The look of the "5" seria
Posted by: Arye_Gur on 16 December 2000
To be honest, I actually feel it makes my gear look just a little bit dated style-wise.
However a modern-looking wooden stand is all it takes to make any hifi look (and sound) good.
Dev
In my lounge I have ruddy great ugly speakers sitting on very unattractive paving slabs and chunky 'speaker cable in "basic electrical insulation white" running out the front of my rack and into the room - to ensure it goes nowhere near the mains cables. My second pair of monoblocks don't fit on the rack - and so are on ever more unpleasent looking lumps of rock - leveled with bits of cardbord. Distribution block, mains conditioner and 'speaker cables hook / wind in and out of bits of furniture and round my one pot plant (I only have one as I was bet I couldn't / wouldn't look after it - but we forgot to set a time limit on the bet four years ago..) and very careful wiring ensures the playstation can get sound output into my pre- without screwing up and of the music. I say 'careful' - but at first glance it looks more like 'randomly thrown.'
It all sounds bloody marvelous - but it just gives another good reason for listening with your eyes shut.
So ... in this environment - who give a t**s what it looks like?
OK - so I live by myself (you'd guessed, hadn't you?) and as such I am under no great pressure to provide a nice looking environment. Or hoover often. Or should that be 'dyson often' ?
But, hey, paint the things like haiwaian shirts if you like. I'm still buying more of the things.
Leaf spring multi-decoupled suspension. I'm impressed. Glowing logo. Don't care. Looks 'plastic-y' - like wow. It can look like a pile of vomit if it sounds better.
Press play. Shut eyes. Whilst I'm not looking, Miles Davis and John Coltrane sneak out from behind the curtains and start playing at the end of the room. Good enough for me.
Sorry - having a bit of a bad day. Needed this - thanks.
Jonathan
If I were to offer you 1 of 2 amp systems that sound the same but:
system A looks super-fine
system B looks like a pile-o-sick
which would you choose?
Of course I'd prioritise sound over looks, but why not have both?
The best way for Naim to go with their casing would be to have acrylic cases (a la DNM) with glass heatsinks. Not for looks, but for sound. Non-metallic casing prevents re-radiation back onto the circuit board.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;
Actually, I really don't care that much. Above my rack hangs a print of Camille Pissaro's "Boulavade of Monmatre at night" and IMHO everything else in the entire world looks complete pants when compared to this masterwork. This includes Vuk's Sam Fox picture-disks. If I want to look at something pretty I'll stare at the nice Pissaro.
(Uh-oh, already starting to sound a bit like Mick! I thought I had a few years left before )
However - you have reminded me something that I, as once an avid pure mathematician, should not have lost sight of. Great beauty usually comes when form and function are perfectly aligned. You know when a proof is right - because it has a sense of rounded, elegant completeness. You know your system of mathematics is about to break down when proofs started looking like the pile-o-sick (nise phrase, BTW) you mention.
My apologies - yes, in this way your glass heat sinks make absolute sense from both a practical and aesthetic (sp?) sense. But I'm not sure this has anything to do with illuminated logo's - pretty as they are. If the investment in such could in any way be used to improve the sound....
I'm still keeping my pot-plant-wrapping cable, come what may.
Jonathan
'The best way for Naim to go with their casing would be to have acrylic cases (a la DNM) with glass heatsinks. Not for looks, but for sound. Non-metallic casing prevents re-radiation back onto the circuit board.'
Naim R & D do extensive research on every part of the products they produce and the interaction of ALL the components in those products. So the best way for Naim to go is to use the vast experience of Roy George and his R & D team. Full Stop.
'not a terrible success with hard core Naimies'
Vuk, who are ALL these people you speak for? I don't care if I count in your book as one of these, but I do care if you suggest that I don't like the 5 Series which in MY view (and by all accounts the marketplace) is an audio and visual success.
Sorry about this guys but...
I thought was the season of goodwill and yet we get this type of negative thread on the Forum when the guys and gals at Salisbury continue to bust a gut to give us the best products and service around.
There seems to be too many Grinches here.
Come to Whoville.
Seasons Greetings to you all.
Regards
Geoff
[This message was edited by Geoff Cottle on MONDAY 18 December 2000 at 13:51.]
Ideally the kit would be as attractive as the sound it produces.
Unfortunately, appearance seems to confuse the issue.
Most people have, by necessity, to have the hi-fi in plain view. So if it looks good and sounds good too then that is a real result.
If you like the sound but do not like the looks then hide the kit!
cheers
Nigel
I did not mean to speak for anyone; I was merely referring to the results of the survey, which at the time showed a clear majority did not favour the new design. Seems it's just a slim majority at the moment. As for upsetting Naim, companies typically pay tens of thousands of dollars for market research like this (and yes, often the questionnaire/sampling techniques are not much better than what we've got here), so they are probably viewing it as a x-mas present, if anything.
Vuk.
quote:
The best way for Naim to go with their casing would be to have acrylic cases (a la DNM) with glass heatsinks. Not for looks, but for sound. Non-metallic casing prevents re-radiation back onto the circuit board.
What about external interference?
The acrylic case will also let any stray RF / electromagnetic fields IN to the sensitive low level circuitry, not a recipe for consistent clean sound.
As for glass heatsinks I'm not sure what planet DNM inhabit, but the primary purposes of a heatsink is to cool the devices mounted to it. For this it needs to provide a thermal path to air (normally), i.e. it needs to be a good conductor of heat. Aluminium, Copper etc. will do this well, glass most certainly will not!
The non-metallic casing will also allow internal radiation from any component to reach any other component it is placed close to, again a recipe for inconsistent performance.
If there are specific areas of a circuit that can affect other areas the best solution is careful circuit layout and / or localised screening where necessary.
Andy.
Andrew L. Weekes
alweekes@audiophile.com
As far as the 'survey' is concerned, I don't see it as a valid poll, since there are over a 1000 members here and not everyone will even bother to voice a pro or anti view. I am not even sure how many Naim owners there are worldwide who are not even going to see this online?
I 'think' demand for the 5 series has actually been higher than expected...
PS Its about time you updated your site!
Regards Geoff
As I said originally, it is an extremely flawed poll and one that is probably representative only of the "hard core" Naimie type who is bothered enough by these things to vote. Whatever the "type" actually is, the poll is adequate enough for us to have an idea that, on average, this sort of person doesn't seem to like the new design.
Vuk.
I thought the 3 series was starting to look very dated.
But I actually thought the survey has very poor questions and it would be hard to draw any meaningful conclusions.
Anyway I'm sure Naim has done its market research, and as far as I am concerned I think the 5 series and the 500 looks better than the gear that own.
Dev.
Yes I have Mana, but I am not a complete tosser. I believe I have said, at least twice already, that the sampling limits who we can generalise the results to. Once again for everyone: according to this poorly structured poll, more that half the people HERE who bothered to vote, on average, don't seem to like the new design very much.
Vuk.
People on the forum are Naim enthousiasts who are more or less interested in everything Naim does. That makes us interesting for Naim and their design philosophy. Our view of the 5 series says the following to Naim:
1. great work on the 5 series, the design seems to reach a greater audience [more sales, prices go down for us? ;-)]. We like it for the sake of the company.
2. DON'T change the design of the other series!!! The classic look has too much emotional value for the present users, which are the most important to Naim (up till now?).
But this is, again, just my humble opinion.
Regards, Bas
quote:
Yes I have Mana, but I am not a complete tosser
Eh? Did anyone mention Mana? Might have been when I dropped off for my afternoon nap - it's quite hot in here.
Also:-
quote:
Is it "pick on Vuk week"?
Not as far as I'm aware - but it's an idea! 
Jonathan
I really do like the look of the 5 series and speaking for myself would welcome the style being spread across to the NAP 250, NAC 82, CDX etc.
My 28 year old son is seriously debating purchasing a 5 series amp and cd player whereas he would have previously dismissed Naim because of its understated appearance.
I suspect, but obviously cannot prove, that there were probably howls of protest when in 1980 something Naim dispensed with the chrome bumper models and brought in the modernised look which we now regard as classic.
Times change, as do trends and I for one feel that the new look is great. I agree that the new logo should be retained but perhaps some different material could be used.
For me......the new range still possesses the virtues that made me buy it Naim the first place, that is :-
a) Great sound
b) Great value for money
c) Longevity
d) Top quality build
e) Excellent after service for years on end
What more can one say.
Regards
Mick
I can tell all of you that the new look has a much higher WAF (wife acceptance factor) than the old style, and that does count for something.
Naim has to update the look of the hardware to keep up with cosmetic trends, at least somewhat. And they can't just keep on cranking out the same old gear; after all, where do "classic" designs come from? They only come from discontinued lines and designs.
Ultimately, it's the sound that matters, and the 5 series as a whole sounds better than the gear it replaces. So who really cares about the way it looks?
quote:
The build quality also impresses me more, as does the lack of ringing associated with old cases
Perhaps the ringing was there for a purpose ?
Allan
Regards, Bas
I think this post shows that the new look is a great success - and if someone in Naim follows this post they are pleased now.
I thought the new look make the "naimists" who are the majority in this forum angry (I guess you think so too).
At the moment, 1352 members entered this post - only 60 voted. The vote is a very simple act - so I guess 1000 members or so (some entered
more than once and I don't know how the system counts them) DON'T care about the new look.
Those who vote, 50% (at the moment) thinking that the new look is better than the older/good/stunning.
So to my opinion the new look is a success if we take this post as it counts.
How can people think the new look is a good one with its logo - that is a great mystery for me...
Arie
quote:
The old buttons look like something that's been pulled from a piece of test equipment, rather than an integral part of the product.
Yes, they give an impression of uncompromising quality, looks be damned, which has a certain style – although I absolutely apreciate your view too. I also rather liked the little chrome toggle switches from 32/62 days for the same(ish) reasons. I think the feel of a switch is also important, and althought the CD5 buttons are quite tactile, they don't have the precision of the square buttons used in the 3-series, and (I assume) also in 52, 82, 102, CDX, etc.
The 5-series is not so obviously hand-built, IMHO. This is either a plus or a minus, depending on your viewpoint. The case implies hugely better quality, but seems relatively quite complicated, and it doesn't have the elegant simplicity of the full-height aluminium sleeve / steel drawer casework. I always thought this was particularly brilliant because it allowed the use of self-tapping screws, which were needed anyway to hold the rubber feet on. This was great thinking, to my mind.
Best;
Mark
(I still don't like this
software very much)
I agree with your view that the 5 series does not look so hand-built.
I love the clever design of all of the older kit, and believe Naim acheived an excellent result from some simple (though very well implemented) engineering.
The cases for the slimline components are, at the end of the day, formed, painted pieces of alloy, with some labels stuck onto them. The end result achieves a solid, accessible, serviceable and good looking result that is greater than the sum of the basic starting components.
The previous switches are positive, reliable and not entirely unattractive, but the look of the new 5 series seems much more integrated.
I wonder whether, as an engineer, I find different aspects of the old and new designs appealing to those with other interests. I tend to appreciate what must be significant amounts of hard work and investment that goes into the end result of a Naim product.
I think many engineers can find clever, well implemented design appealing just for it's own sake, irrespective of whether the final aesthetics are to our taste. In regard to the 5 series I like both aspects of it's design and so it's doubly appealing to me as a result - factor in sound quality and I think it's a winner!
I also believe that many of the opinions expressed here are from those already familiar with Naim, it's products and it's previous styling. I feel certain that if one surveyed members of the general population, who were not already 'converts' then the views expressed would be quite different, IMHO.
The final measure of all of this will be in the sales figures, and it would appear that the signs are looking good so far.
Andy.
Andrew L. Weekes
alweekes@audiophile.com
The evolution of casework for hi-fi electronics is fairly strange, in that in days of yore, a lot of amps (and tuners, etc.) seemed to be designed to be inserted in the user's own casework, which was frequently some sort of large cabinet, often with the turntable (bought without plinth) fitted in the top surface, and the electronics let into the front. In John Crabbes's book "HiFi in the Home" (I kid you not – I have a 1972 copy...) there is a whole page showing photographs of pre-manufactured cabinets, mostly made by Hamptstead High Fidelity, with blank tops and fronts specifically for this purpose. In order to facilitate fitting, the electronics often had thin, clangy steel cases with a heavy flanged front plate capable of supporting the whole weight in a similar fashion to the rack-mount cases still popular in both pro-audio and datacomms markets today. You could often buy veneered sleeves for your amps, etc., if you just going to put it on a shelf, but I suspect people generally didn't because of the extra cost.
Consequently, "good" stuff had to look as if the only important bit was the front panel, (with lots of knobs) and 25 years on a surprising number of manufacturers still have a flanged front plate, with thin enamelled steel for the rest of the box – withness Roksan Caspian, MusFid A3, etc.
When Naim electronics first appeared, they looked very strange initially, with no tone controls or filters, but they seemed to spawn a host of imitators such as Crimson, Nitek, Mission/Cyrus, etc. Suddenly the kudos was with how few knobs you could have, and preamps particularly could get smaller. With outboard PSUs, you didn't even need a power switch. I think Naim were really clever at this point, because everything they made used one of two sizes of case, allowing them to maximise both the consistency of the visuals across the range, and the economies of scale when buying casework.
The tactile qualities of switches, etc. may not seem important, but if you use a high qualtiy component, it will probably always feel good to use. Most customers' first encounter with an amp is in the shop, and if it looks well built, the impression is favourable. After seeing it, the next thing they will do is to press a button or turn a knob, and if the volume pot is rough (for example), they will immediately get a negative message about both the gear and manufacturer, requiring an even more impressive dem for a sale to result. Naturally it's also no good if the thing feels like a Bentley but sounds like a bag 'o shite.
With the 5 series, I think Naim have a acomplished a striking bit of original thinking. I have a CD5, and I'm over the moon with it – completely, with no reservations.
What intrigues me is this:
If Naim had developed the internals for the 5 series and put them in "standard" Naim cases, would fewer sales have resulted? I think we can assume that the sonic differences would have been small, if they existed. The new cases are very clever, and the (probably conderable) development / tooling costs could have been avoided by doing this. I would also be surpised if the material and build costs of the 5 series cases were much less (if at all) than the "standard" Naim case, so logically, can the intention be to expand the user base, on the assumption that a significant number of potential buyers are put off by the Naim look?
No doubt there exists somewhere a Mercedes forum, on which people are having identical discussions about the A-Class...
Best;
Mark
(I still don't like this
software very much)
quote:
I think we can assume that the sonic differences would have been small, if they existed.
I'm not so sure here, from my recent discussions the new cases provide greater mechanical rigidity and do not ring as the old ones can.
The boards are mounted on isolating pillars, and I believe even the connectors are compliantly mounted, amongst other things.
One thing I'm certain of is Naim will have designed all of these elements as a cohesive whole, and therefore I'm sure the case may have a significant effect, sonically.
Only Naim know the answer...
Andy.
Andrew L. Weekes
alweekes@audiophile.com
quote:
Relating to Andrew's previous quote of: 'The best way for Naim to go with their casing would be to have acrylic cases (a la DNM) with glass heatsinks. Not for looks, but for sound. Non-metallic casing prevents re-radiation back onto the circuit board.'Naim R & D do extensive research on every part of the products they produce and the interaction of ALL the components in those products. So the best way for Naim to go is to use the vast experience of Roy George and his R & D team. Full Stop.
Full Stop? Don't discount the potential of this forum - and I'm not going to claim any IPR on using Pyrex heatsinks.
I thought you would appreciate the sharing of constructive ideas - particularly if it would lead to more products for you to photograph on Naim's behalf?
Andrew L. Weekes said:
quote:
What about external interference?The acrylic case will also let any stray RF / electromagnetic fields IN to the sensitive low level circuitry, not a recipe for consistent clean sound.
As for glass heatsinks I'm not sure what planet DNM inhabit, but the primary purposes of a heatsink is to cool the devices mounted to it. For this it needs to provide a thermal path to air (normally), i.e. it needs to be a good conductor of heat. Aluminium, Copper etc. will do this well, glass most certainly will not!
It is true that low level EMI would find it easier to enter such circuitry if non-metallic casing is used. However, AC signals will generate EM coupling to external conductive units.
The path loss between the circuit board and the casing is almost 0dB, although , in favour of metallic cases, the cross coupling may be significantly less (due to the electrical dimensions of the casing)... but...
Take the example of a pre-amp, higher voltage AC signals at the output stage that *could* be re-radiated from the casing and back to the input to the MC - generating closed loop *positive* feedback on a low but possibly subjectively noticable scale.
Also, joints made from disimilar materials can re-radiate 3rd harmonic EM - see "On Fluctuations During Nonlinear Scattering of Radio Waves by Metallic Objects" J. Comm. Tech. and Elec. 39 (12). 1995. pp17-18.
BTW, DNM do not use glass heatsinks - only aluminium oxide spacers. Pyrex is a reasonable enough conductor of heat, any deficiencies can be offset by inceasing the exposed surface area.
Just some constructive thoughts, that people may or may not wish to take advantage of. I might, when I get around to it.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;
I have not actually seen the 5-series in real life, but I understand that when you do, it