as "Swiss Champagne". Champagne is a place, in France.

There are however some extraordinarily good sparkling wines made in Switzerland, especially in Valais.

The Swiss do not label their Sparkling wines "Champagne" and have not done so since 1992.

With one exception. And this is where it does get interesting. Of all the European regions attempting to protect their name, the Champenois have been the most over-zealous. They have even had the term "Methode Champenoise" banned.

The word "Champagne", however, is simply an archaic word, of Latin origin, that means "Countryside" (roughly). There are several in Europe, including an area of Cognac (you may seen "Fine Champagne" on the label), and the region of Campania in Italy.

There is also a small town/village called Champagne in Switzerland (on Lac Neuchatel) which, you guessed it, produces fizzy wine (and has done for many centuries). The French want the word "Champagne" taken off, the makers say, quite reasonably, that it's the name of their village and can and should be on the label.

All of this is a bit academic as Swiss wine, very good though a lot of it is, does not leave Switzerland much. The cost of production and various taxes are too high.

Does that answer your question Fritz?

Mtuttleb, I've obviously upet you, sorry. I was not implying that you couldn't tell the difference between anything, but it is often hard to know from the packaging alone, and of course it is too late otherwise. I may not fall for someone trying to pass off "Champagne" or any other wine, but I'd like not to have to scrutinise the packaging of various cheeses, hams and other charcuterie etc to avoid making mistakes. If it says something on it, I think, as a consumer, I have a right to expect that's what it is.
Coincidentally-named Swiss villages aside, of course.

And I'm not being European about this. For example I think in California, the word "Napa" should be protected. And the name Stellenbosch in South Africa. It is possible to get "fakes" of both of these, although not exported. In fact the only place where they could be actually illegal, is the EU..!

The US is trying to change this situation. Erronously I think. That was my point.
I think you should give Burgundy another chance, by the way. If you read somewhere that "only 20% of it is worth drinking" then you read it at about the same time as the "Austrian wine has antifreeze" non-story. It wasn't true then, and it's less true now.

Have a great Christmas.

Rod

Nice rundown Rodders, Cheers for that. I refer to a small Swiss Town called Champagne (as you say) that's produced a sweet red wine for Centuries (not for export) and will require to change its name when/if das Schweiz joins the EU, innit. (does that count ?)

Fritz Von I'vetoldyoubillionsoftimesdon'texagerate

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Mtuttleb, I've obviously upet you, sorry. I was not implying that you couldn't tell the difference between anything

I think you should give Burgundy another chance, by the way.

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Rod,

OK I do see what you mean regarding names and the appelation-controllé.
This just goes to show what I was saying that there are so many "cowboys" around that it gives the small and honest viticulteur, who produces a good product, a bad name as well as almost running them out of business. Fortunately they have a good product and some good customers that they don't. This is obviously applicable to many other quality products.

Don't get me wrong. I like Burgundy Reds and Whites very much. Not the bog standard Bourgogne passe-tout grains though. My brother in law used to be in the French Military near Dijon and has a few "friends" in Mercurey. He also used to be near Reims and Cahors as well. Although he has recently moved away from Dijon and that source has unfortunately dried up.

I must admit though that my cellar is more inclined towards wine from Médoc, St Emilion (Grand Cru) and Alsace (because we pass by it alot).

Apart from Alsace, where we buy direct and the wine that my brother in-law gets for us, we are now more inclined to buy wines at French supermarkets "Foire aux vins" where it is possible to taste and pick up some very good wines at very reasonable prices.

Anyway, I wish you also a good XMAS

Mark

This weeks problem of the industrialized world...

JohanR