SACD: Dead Man Walking or Dead Man Walking?

My approach (like that with CDs a few years ago) is to wait and see, and only invest in a player when it is easy to buy the software in my local record store. I see no reason why SACD should not be as good or better than CD from a technical point of view, but for me there is no point in auditioning it for a few years unless my CD player keels over.

dozy

I also did an audition on the sony's sacd player a few months back. In the system was the top of the line sony scd1/PS power plant top model/conrad johnson amps/stella speakers. I was really shocked at the kind of sound the system was producing. It didn't play a damn tune although it excelled in "audiophile" aspects. We were playing a disc by the cincinnati pops orchestra which consists of both sacd tracks and normal cd tracks on the same disc. Ironically, both my friend and i felt that the cd version was miles better. We just couldn't believe it, so we tried the sacd version again. As expected, everything fell apart. I think it's more of a tradeoff between(unrealistic) details and musicality. When we left the place, we can't help but wonder what is this craze about.

Laxton

I heard the full Sony sacd trip last year in San Fran and I agree. Dead. Like a mid-seventies pill-party. Who passed out the 'ludes, man?

daveê

Chaps

I have not followed the tech discussions of the merits of SACD in the comix, nor that of the DVD audio and related formats. A friend, who has purchased an top, or near-to-top Sony SACD machine, raved about the format. My equal ravings about the CDSII (as a vinyl replacement in most cases) has piqued his interest enough to explore the CDSII. He explained to me the advantages of SACD as a music archival format for the master tapes that are decaying as we speak, and that this was the basis for the design/development of the format... and that it's a bonus to have this released for public consumption. Sounds logical to me!

Now to play devil's advocate, I understand that those who've listened to this format thus far have been distinctly underwhelmed; but is it not possible that SACD could indeed sound rather good in subsequent years, with better (read: Naim) execution of the players/mastering? errr sort of like the way CD took years and meticulous engineering to finally sound on a par/better than/almost as good as ** vinyl.

Or is the explanation horseshit, SACD is the devil's work, our earth is still flat, and my contention just the musings of someone whose glass is always half full?

Interested in your thoughts.

** = depending on your point of view

Rico - musichead

I have heard SACD on the first (££££££) Sony player. Interesting but not fun would be my assessment. I have not yet been able to hear DVD-A. Most reports I have heard say DVD-A in in some way worse than SACD. I was not interested enough to remember why.

I think in general the views given above, such as let us wait until the development of the format brings a more mature player out (for either format) is sensible. Remember the first CD players?

I have some other worries. The development of audio reproduction is not the first concern of many major manufacturers. Wadia went out of business by, alledgedly, ignoring AV. DVD-A discs will be have audible watermarks as part of the copy protection system. The most popular music formats seem to be minidisc and MP3.

It is quite possible that CD will be the last mass produced,non-compressed single media format. I think we will have convergence of all 'entertainment media' onto a single format - probably hard drive and memory based. What worries me is, as this will be a "one size fits all" aproach - and most folks have some gaudy ghetto blaster and are happy with it - will such a format be aimed at the audiophile music lover? I doubt it. It doesn't matter how much we love Naim - there is little they can do if the basic software they are working from is some badly compressed rubbish. OK - compression algorithms will get better ... but how confident are we that the actual quality will get better when 90% of folks will put have a cool / convenience (aka small and blue flashing lights) system winning over sound quality any day.

Get depressed. Open a vein. Start collecting a lot of recordings.

Jonathan

I generally reject the notion that new digital formats will become significantly better as time goes on for the simple reason that digital recording techniques have been around for over 20 years, and playback for about 20 years. Sony and Philips have enormous experience in this realm, and Sony have their remasterings to prove they know there stuff, so they should be able to get it right from Day 1. The current environment is not at all like the launch of CD.

That written, there may be minor improvements in sound, but not significant changes. Perhaps, they (Sony and Philips) could argue that the limiting factor is ancillary gear that cannot deal with the new format properly, so all those electronics and speaker manufacturers will have to back to the drawing board. Speakers perhaps, but plenty of pre-amps and amps can handle the entire frequency range captured on SACD. I think it's just not a viable format. As proof, over a year and how many releases are there?

...heard a SACD player through a Naim system?

I mean, many on this forum would not get along with a CDSII through Levinson and B&Ws...

And those finding SACD less dynamic might be surprised to hear it sitting on a decent stand and through a Naim system.

Just a thought - maybe we're writing it off too quickly? Tho I agree - where or WHERE is the software?

- GregB
Freedom is not in finding the Holy Grail but in stopping the search for it

Hi everyone,

I have an interesting story to contribute to this topic. About 6-8 months ago i purchased a Sony SACD player (SACD1). I work in retail, and we sell Sony,so after getting an employee accomodation price (50% off retail)i decided to give it a try.I purchased about 8 or 9 SACD's and started listening to the player.

The player sounds pretty good with regular cd's, and compared to my Linn Karik/Numerik it just simply sounds better.More detail,tighter bass and just more involving,much more musical.My system,by the way, is a 52/supcap/135's/and JM Lab Meganes (mid size bookshelf speakers).I also have a Linn LP12/prefix/aro/xv1/armg
so i know what a good source can sound like.

When i would play the Sony in the SACD mode,i just didn't hear the big difference that ALL the reviewers in ALL the magazines claimed they had heard. I was a little dissapointed. My system didn't sound too good to start with,I knew the speakers were not placed properly,the room had really boomy bass, and pianos had a bright glare to them,so i knew i had to work on the speaker placement and the room! I also knew i was going to replace the speakers so i was a little lazy about getting the bookshelf speakers in the right spot.

I eventually got my new speakers,(JM LAB Mezzo Utopias),another employee accomodation,(it really helps to be in the business). I listened to the new speakers for several months letting them break in before making any quick judgements,but i still did not hear the big difference i was expecting from the SACD's.I still knew the system was not "right"yet.The bass was still boomy and the glare from the pianos were even worse.The speakers were still not in the right place. After listening to the advise of my local Naim dealer,i moved the speakers closer to the rear wall(30" my room is 17' x 12')and this made a huge difference!Everything fell into place.The bass was very tight and controlled and those glaring pianos had been tamed and the transients and the dynamics of these remarkable speakers really shone through now.

I read a review on the SACD1 that said the SACD section of the player takes a very long time to break in,longer than usual.I decided to play an SACD disc on repeat,non-stop for 5 or 6 days straight.
Now that the speakers were in the "right" place and everything sounds great and the sacd section is properly broken in i decided to play some SACD's and low and behold i was amazed!

The first thing i noticed was the resolution from top to bottom was incredible.I was hearing detail i never heard before,MUCH more analog sounding,MUCH smoother and relaxed but not boring,the presentation just has a certain kind of ease to it, but very much alive! The bass on the Mezzo Utopias is incredibly fast and tight,and the SACD format really let this quality shine through.The speed of the bass is truly remarkable with the SACD's.

I brought my SACD player over to a friends house who has a very high resolution system, Quad ESL57's,Quad tube amps,ect,and when we played SACD's through that system our jaws dropped!!!
Every time we played regular cd's they were dull and lifeless compared to the SACD's.The SACD's just came alive,the pace and timing was unbelievable,and you simply forgot you were listening to a stereo,you were just left with the music!

I think the moral of the story is,if your system is not set up properly,(which in my experience, most dealers could not set up a system properly to save their lives)or the player has not been broken in long enough,you probably will not hear what SACD is capable of doing,but if you take the time to get everything else right you wont believe what SACD can sound like.

SACD has incredible potential. Lets not forget what the first cd players 20 years ago sounded like,and look how they have improved over the years. I look forward to the improvements that will come to the SACD format with research and development.

My turntable is still better but it closes the gap by a HUGE margin!!!

HAPPY LISTENING!

Scot Hurwitz

[This message was edited by Scot Hurwitz on SATURDAY 28 October 2000 at 06:31.]

Now come on chaps - there's a bit of vested interest here isn't there?

I could argue that some of you heavily committed to CD as a format are now faced with the prospect of having to replace a sizeable collection with SACD/DVD-A because though the new players will play the old discs, you know that you aren't necessarily at the leading edge of sound reproduction anymore and that is irritating.

Properly engineered SACD will be better than CD because it carries more musical information on the disk and is thus inherently a more accurate 'sample' of the original. The fact that a Sony SACD isn't better (yet) than a CDS2 is testament to the immaturity of the production know-how not any flaws in the base technology itself. There is the glorious prospect for the analogue die-hards now of leapfrogging that 'abomination' that was conventional CD and moving straight from analogue to a superior digital technology - I only wish I'd held out longer!

Sony seem to be making a complete hash of SACD because as owner of one of the biggest record labels in the world you might have expected them to make a better job of getting software out there - until that happens sadly the format is dead in the water.

My guess is that DVD-A has the best chance of succeeding once the MLP debacle is resolved because it has greater industry weight behind it. The other manufacturers don't want SACD because it is yet another Sony/Philips standard.

I believe that there are a lot of people out there who would be quite keen on trying high resolution audio through their existing home cinema set-ups and this will happen when every midi-system in the land is fitted with DVD-A players provided the record labels support it - and lets face it they've a strong incentive to if we all go out and buy our favourite albums again on a new format.

Those of us who value quality should be praying that either SACD or DVD-A succeeds - if it doesn't the mass market will swing behind compressed internet MP3 and the like - and music lovers like us and companies like Naim will be condemmed to an eternity of audiophile hell.

Conventional CD isn't an option - it's dead already with unit sales down significantly this year.

Jonathan

In addition to earlier post about potential formats ... SACD vs DVD-A .. can they survive together. OK .. in this case one player could play all (see earlier pessamism) BUT

I bought a Betamax. It was superior (that is why I bought it) and two years later it was useless.

I'm waiting.... and I think I'll be waiting so long I'm going to buy a CDS2 in the meantime. I might even buy a proper vinyl thingy - what ya call it - oh yeah 'turntable'- I know I can get software for a turntable...

Jonathan