Surely a Better Loudspeaker-----than this?
I've had a busy upgrading time since being reunited with my hifi after 3yrs in Australia
Then (sept 2000):LP12/ittok/oc9/marantz cd63/42.5/110/monitor audio 852golds
Now: newer lp12/cirkus/ armageddon/ aro/oc9/ cdi/ 72/hicap/250/
SBL’s
NAC5,Black snaics, mana 5 tier referenced + ref. Table for CDI
Biggest improvement=Aro(£300)
Biggest per buck was a snaps2(£70)
On order is a prefix and lyra lydian
At naim is my naxo 2-4 and I was planing to go active with my just serviced 160
All s/h with the hicap and 250 being 1 yr old and the cdi just serviced I’ve had a great time and each improvement has been worthwhile in the only way that matters—increased listening time and enjoyment
To cut to the chase—I’ve loved every thing with Naim on it but the SBL—I find unlistenable.
I posted about a month ago in a similar vein couldn’t believe what I heard so sent them back to Naim---they have new bass units and I’ve spent £70 getting the tweeters and PXO’s checked out. I’ve had music breaking in the drivers 24hrs a day(low level) for near 2 weeks.
In head to head comparison with Epos ES14’s,MA 852 golds,Mission 760i’s and £50 JPW mini monitors
MY SBL’s turn Jamiroquai (or anything with drive)into a messy mid range muddle,detail of quieter background instruments and vocals is just not there---In one track a whispered vocal is intelligible on all the above speakers but not the SBL. The main issue however is the treble. I know metal dome tweeters can be over the top but the Epos and MA’s make my Jazz cymbals crash they seem to quitely hiss on the SBL’s. With this lack of treble goes all the dynamics and that indefinable sensation of the instrument sounding exciting,real and actually there.My foot just doesn’t tap and my hairs on my neck don’t move. The JPW’s and Missions are of course very floored but my finger doesn’t hover over the ‘next’ track button in the same way
So many posts say the sbl sound awful unless set up ‘right’—well mine are resealed with new pads and pushing on the driver reveals the seals are airtight.—they are against the wall and moved very gently for the comparisons. What are the other things can you do ‘wrong’ to them?
Conclusions
1)The SBL just produces music in a way that makes me want to turn it off—absolutely refuse to believe this-- everything Naim I’ve upgraded to has been a delight. I’ve heard credos+Dbl’s and loved them.
2) There is still something very wrong?(PXO) with them despite throwing
£400 at them-----but everything checked out at Naim
3)They just don’t work in my small room3.5x4m(the Epos’s do boom a bitthe sbl’s don’t boom—bass is good)
4)the mains to my flat has 11 floors of fridges e.t.c between it and the ground—despite this the system sounds great—but the CDI especially is a little variable and can sound over warm in the evenings.
5)Maybe I just like overbright forward speakers and ?all of the above by chance are like that.
The SBL MUST be an excellent speaker—1000’s can’t be wrong but what the hell has happened to mine—
So anyone had problems with room sensitivity?----anyone found the treble very laid back.
Well I’m going active when the naxo is back from Naim(I know I should have got an 82 in preference—but I’ve always dreamt of active) and may be that will get rid of a bad PXO and transform the SBL(epos + MA have 1 component only xovers)—otherwise its to active Kans which I know I like-the epos or MA’s aren’t perfect(not high end). I’ll then sell the SBL’s at a loss. Still this is the risk of S/H versus auditioned and returnable bought new. I’m pretty sure a dealer wouldn’t be happy to audition requiring reseal—the sbl is such a pain to transport and I only get 3 full days off a month(a British Dr!!!) to muck around with.
Any thoughts or help anyone?
Cheers Richard
(PS Naim have been incredibly helpful but I’m sure they’ll think I’m mad or deaf with this one)
[This message was edited by Richard Paget on SATURDAY 30 December 2000 at 20:47.]
Posted on: 30 December 2000 by Allan Probin
Richard,
Unless Naim are modifying your Naxo while its in for a "check-up", you can't go active with a 250 and a 160. You need two 250's or two 160's.
The way you describe your SBLs just doesn't sound like SBLs are supposed to sound. I think what you need is something they call "a second opinion" in medical circles. Pity I'm not local as I'd pop round and have a listen just as a "sanity check" (medical term again, sorry).
Allan
Posted on: 30 December 2000 by Jonathan Gorse
This one has got me stumped - I can't say I have ever found the treble laid back on SBL's - indeed it's one of their greatest strengths. Given that naim have serviced them unless they were damaged in transit it seems unlikely that they are faulty - here's some thoughts:
1. Have a look at the tweeters and check they look OK
2. Check that they both are producing some sound by sticking your ear near the tweeter with music playing
3. Pop into your nearest naim dealer and ask to listen to their SBL's - SBL set up can be sub-optimal but in my experience the sound is usually recognisably SBL like even allowing for variations in local room acoustics etc so you don't need them to set up a special dem - just listen to a set in the showroom - you'll know if they sound like yours at all - the performance you are describing is so poor as to imply something is fundamentally amiss.
4. As Allan says see if any other naim owners local to you can pop in for a listen
5. Check the speakers are rigidly spiked to ground and there is no rocking motion of the bottom cabinet relative to ground
6. Be aware that SBL's should not be moved EVER without reassembly - if you wish to compare them with your other speakers leave them in situ. Mine haven't moved an inch in fourteen months - it took 3 hours to level them and set them up and I'm buggered if I'm repeating that again in a hurry!
7. Think about soft furnishings close to the SBL's - they may be absorbing high frequency energy and making the resulting sound dull.
Hope this is helpful.
regards,
Jonathan
Posted on: 31 December 2000 by Richard Paget
thanks,
The tweeters are definately still producing sounds. #
Allan thanks---As for going active ---it is possible(with minor 'surgery' as you said) to go for different amps as long as they are both Naim and therefore have the same voltage gain. You do need to either make up special leads or swap over 2 leads on the sockets inside the patient to make the Naxo output horizontal rather than vertical.i.e 1 socket(amp) treble and the other bass rather than 1 amp for left and one right which is the standard setup and requires 2 identical amps. I spoke to Naim(very helpful as I said) who say many do this successfully--there isn't a issue with ground loops which is the worry ---but of course they don't officially recommend this and would prefer not to be the surgeons. a 250/110 active setup would be madness but my serviced 160 sounds excellent and will be a good stop gap I hope and give a decent improvement over passive 250.
Thanks for the feedback on the SBL--reassuring that noone has posted saying the SBL is a love it or hate it type of speaker.My gut feeling is that for some reason it just hates my room and system--but it does sound truely dull and boring(my girlfriend said 'woops' after hearing a few tracks).The active setup will give me access to some tone controls i.e the tweaking the potentiometers inside---?will bring out the treble
and will get rid of the PXO.
Is there anyone in London who wouldnt mind a visit from me(or to visit me) and who own SBL's.I'll bring some beverages and chocolate!!!!! Perhaps we could try out my tweeters and you could get to hear my Monitor Audios. I live in Hammersmith W6.(p.s I can't offer you a free medical in return--I only look after children--an expert on runny noses and rashes only therefore)
As for local dealers the ones I've visited have given me the impression that they are used to watching a steady stream of 500's leave their shop daily and helping with some dodgy s/h speakers is far from a priority--anyone got some recommendations?
Thanks for your responses Richard
[This message was edited by Richard Paget on SUNDAY 31 December 2000 at 10:40.]
Posted on: 31 December 2000 by BrianD
Richard
Can't add much to what others have suggested. You really have to get a second opinion and/or a dealer demonstration. In the meantime it may be worth checking the connection between the crossover and the drive unit. If you have a 'dodgy' connection I'm wondering if you could get a reduced output, leading you to believe that they're ok because you can hear something with you ear close up.
FWIW I owned Epos 14's for 3 years and I think the SBL is a massive upgrade in every area. They really shouldn't sound poor in comparison.
Brian
Posted on: 31 December 2000 by Mike Harris
Richard,
As I have mentioned before, on this Forum, I have had SBL's for approx 5 years. Its always been a bit of a love/hate relationship. Some things they do well, others not.
I have recently changed to Active ATC100's, which are a vastly different speaker ;-)
I still have the SBL's, and I have somebody interested in buying my old system, but you could pop over and have a play if you would like.
We could setup CDS1, 82, SC, 250 and SBL for a listen. Could also put a SNAXO and another 250 in to dem active....
You could even hear what Mana does for them ;-)
I am in the other side of town - Buckhurst Hill - but the offers there if you want a sanity check!!
cheers
Mike Harris
<mailto:mikeh@mite.net>
Posted on: 31 December 2000 by dave simpson
Richard,
The lack of treble is might be caused by set-up error with your mana rack.
I used DMS with Naim-sourced Scanspeak domes ( the SBL tweeter) with a Mana supported naim rig. In my early days with Mana I discovered overtightening the nuts on the rack would cause increased dynamics but reduced bandwidth (less treble and bass). This effect got worse over everal days as the rack and gear "settled" and burned-in.
The SBL domes are very revealing with respect to the Mana set-up issue, more so than my Hiquphon domed DMS.
If you think I might be barking up the right tree, please e-mail me or join us in the Mana Forum for set-up details.
hope this helps.....
dave
Posted on: 31 December 2000 by Top Cat
quote:
Biggest improvement=Aro(£300)
Really? Man, that's a good price indeed - I've just paid a fraction under £500 for once s/h - wherever did you find one for £300... I'm jealous now, perhaps I paid too much?
John
Posted on: 31 December 2000 by Michael Dale
Don't know if this helps or not, but when I had SBL's I moved them into a room similar in size to the one you are dealing with. This was done because the arrival of a piano meant my usual room had no wall to put the speakers against.
The SBL's in the new room placed against the short wall about 6ft apart sounded slow, dull and totally boring to listen to. I had a dealer friend come and have a listen and he tweaked and faffed about, basically doing all the stuff I'd done myself, moving speakers backwards and forwards, ckecking cables and racks for tightness.He knew it sounded odd and I was disappointed that he didn't sort it out. In the end I moved the speakers so they had their backs against the LONG wall about 7 or 8 feet apart and the sound transformed into a punchy, bright and dynamic magical sound. The difference was staggering, as all along I was convinced something was broken, and all along it was the room destroying the timing and tonal balance.
SBL's when working right are really exiting.Rooms can really play havoc with a systems performance. I have some studio monitors which I use for work. They sound great in my home studio and crap in my friends home studio, even with the same amp. His room makes them too harsh.
Muck about with the placement of the speakers. You can always get the pads and gasket re-done once you've found a part of the room they work in.
A bit of experimentation and I'm sure all will click into place.
Good luck and Happy New Year.
Mick Dale
Posted on: 01 January 2001 by Richard Paget
Posting late--bad hangover---owch!
Thanks for the advice everyone.
Have cleaned all the connections--no change
Michael your experiences with the SBL's are interesting--it sounds that they are very position and room sensitive--maybe this is the answer.I'll be moving in a couple of months--maybe i'll wait to give then a second chance in a new room if going active doesn't sort things out---there completely unlistenable in the current one.There is always 'bariks if the room is big enough.
My system through biamp 160/250 +MA's sounded just phenomenal this weekend(2 weeks post CDi+160 recap)---I'd be stunned if active sbl's could beat this. Maybe I should just buy better stands for the MA's(e.g Linn Sara) sell the naxo+sbl's and buy an 82.
Mike your offer of a mental health check sounds great thanks--I'll email you-maybe we can arrange something at your convienience---It will be great to hear SBL's working successfully and your comments on them.
Dave I'll try to loosen off the Mana bolts--to me the addition of Mana definately made the LP12 more musical(much less effect on CDI)--but there was no 'transformation'.It was a good upgrade but for the £700+ it cost me not spectacular compared with S/H Naim upgrades.So I'll be interested to see if the answer for me being less enthusiastic than others on the forum lies with the overtight bolts--and see if this improves the treble.
(taking the feet off the 72 and sitting it on its own Mana shelf(with loose sleave) was a definate improvement IMHO)
The Aro for £300 was cheap--the art for me was to ring the ads where someone is selling a complete t/t + arm/cartridge setup and see if they will split.--component values are often less when someone works out what they want for the total package.This bargain outweighs some of the £'s lost on the SBL's--you win some and you...........
Cheers Richard
[This message was edited by Richard Paget on MONDAY 01 January 2001 at 16:47.]
Posted on: 01 January 2001 by Philip Pang
Richard
1)SBLs are extremely fussy over positioning - I have mine just a little over 4 ft tweeter to tweeter; love them in that distance in my 9ft x 11ft room - the music grooves. Tried wider distances, and apart from the additional holes on the wood floor (painful sight...), they did sound more "diffused" to my ears, although marginally "wider" in the staging.
2)Make sure they are equi-distant to the side walls, with everything around them as "constant" as possible, for eg : damping materials, furniture, racks, whatever. This affects their sound as well (when does it ever end....!)
3)Muddied sound could be due to the mid-bass cabinet sitting on the rubber gaskets rather than on the spikes - if they are - get the holes on the base of the cabinet resealed with putty, with new aluminium pads, let the putty dry and re-seal with fresh gaskets again! The mid cabinet should never rock. Hold the cabinet sides very gently, and see if they sit firmly on the lower bass cabinet. Re-check (you'll have to get down to all fours to get your eye level with the seal) that the cabinet has only just sunk about 1-1.5mm into the bass cabinet spikes. This also means that the spike tips are just hidden from view. The silicone should look a little squashed, but should not overflow onto the bass cabinet top, which will effectively couple the two adjourning cabinets together to an extent - and that kills the mid, the bass and rhythm.
4)Mana racks are notorious for sounding totally off when not set up properly with our Naims, resulting in harsh treble, and a less than convincing midrange. The bass even fades into oblivion... So set up is really crucial. Get it right, and ... wah....! I would take the trouble to reset the entire rack again - usually it should sound better. It's alot of grunting and work - but what the hell - it's Mana! If not, buy Hutter...
5)Last, treat the room carefully for acoustics! Bad room acoustics - bad sound.
Hope this helps.
Good listening; the music's still groovin'.
Philip
naimniac for life
