mana or wooden table - or why Naim don't use Mana?

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except when I once listened to the master tape of Sgt. Pepper in studio 2 at Abbey Road, ie. where it was recorded

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You must tell about this experience of yours with as many details as you can.

Waiting to hear it from you,

Arie

As an almost new Naimie (or phobe ;-)) I'm already thinking about a rack or an other piece of furniture to place the Naim equipment on/in. Reading all those terrific experiences with Mana it almost seems mandatory to place your Naim system in one.

The thing I don't understand is reducing vibrations with spikes, cones or any other solid connection or devices that most racks are based on. A spike or cone can only change vibrations at best, not absorb or prevent them IMHO. It's just physically impossible. By its construction alone (high pressure -point) a spike or cone like thing or construction is just about the perfect conductor for vibrations either from the component out or vice versa.

Don't misunderstand me, I know how big the differences with racks, shelves, cones, spikes etc. can be!! It's just that I think these devices merely CHANGE (or lower at best) resonances. Not prevent or eliminate them. These changes do alter the sound of a system which can be an improvement as seems to be the case with Mana & Naim.

Talking about a components 'true voice' (whatever that me be) can only be heard when removing all vibration/resonance which is not easily done. I've had a Dutch acoustic specialist in high-end audio reproduction (he's even supposed to be the only graduated specialist in this particular field in Europe) make a complete acoustic report of my living & listening room. A full day of measurements with scary looking equipment. Frequency response of the room, reflections (and their frequencies and time), vibrations, everything. Expensive :-( but very, very interesting!

Among a lot of other things I learned that even my 20 X 40 ft. 10" thick concrete floor is resonating between 3 and 15 Hz at a normal listing level! :-O

Of course anybody could say "just put everything in a Mana rack and it sounds best and I don't care about the rest" and he or she would probably be right but a it's a very interesting topic nonetheless!

Richard.

I suspect for a long time that the people of the leading stereo equipment manufacturers know many things of sound spreading in living rooms which
they don't talk about or explain.

I think they don't do it because of the competition and the fact that there are many manufacturers who are fightuing on a specific customers group - a group of people who want to buy expensive stereo equipment and have quite many manufacturers to choose from.

As I believe so, I stoped asking "how this thing works" because I think you don't get a "real" answer.
I'm telling you this because you are questioning the "spikes affect" - but although you don't understand how does it work the fact is that it works ! You can find the same with many other questions about sound dealing with "how it works ?" but the fact will be that it works althogh nobody tells you exectly HOW it does so .

The second point is that I think you don't have to question your room acoustic parameters because of the same reason - the stero equipment manufacturers (I'm always talking about the leaders) take in mind that you will hear the system in an average living room and the goal for them is to give you best results in such a room. So I'm not sure that if you try to improve your living room acoustic - you may degrade sound quality instead of improve it.

Arie

If you’re thinking about getting a rack for your Naim gear, check out www.finite-elemente.de. I got one of their “Pagode” racks about a year ago, just after I bought my first decent system comprising a 3.5/Flatcap, a Nait 3 and Credos. Every upgrade since then has found its way onto that rack, so I can’t really say what my current system would sound like on a different type of support, but even with the slimline stuff the effect was clearly audible and worth the investment if you consider that (IMO) the rack looks pretty good (I like the functional appeal). The individual wooden shelf frames are suspended by horizontal spikes that you unscrew out of the frame until they sit tight in two vertical aluminium profiles. On the shelf frame you then rest a wooden shelf element, either on 3M rubber feet or, if you dish out a bit more money, on spikes. The base of the rack again rests on spikes, so you can have your gear removed from the floor by three degrees of spiking.

I can’t imagine that the physics of the spike phenomenon are very difficult to explain – not that I would know, but I suppose even if the weight exerted on the floor remains the same, it is more difficult for vibration (particularly low frequencies) to pass through a small area of contact.

Arie,

Some living rooms are less living-roomy than others. My best mate and I have managed to upgrade to exactly the same system within the last year (our girlfriends think it’s a competition). When I listen to music at his place, it still sounds much better in many respects, the reason being that he has a wooden floor, a couple of pieces of heavy furniture and a wooden shelf with about 1000 books, and plants, while I have a laminate floor, no furniture apart from 2 sofas, a token shelf that holds next to nothing (I used to have some books but I lost them, honest!), and no plants (I somehow find them strange in a room). Having experienced such a difference I am adamant that the benefit of working on your room acoustics at an early stage can by far outweigh an expensive upgrade.

Thomas

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The thing I don't understand is reducing vibrations with spikes, cones....

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Check out this URL for one explanation: http://www.uhfmag.com/Features/Feature.html

The basic concept is mechanical impedance. The spikes present a large impedance mismatch to transmission of vibrations. This is analogous in concept, but opposite in intent,to what Naim does with interconnects. Hence, DIN for line level and BNC for phono present the lowest impedance mismatch and the best signal transmission

John Schmidt
"95% of everything is crud" - Theodore Sturgeon

I understand that Naim keep a Mana table (in addition to a couple of others) in their testing room.

Vuk.

Richard - Base should have their website up and running very shortly and I suggest you try their cabinet before you buy a RACK - so mediaeval sounding that word -
totally subjective of course like all things hifidelity but it certainly tamed my awful room acoustics.

Regards Pee air - Base resonance controlled cabinet owner and proud of it!

The FACE of Naim and the place WHERE THEY are choosing to let "people from all over the world to listen to their equipment" - is the listening room where it seems there sre no Mana tables.

BTW, I heard that there is an argue about the question if wooden tables are better or not to the iron tables.

Arn't here members who checked this ?

Arie

Now, since the time of that response, several things have happened. Some other rack systems have appeared (Projekt, Hutter, Finite, maybe others.) More importantly, Mana has begun developing products beyond the racks that have been the core of their business. Mana now sells an amplifier and some interconnects. With a new management and much greater financial backing, Mana may soon be competing with Naim across almost the entire range of products. Obviously, Naim is not going to give publicity to a competitor - even if those products are indeed the best.

You must discount the installations of systems shown in Naim brochures: I remember a very nice, glossy brochure just a few years back that showed speakers on different walls, and no wires connecting any of the gear. It looked pretty, and it showed off the equipment well, but such a setup would never be found in the real world.

I've owned Target and Base. I thought Base, in my system, killed the music completely. When I brought the rack back to my local dealer, one of the guys working there looked up at me and said "dull and lifeless, right?" He knew. Hutter, Finite, and Projekt do not have distribution in the US yet, at least not such that one can readily test the racks.

I now own Mana. Now that it has been properly setup (I benefited from a visit from the US distributor) my system sounds far superior to anything I have ever had here. That opinion is shared by the local Naim dealer as well as the three other local Naim owners who have heard it.
I am using all Naim electronics feeding active ATC 50 speakers. The result is totally compelling and musical.

Racks obviously sound different depending upon the room, and the care in which they are installed. That said, I think you will find that most people who give the Mana racks a serious trial wind up keeping them.

The "Aurios" that Bob mentions have just come on the market. They sound interesting, and I would like to hear them. Equipping my entire system with them would cost more than Mana, however, and would still require the purchase of some sort of racks.

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Mana now sells an amplifier and some interconnects. With a new management and much greater financial backing, Mana may soon be competing with Naim across almost the entire range of products. Obviously, Naim is not going to give publicity to a competitor - even if those products are indeed the best.

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I didn't know it - I guess it may be a good explanation for Naim to not indroduce Mana.
I took the Idea that Naim are using wooden racks
out of Naim listening room as shown in Naim site under the title "look around" - "listening room" and not out of a Naim brochure.

There is a say in Hebrew - "if three people are telling you that you are drunk - go to sleep".
If so many members are thinking that Mana racks are good - I guess they are good and I will not argue it anymore unless I'll hear something else with my own ears.

Arie

Another saying springs to mind here: The blind leading the blind ... ;->

Mana racks have a very vocal following and seem at times to be the only choice, they are not!

I personnally preferred the more natural and frankly musical sound achieved through wooden and non-ferrous racks. At first I used tables from the Quadrasphire range and latterly with huge gains Hutter tables. As an example of the quality of sound achievable with Hutter a forum contributor with a top flight Naim system recently bought a set of Hutter racks after hearing them in my midrange system. I only mention this as an example of somebody who also preferred the presentation with Hutter to that with Mana.

With HiFi and HiFi tables, as with so many things, you have to make a value judgement based on your particular values.

Cheers

Jason

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Check out this URL for one explanation: http://www.uhfmag.com/Features/Feature.html

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Thanks John. I know this article. I don't think it's very accurate though. In fact, I think it's a load of crap although the author tries hard to give his article a kind of engineering ring to it. I won't go into why. That would take to much time and space.

How about this one; Our atmosphere is loaded with all kinds of signals, radiation etc. What about all that conducting metal that nearly all racks are made from acting like antennas surrounding our equipment??

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How about this one; Our atmosphere is loaded with all kinds of signals, radiation etc. What about all that conducting metal that nearly all racks are made from acting like antennas surrounding our equipment??

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And so what if the stand does act like an antenna if it is an antenna that isn't connected to anything!

Music is the answer.

At the beginig when I started my membership in Naim forum I thought that most of the members here are "uniformed" minds. I called it "to convince the conviced". Some members explained to me that there are "senior" (my words) members who had upgrated their systems in the most expensive
way and therefore those who want to upgrate are looking for the more experienced members advices.
So there is a true with your say about the "blind who leading the blind ... " but the blindness here is the fact (I'm included) that most of the members here are thinking only about Naim equipment. I think something like this goes with the Mana racks but like you say, "With HiFi and HiFi tables, as with so many things, you have to make a value judgement based on your particular values" and everyone shoud check by himself any advice he gets.
I don't know if there are several members here who are ready to say something "out of the lines"
and I feel that I have to relate this forum as a place for advices (for Naim of course) and nothing more. I will fall out of my chair if someone will ask how to upgrate a 72/140/...
and someone will answer him (for example) go for Meridian....

Arie

You are right that the forum is obviously very pro Naim but I for one also respect some other brands for there products (Sugden, Densen, Chord, DNM and Lavardin to name but 5) and would recommend them to somebodyt who didn't like the result with Naim boxes. For me its just that Naim offer the sound I am looking for at a reasonable price and a sensible upgrade path, hence I wouldn't recommend an upgrade outside of the naim amp range but I might recommend non-naim speakers (I use Shahinians)

Cheers

Jaso

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but the blindness here is the fact (I'm included) that most of the members here are thinking only about Naim equipment

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Arie.

I don't think that's true at all. My primary front end is not made by Naim, neither are my speakers. I once also owned a Micromega CD player and recommended it to people on the old forum who were looking for an inexpensive, tolerable digital source. I even drove for 3 hours (and then wandered around another 2 triying to find the shop) in order to try Blue Circle equipment, which a forum member said was worth checking out. I was extremely good. The there is Ross, who doesn't like Naim at all, except for the Armageddon.

Sure most of us prefer Naim amps over anything else, but it is the Naim forum and I don't think we've reached these decisions blindly. If you have any advice for us on gear we may have overlooked, please tell us about it.

Vuk.

In Israel the equipment is far more expensive then in the US and GB because of the taxation
(althoug now it is low) and because of the ratio of income/prices of equipment here.

Add to this the relatively small population and you see that the No of kinds of manufacturers is
lower then abroad.

For example, I heard here a system based on ThetaqMark Levinson/Wilson and its price was 85 k US $ - not just it is a double of the price in the US for the same price, it is VERY expensive compare to the avarrege income in Israel.

So in Israel I think Naim is the best - but I'm not sure and don't know if the same is abroad.

Arie

The basic problem I have and that I think most of us share is that we realise the importance of good stands/racks for all our kit and are often to prepared to pay a lot of money for them.

But.....

Where can one find a dealer to do a comparative demo between Mana and Hutter racks (say) without having to power down kit and transfer it to new stands etc...

I would love such a dem such that I can decide which sounds best to me - or even better to do such a dem at home on my kit in my environment!

Richard

I'd be very surprised if you could find any dealer who could do such a comparison.

I have to ask, though, why you're considering moving to Hutter? I mean, I'm sure Hutter is good, but I doubt it'd be worth switching - after all, Mana is IME about as good as it gets ALTHOUGH I haven't heard Hutter myself.

Is the Mana not working for you? Have you levelled and tuned everything properly? Just curious, and let me know if I can help...

John

The Mana under my LP12 is working - as I have no real issue and I ensure it is well tuned, but:

- could a Hutter be better?
- I would like to put my amps on a specialist rack, but whether a Mana or a Hutter or ??? I can't tell without a comparative test.

Richard

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that most of the members here are thinking only about Naim equipment

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Arie, why would you be surprised? It's a Naim forum, for heaven's sake. I'm mildly annoyed by the inference that closed minds are at work, and we'd never recommend something like Meridian. I've tried many things, and heard almost everthing, over 20+ years of trying to get some genuine musical satisfaction in my living room. To my ear, Naim is simply the most successful at this. So I'm not about to recommend Meridian because I don't believe it's nearly as good. If you want a Meridian recommendation, go to their forum, if they have one. There you would doubtless meet others who are as convinced as we are - except, in my estimation, they would be wrong.

Don

If we are all thinking that Naim is the best, we have to be AWARE to it. If this forum members are wishing to give and get advices for people who want to upgrate or buy Naim equipment - it is okay, but if we are talking about general subjects,we must consider and be aware to the simple fact that many of us are with the same opinion. A good example for this (IMO) is the dealer who tells us that 3 Nap-500 are better then one... did he check if for the same prices maybe two Mark Levinsons or something else is better ???

I think (and it is just a thought of mine) that the same thing goes here with the Mana racks. I guess the kind of table a person uses at home has
a link with the kind of floor - wooden, carpets,
tiles the kind of walls - I'm sure that if somone tells it is the best it means that it is the best at his home with his equipment and all the surrounded environment, but I'm not sure he can say to all the other members that this is the best racks only according to his own experience.

Vuk,

I thoght your primary system starts with a Cdx on a Mana rack ?

Arie

I got my Hutter from Phonography in Ringwood. Give them a call on 01425461230, they might give you some helps.

cheers
wan-chun