The end for middle lane hoggers?

Hallo Tom,

the Highway Code is ok as a set of basic guidelines, but it has to be scaleable by novice drivers and those with little further interest. From memory, if you don't indicate at every turn during the DoT test, you will, as you say, fail.

At a more advanced level, the guidance is to indicate only when necessary. The purpose is to ensure you have considered the effect of the signal - how others will perceive and act upon it. At times it's safer and less confusing not to give a signal.

Another vote for advanced training (is that this thread ?). I'm not too enthusiastic about skid-pan/track training, but it's nice to have.

IAM or ROSPA is a good place to start, or even simply reading "Roadcraft" which is the basic foundation for the sinister but intruiging "class 1" of which we speak........

Taking driver training/passing an advanced test has the side benefit of making one a better, safer road user, but the main advantage is that it allows one to adopt a superior tone when addressing others.

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but the main advantage is that it allows one to adopt a superior tone when addressing others.

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How silly of us Brian, we should, of course, all be ashamed to hold any qualifications and should instead aspire to be as stupid as humanly possible.

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Originally posted by Ade Archer:
I don't think it is offensive to describe it as drivel when someone uses non-existent laws to preach to you about your actions.

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Ah! So because you "thought" I'd preached to you about your actions, then it was OK to be offensive

In many countries you will get a ticket for changing lanes without indicating. I stand by that. I'm really really really sorry it's that not the actual law in this country.

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No one said it was, unlike your quote

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You appear to have forgotten what you're written. Please allow me to re-quote you.

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It really would be adviseable to know your facts before posting drivel like that above.
Let me quote exactly from 'Roadcraft The Police Drivers' Manual'

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So the "facts", as you say, are in the 'Roadcraft The Police Drivers' Manual'. You used the quotation to back up your statement that changing lanes without indicating is not an offense. Yet in reality, it neither proves, or dis-proves your assertion. Interesting choice of reference material though.

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I suggest you seriously consider advanced training to improve your observation skills if you genuinely do not know when there is a car following behind you or not.

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I've never posted about my driving behaviour, yet to are very keen to reference it.

My point is/was that even with very acute observation skills you can miss things. I'm finding it very hard to believe that even with all the courses you've been on that you don't know this?

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Again, can you explain to me why you are not aware if there are vehicles behind you and feel a need to indicate 'just in case'. There really is a serious observation issue here.

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Again, my point please, not my driving behaviour. I say again, you cannot be 100% observant, 100% of the time.

I really don't see the problem in driving defensively. I am trying to open you to the possibility that someone who indicates, when you don't think "necessary", is actually not lazy but being considerate.

J

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Interesting choice of reference material though.

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Jay, before your ignorance bites you any harder, Roadcraft forms the basis of pretty much all advanced driving courses in this country.

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Originally posted by John Sheridan:

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Interesting choice of reference material though.

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Jay, before your ignorance bites you any harder, Roadcraft forms the basis of pretty much all advanced driving courses in this country.

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Ah

Thanks John.

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Ah

Thanks John.

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Roadcraft

perhaps a read will explain what Ade is saying a little more to your satisfaction.

Steven Toy said "Ken Livingston deliberately caused much congestion on inner-London roads in this way prior to the introduction of the congestion charge"

Ah the Great Traffic Light Conspiracy much trumpeted by the Evening Standard prior to the introduction of the Congestion Charge. Oddly they have yet to run the story where Ken flicks the big TfL switch marked "Congestion" to off and pronounces the Congestion Charge to be a staggering success.

Matthew

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Originally posted by John Sheridan:
perhaps a read will explain what Ade is saying a little more to your satisfaction.

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John

Thanks again, but I'm not sure it will.

As I said in my post. I'm really really really sorry if it's that not the actual law in this country. I'm cool with that, I stand corrected, it's all just super

J

PS. Can you be ticketed for failing to indicate when changing lanes?

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Originally posted by John Sheridan:

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but the main advantage is that it allows one to adopt a superior tone when addressing others.

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How silly of us Brian, we should, of course, all be ashamed to hold any qualifications and should instead aspire to be as stupid as humanly possible.

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It was just humour, John. Self-depricating. I passed my first IAM test about twenty years ago, but I thought I sounded "a bit up myself". (yeah I know, not for the first time)

Brian OReilly

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As I said in my post. I'm really really really sorry if it's that not the actual law in this country. I'm cool with that, I stand corrected, it's all just super

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Jay, the point is not that you should go around changing lanes without indicating in all circumstances. In traffic you're obviously giving a warning to other people of your intentions - and as most people who do bother to indicate in this country seem to think it a 'right to move' it rather loses its point. In a case where there is clearly nobody behind you (for the sake of argument, let's say you're on a motorway at night) then who exactly are you indicating to?

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It was just humour, John. Self-depricating.

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Brian, sorry for the sense of humour failure at this end.

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Originally posted by John Sheridan:

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As I said in my post. I'm really really really sorry if it's that not the actual law in this country. I'm cool with that, I stand corrected, it's all just super

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Jay, the point is not that you should go around changing lanes without indicating in all circumstances. In traffic you're obviously giving a warning to other people of your intentions - and as most people who do bother to indicate in this country seem to think it a 'right to move' it rather loses its point. In a case where there is clearly nobody behind you (for the sake of argument, let's say you're on a motorway at night) then who exactly are you indicating to?

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John

I just don't see the harm in indicating, even if you perceive other road users to get no benefit. In that off chance that you didn't see someone (I know, very rare) then at least someone behind, or even in front of you, knows where your car is going.

I certainly don't think it's lazy or thoughtless which is what Ade is asserting.

J

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The person you are overtaking? I confess I like to be told if a car following me is about to move position.

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if a person has driven up quickly behind you then you shouldn't exactly be surprised when they then proceed to overtake. If there is a chance that you may be about to overtake someone yourself then they WILL indicate because by their *observation* they have seen this possibility. If it's just overtaker and overtakee on the road then an advanced instructor will tell you it's lazy driving to indicate because you obviously haven't checked your mirrors and you haven't been properly observing what's going on around you.

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On normal roads cars don't whizz up and pass, they get stuck until the next available straight. At moments like that I like to be told whether there are other cars or no.

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well yes, but the roadcraft method of overtaking isn't that employed by most people. First you move across into the 'overtaking lane' to confirm 100% the road is clear for you to complete manoeuvre, only once you've confirmed it's clear do you then accelerate.

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Originally posted by John Sheridan:
then an advanced instructor will tell you it's lazy driving to indicate because you obviously haven't checked your mirrors and you haven't been properly observing what's going on around you.

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Ay? You can't be serious surely? I find it difficult to believe that an advanced instructor will tell you to assume someone is lazy because they have indicated to pass?

Surely assumption on the roads is the mother of all F*** Ups? "I assumed they were turning in. I assumed they were going straight ahead. Hang on, don't indicate, they might think I'm lazy"

J

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The person you are overtaking? I confess I like to be told if a car following me is about to move position.

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It might actually help you observe the road a bit better too

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First you move across into the 'overtaking lane' to confirm 100% the road is clear for you to complete manoeuvre, only once you've confirmed it's clear do you then accelerate.

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Roadcraft also asks you to take into accouunt the class of vehicle you are driving...

I have been trained to drive using roadcraft, and can tell y'all that the rules of overtaking are not applied in the vast majority of cases by the general motoring public.

Usual errors are:
attempting an overtake in a vehicle that is not powerful/adept/designed to perform the task you are asking it to do
driver not being experienced enough/trained enough...
not considering the road layout far enough in front of the vehicle to be overtaken to assess whether you can safely overtake and then pull back in...

etc

andy c!

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Ay? You can't be serious surely? I find it difficult to believe that an advanced instructor will tell you to assume someone is lazy because they have indicated to pass?

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yes, they will because it's not necessary IF you've already covered all the other points - and they know you've covered all the other points because you've been providing a running commentary. You really need to take some advanced instruction - or even just travel with someone doing a commentary - to see exactly how it works.

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and can tell y'all that the rules of overtaking are not applied in the vast majority of cases by the general motoring public.

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true, because most are happy to plod mindlessly along behind the twat that's out for a sunday jaunt at a constant 40mph.

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usual errors are

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the number 1 error is getting frustrated and then attempting to overtake on a blind crest or just before a blind corner.

wow two miracles:
someone who replied to one of my posts
someone who agreed with me



ta john

I don't think The Highway Code constitutes the law, but as a guide to stick to for the sake of 'doing it right' where's the harm in it? Yes, I've also been told not to indicate when there is no one to indicate to - so I don't. Instances of this are few and far between. If you drive around making split second decisions about when and when not to indicate, you'd probably feel more comfortable flying a spitfite. And if there's so much as one other road user in your vicinity you really should indicate IMO. Some people don't look where they're going, let alone where they've been - why risk it?

Just my 0.02 to chuck into the pissing contest.

Cheers

Harry

[soundbite]the only thing you can assume when you see a flashing indicator, is that the bulb works[/soundbite]

There is a radical school-of-thought, that says if indicators were not used, that there might be less accident as we would be forced to read/predict what other road users would do (no bmw driver jokes, I'm begging!). If you watch others, you will see indicators used to celebrate the completion of a lane change etc.

Less indicatin' more thinkin`

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Hang on a minute. You can tell that over taking rules are not applied because people "are happy to plod along behind" and not overtaking?

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ok, I know it was a stretch, but you can't apply any overtaking rules if you never overtake can you?

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and then you say that most errors are caused by frustration (which I agree is a major cause). presumably not by the happy plodders and the "twat" (what an aggressive term) drivng slowly (or cautiously).

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if someone maintains a constant 40mph regardless of the road or the prevailing speed limit (ie they keep on doing 40mph through towns) then they're not exactly driving safely, are they? Yet it seems that every time I go out on the road in rural England, Mr or Mrs 40mph is there in front of me (usually with a large queue of traffic behind them).

There's never a need to slow down to 15 mph and I don't know anyone to have done that before accelerating up to 70 on the straight.

It would depend on the bend but there aren't many bends where you have to drop below about 25 mph unless it's slippery/wet, or your tyres are shit.

Driving at 40 mph is lazy because it's the same speed as for most of the bends as on the straights, so no gear changing, no variation of pressure applied to the accelerator pedal, and no braking.

Middle-lane hogging is the same - no checking of mirrors, no lane changes, and no use of indicators if there is someone there to indicate to.

"Speed-kills" propaganda encourages lethargic, lazy and inattentive driving.


Regards,

Steve.

From Roadcraft:
"The system of car control is a system or drill, each feature of which is considered in sequence, by the driver at the approach to any hazard. It is the basis upon which the whole technique of good driving is built.

A hazard is anything which contains an element of actual or potential danger.

There are three main types:
a) physical features, such as a junction, roundabout, bend or hill crest;
b) those created by the position or movement of other road users; and
c) those created by variation in the road surface or weather conditions.

By definition every feature of the System is considered at the approach to any hazard. Only those applicable to the particular circumstances are put into operation but whichever features are selected they must always be in the correct sequence. It is only by constant practice that skill in the application of the System can be acquired.

Features Of The System

(1) COURSE - The driver, having seen the hazard, decides on the correct line of approach. He looks in his mirrors and if it is necessary to change position to obtain the correct course, he considers a deviation signal.

(2) MIRRORS, SIGNALS AND SPEED - The mirrors are again used and if the intention is to turn right or left at the hazard, consideration must be given to a deviation signal. Any reduction in speed for the hazard will be accomplished at this stage preceded by a slowing down signal if appropriate.

(3) GEAR - The correct gear is selected for the speed of the vehicle following application of the second feature.

(4) MIRRORS AND SIGNALS - It is essential to look in the mirrors again and to consider a signal to deviate, if not previously given, or to emphasise an existing deviation signal.

(5) HORN - sound the horn, if necessary

(6) ACCELERATION - The correct degree of acceleration is applied to leave the hazard safely.



There is clearly much emphasis on observation, and use of signals IF NECESSARY in the above. It requires more concentration to only give a signal if necessary, than to give one every time one approaches a 'hazard', and I guarantee if you only try this for a period of time, you will find you become far more aware of your environment.
There are clearly some here who agree with me, and others who don't, but at the end of the day I suppose it's no skin off my nose if you don't agree, and feel there is no room for improvement in your driving, so I won't go on.

Ade