The end for middle lane hoggers?

"Magnificent."

That's an understatement!

Mr Tibbs

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and nearly all the traffic lights are green

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Surely at least half of the lights at every road junction must be on red!

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In the small hours on a camera-enforced 30 mph limit road the same problem occurs. There are no hazards

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'Hazard' does not suggest danger. A parked car, a bend, brow of a hill, oncoming vehicle are all potential hazards.
Where are you driving at any time of the day where you travel for mile upon mile at 30 mph without encountering any of these?
I maintain driving in a built up area at any time of the day at 30 mph requires more concentration on your environment than driving on an empty motorway at 90 mph.

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on the near-empty ones in the small hours I'm constantly overtaking the occasional lorry or slow-moving car and as such I have to regularly check my mirrors, indicate, and change lanes.

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Indicating when there is no one behind to benefit is lazy driving as it suggests you aren't considering whether there is a need to indicate, you just do it out of habit. If you feel a need to indicate to the vehicle being overtaken, you are leaving your overtake too late. If there is a need for you to indicate every time you pull out, I would suggest the motorway is nowhere near as empty as you suggest.

Ade

[This message was edited by Ade Archer on Sat 16 October 2004 at 15:18.]

[This message was edited by Ade Archer on Sat 16 October 2004 at 15:24.]

[This message was edited by Ade Archer on Sat 16 October 2004 at 15:25.]

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The whole point of speed restrictions in certain areas is that you can't predict what's coming.

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and the whole problem with them is that it stops people from thinking for themselves. There are plenty of roads around here that have 30mph limits but should really only be 20mph during the day due to parked cars or pedestrians but it seems that most of the driving population believe in driving to the limit and insist on driving them at 30mph. It amazes me that I've only seen one head-on accident as a result. By the same token exactly the same roads at night are empty of parked cars (commuter traffic) and pedestrians and due to their now wider nature and much better visibility would be perfectly safe at 40mph.

John
Quite true

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Originally posted by Ade Archer:
Indicating when there is no one behind to benefit is lazy driving as it suggests you aren't considering whether there is a need to indicate, you just do it out of habit. If you feel a need to indicate to the vehicle being overtaken, you are leaving your overtake too late. If there is a need for you to indicate every time you pull out, I would suggest the motorway is nowhere near as empty as you suggest.

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If you are changing lanes - you need to indicate. It's the law. This is regardless of whether you "think" there is someone behind you or not.

Ade, I suggest you really re-consider your thinking if this is the way you drive. What makes you think you know exactly where everyone is and what they'll do on the road? Think you're the only one on the road? Or that you know best? Or you're a good driver?

J

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If you are changing lanes - you need to indicate. It's the law. This is regardless of whether you "think" there is someone behind you or not

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It really would be adviseable to know your facts before posting drivel like that above.
Let me quote exactly from 'Roadcraft The Police Drivers' Manual'

"When conditions are suitable to overtake the course is selected to pass with plenty of room bearing in mind that the higher the speed the greater the margin required for safety. A glance in the mirrors will be necesary TO SEE IF A SIGNAL NEED BE GIVEN BEFORE MOVING OUT (System of Car Control, Feature One). If already on course to pass, no signal will be given. At Feature Two the mirrors will be checked again but a signal would not be needed nor would speed be adjusted."

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What makes you think you know exactly where everyone is and what they'll do on the road

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I know where everyone is as a result of observation.

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Think you're the only one on the road?

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No, but that does not mean you indicate in every circumstance. It is not for your benefit but that of other road users. As I said, indicating when not necessary suggests a lazy and thoughtless driving manner.

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Or you're a good driver?

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Yes, I do believe the above, and have the qualifications (in addition to, and to a much higher standard than, the IAM) to demonstrate it.
Ade

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difficult for the average motorist to understand and easy to ignore.

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Tom, if the average person can't work out a safe speed to drive at given the prevailing conditions - which they quite clearly can't - should they really be on the roads? Isn't your statement proof that our driving tests are way too lax?

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Isn't your statement proof that our driving tests are way too lax?

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Isn't this the only evidence that I would guess most here have of their ability to drive a car, but still feel it qualifies them to criticise others' ability.

Ade

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Isn't this the only evidence that I would guess most here have of their ability to drive a car, but still feel it qualifies them to criticise others' ability.

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Ade, so it would seem. My last bit of training was done with John Lyon - eye opening to say the least. Who have you done your extra training with?

John,
I don't wish to be specific as it gives away more about me than I wish to do to people who are, effectively, strangers, nice as most of you are.
I hold a Grade 1 in the relevant qualification and was automatically entitled to membership of the IAM as a result, as my training was far in excess of that required to pass IAM test.

Ade

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As an aside, is it worth doing the IAM training?

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If the only qualification you hold is the standard driving licence then it can only be a good thing to undertake more advanced training. The worst that can happen is you may identify areas of weakness in your current driving and work to improve them to make yourself a better driver.
It doesn't teach you to drive like Schumacher, and you are still subject to all speed limits throughout the training and test, but dependant on your current ability, it is likely you will learn enough to make yourself a better and safer driver, even if you don't agree with everything they say.

Ade

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As an aside, is it worth doing the IAM training?

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any form of extra training is worthwhile. There's not only IAM but also ROSPA amongst others. Another good thing to do is some skid pan/track training so that you can discover the limits of your car in a safe environment - sort of handy to know.
The only problem is that they may expose the "speed kills" brain washing expressed at every available opportunity on this forum for the bunkum it is.

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I hold a Grade 1 in the relevant qualification

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'nuff said. I won't tell if you won't.

Tom, I don't see anyone here arguing for no speed limits. What I would argue for is (a) far stricter training and (b) policing of DANGEROUS driving.
As I've said earlier there are many instances where it is extremely dangerous to drive at anything approaching the speed limit and yet there is zero enforcement of this and everyone seems mighty surprised when the inevitable happens.

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Originally posted by Ade Archer:

I know where everyone is as a result of observation.
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and what of those you can't see, the small child or animal behind the stationary vehicle, hedge etc. The speeding idiot down a side street. Not all hazards are immediately visble from a distance.

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You are using my quote out of context. My comment was in response to a claim that indicators are necessary in all circumstances, and particularly when travelling on the motorway. Through observation I am able to determine if a signal needs to be given. A signal is irrelevant to the above hazards which are purely down to observation, anticipation and if necessary, reaction, nothing to do with signalling.
What relevance is giving an indicator to the above situations? Do children only run out in front of cars which do not have their indiators on, or do cars only speed out of junctions into your path when you don't have your indicators on?
If I am overtaking another vehicle and another road user behind me would benefit, I indicate my intention.
If I am approaching, for example, a traffic island or junction and another road user would benefit, I indicate my intention
People who indicate whether it is necessary or not are clearly driving on auto-pilot.

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Judging by what everyone, including you, have expressed on this forum, I can't say I believe that anyone is a good driver

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Unfortunately I have more faith in my certificates of qualification than in your opinions.

Ade

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Originally posted by AlexG:
I will look into further training - if you wish to PT me with alternatives/additions to IAM and ROSPA, I would be grateful.

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many car clubs will offer courses - so that's always a good place to look. I've done a course with RideDrive which is basically along the roadcraft lines. Another course I've done was with John Lyon which aims to take you from ROSPA standard to "I wrote the book" standard for want of a better description.

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Ade and John, I'm sure you've taken many, many tests and feel rightly superior but haven't those tests taught you the dangers and that caution is necessary

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At what point exactly was I advocating driving in a reckless manner. I have previously admitted that on occasion I, like most other drivers, exceed the speed limit. Speed limits are fixed, and rightly so, but that does not mean that to exceed them is always dangerous. Safety is my first priority when driving, whatever my speed, and I always drive within my own limits, and do not have an inflated opinion of my limits. On plenty of occasions I have been overtaken by vehicles driven by people who obviously have a higher opinion of their abilities than I do of mine, who obviously have a sixth sense for danger, cars with the braking ability of an F1 car, and eyesight capable of seeing through thick fog, torrential rain etc

Ade

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As I say I'm not arguing against speed as the issue isn't that simple, just querying the attitudes.

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There are plenty of roads around here that have 30mph limits but should really only be 20mph during the day

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so this in your mind is a reckless attitude?

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Personnally I do think that the driving test has been too lax in the past, although it is improving

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err, no it's not. If you've never lost control of your car then you have a lot to learn.

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but doing the same road at 40 might be considered so

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Tom, I did say it "would be" safe.

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Originally posted by Ade Archer
It really would be adviseable to know your facts before posting drivel like that above.

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No need to be offensive. In many countries it's law to indicate when overtaking.

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Let me quote exactly from 'Roadcraft The Police Drivers' Manual'

"When conditions are suitable to overtake the course is selected to pass with plenty of room bearing in mind that the higher the speed the greater the margin required for safety. A glance in the mirrors will be necesary TO SEE IF A SIGNAL NEED BE GIVEN BEFORE MOVING OUT (System of Car Control, Feature One). If already on course to pass, no signal will be given. At Feature Two the mirrors will be checked again but a signal would not be needed nor would speed be adjusted."

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Well that's interesting...but I don't think that's actual law is it?

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I know where everyone is as a result of observation.

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Ever heard people say, you don't know what you don't know?

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No, but that does not mean you indicate in every circumstance. It is not for your benefit but that of other road users. As I said, indicating when not necessary suggests a lazy and thoughtless driving manner.

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Isn't there something to be said for consistency? Telling other road users interesting information about your intentions, whether you've observed them or not?

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Yes, I do believe the above, and have the qualifications (in addition to, and to a much higher standard than, the IAM) to demonstrate it.
Ade

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That's great, I wish more people on the roads did. Myself included.

I see what you're saying Ade, I just don't agree with it (I hope that's OK with you?). I don't think anyone, not even Mr and Mrs Schumacher, can be 100% observant on the road. Lazily indicating whilst changing lane might save my life one day.

J

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I know and I asked what was the best approach to such roads; a single low speed, a variable limit or none.

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well there is no simple answer and I think you're getting far too fixated on speed limits and ignoring the major accident causes such as inattention and poor observation.

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Surely at least half of the lights at every road junction must be on red!

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The above statement suggests you have no understanding whatsoever of how traffic lights actually work.

Whilst a few sets of lights work from timers, even they will still be biased to the main road. Thus they will be green for, say, 40 seconds to the main road, and maybe 10 or 20 seconds to the side road.

However, most traffic signals are interactive - working from sensors placed upon the lights themselves or pressure pads in the road. The lights will be set to green for the main road by default* and will only change if the sensor or pressure pad picks up an approaching vehicle from the side road.

During busy periods and/or when two main roads intersect, the timers kick in.

Travelling late at night along a main road it is therefore quite probable to hit every traffic light on green.

*Some local authorities with wankery anti-motoring agendas deliberately set the traffic light bias or green default to the side road to deliberately exacerbate congestion. Furthermore the changeover period when the lights are red in all directions is lengthened so that the queues grow longer.

Ken Livingston deliberately caused much congestion on inner-London roads in this way prior to the introduction of the congestion charge.

He obviously had no real regard for exhaust emmission levels in Central London, as I'm sure that even he knows that stationary traffic pollutes more than free-flowing traffic.

Regards,

Steve.

WRT Red Ken: The end always justifies the means

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on Sun 17 October 2004 at 6:15.]

Talking to yourself - the first sign of madness?

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Indicating when there is no one behind to benefit is lazy driving as it suggests you aren't considering whether there is a need to indicate, you just do it out of habit. If you feel a need to indicate to the vehicle being overtaken, you are leaving your overtake too late. If there is a need for you to indicate every time you pull out, I would suggest the motorway is nowhere near as empty as you suggest.

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Before I pull out I check my mirror. If there is nobody behind me then I pull out without indicating. Indicating when there is nobody to indicate to is like talking to yourself.

I don't indicate for the benefit of those in front of me for the reasons you've outlined above.

While being obliquely followed by Freddie Freelander I had to indicate every time I pulled out because he was always behind me. Also, my definition of "near-empty" is lanes two and three being unoccupied (or at least they should be unoccupied.)

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I hold a Grade 1 in the relevant qualification and was automatically entitled to membership of the IAM as a result, as my training was far in excess of that required to pass IAM test.

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From the guy who clearly doesn't understand how traffic signals work.

Regards,

Steve.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on Sun 17 October 2004 at 5:46.]

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No need to be offensive. In many countries it's law to indicate when overtaking.

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I don't think it is offensive to describe it as drivel when someone uses non-existent laws to preach to you about your actions.

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Well that's interesting...but I don't think that's actual law is it?

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No one said it was, unlike your quote

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Isn't there something to be said for consistency? Telling other road users interesting information about your intentions, whether you've observed them or not?

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I suggest you seriously consider advanced training to improve your observation skills if you genuinely do not know when there is a car following behind you or not.

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Lazily indicating whilst changing lane might save my life one day.

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Again, can you explain to me why you are not aware if there are vehicles behind you and feel a need to indicate 'just in case'. There really is a serious observation issue here.

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Surely at least half of the lights at every road junction must be on red!

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The above statement suggests you have no understanding whatsoever of how traffic lights actually work.

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Please enlighten me. If you approach a set of lights that are showing red, what are the opposing lights displaying?
You may travel on a route using primarily major roads, on which the lights are generally on green, but that does not change the fact that there must be at least as many sets of lights on red controlling the opposing traffic. You aren't the only one on the road, and not everyone wants to travel the same route as you

Also, if you are constantly having to move from the inside lane to the middle lane to overtake slower vehicles, it is quite acceptable to stay in the middle lane until you are clear of them.

Ade

[This message was edited by Ade Archer on Sun 17 October 2004 at 6:40.]

I'm refering to dropping off or picking up passengers out of my district and travelling along an arterial route back home along which most if not all of of the traffic lights will be green.

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Also, if you are constantly having to move from the inside lane to the middle lane to overtake slower vehicles, it is quite acceptable to stay in the middle lane until you are clear of them.

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Indeed - no argument there. On an empty road I don't count myself as one of the vehicles travelling, otherwise prevailing logic would tell me that there is never an empty road.

A tree falling in a forest with nobody around to witness it, and all that philosphical stuff, if you will...

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Again, can you explain to me why you are not aware if there are vehicles behind you and feel a need to indicate 'just in case'. There really is a serious observation issue here.

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Agreed. Auto-pilots/passengers-at-the-wheel issues again spring to mind...

Regards,

Steve.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on Sun 17 October 2004 at 7:17.]