Speakers: Mission Impossible ?

Bob: Lets see.... over the past two years I've been through Sonus Faber Concerto's, Epos 22's, Epos 30's, Vienna Acoustics Beethoven's, Totem Mani-2's, Soliloquy 5.0's(with S-10 sub), a couple of Rel subs and Sonus Faber Concertino's. I home demoed a set of Merlin TSM's as well.

Selecting speakers has got to be the hardest part of setting up a decent system. I can't say that any of the above speakers achieves anything close to perfection. Most of them can sound right some of the time with some music. But that's about it.

There only appears to be an indirect relationship to what you get for what you spend. The Solilquy's probably had the best sound of the bunch and they were the cheapest. I just couldn't get them to work with the Soliloquy or Rel subs so I gave up.

Right now I'm using the Totem Mani-2's on one system. They're pretty good speakers with Naim gear. Midrange is a little light. Bass is pretty good. The metal dome tweeter is also very good. But there is no mistaking them for a floor stander when it comes to scale.

I'm using the Epos 30's on my other system. They sound the best most of the time. When accompanied by poor recordings however they sound terrible. A lot of "in your face". There are a lot of poor recordings out there. The metal tweeters are just too much. The Epos 22's actually have a little better sound than the 30's they just don't go as low. Both of these speakers are nice and fast and the bass manages to keep up. Just don't try them with a sub; you end up with a lot of mud.

The Sonus Fabers Concerto's and Concertino's are magic. Very seductive, sweet, and very forgiving of poor recordings. But in the end the sound is colored and you move on.

The Merlin TSM's are incredibly fast. A real attention getter. No bass though.

I'm thinking about Spendor SP100's for my next move. They sounded a little too laid back at the dealer, but it was on a Krell front end. I've heard a lot of Naimophiles are nuts about them so I'll probably give them a try. I'm also going to check out some Proac 3.8's but I think they're going to be too big for my room.

The Vienna Acoutic Beethoven's are too laid back in a Naim system but sound real nice otherwise. I imagine Stereophile will give these an "A" or "B" rating, but for me they're history.

Buying speakers has easily been the hardest part of selecting stereo equipment for me. It's all trial and error. They never sound the same as they do at the dealer. It's also a pain as they are the heaviest and usually most expensive part of the system.

What drives me crazy is that there are so many good stand mounted monitors out there that sound great, but no bass. Seems like someone would have figured out by now how to fix this. Subs are definitely NOT the answer.

Sure have pissed away a lot of time and money in the process.

Guess I didn't answer your question, but if you find the answer let me know.

Arthur Bye

I'd definitely recommend a new pair of SBLs. You have to get a real "SBL Master" to set them up properly. Otherwise they just don't have the magic. I just set up a pair for a guy with a similar front end to yours (Lingo, Ittok, Archiv, Linto-not in the same class, but close) and they sounded fantastic! You know, Chris Koster of NANA lives close to you in CO, and maybe you could get in touch with him. You may even be able to fit the new woofers in your old SBLs, though I'm not sure if there are any other differences.

Hi Bob

While the 72 is a very good pre-amp, I would suggest you consider not the speaker, but a pre-amp upgrade. If funds permit, you could consider the 52, which will open up the sound so much more with the SBLs, and present a more meaty sound compared to the somewhat leaner-sounding 72.

For price performance ratios, you'll find SBLs representing excellent value compared to its bigger siblings, and the rest of the market at this price point, and that takes some serious beating. Only thing is, as Peter brought up : set-up for the SBLs is absolutely crucial - you would already know this as old knowledge, but it really matters for them in particular.

Good listening; the music's still groovin'.

Philip

naimniac for life

Philip wrote:

quote:

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While the 72 is a very good pre-amp, I would suggest you consider not the speaker, but a pre-amp upgrade.

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Hey Bob,

That's bad advice. And I don't mean "baad" as in good. You know that your 82-in-storage would be crap in this system. Best to hold on to it until I can scrape up the dough to take it off your hands.

Oh, and about other speakers to try, add Neat Petites to your short list. You might also want to try Neat Mystiques or Elites.

Joe

Arthur--
Thanks for listing your experience with so many speakers--you have really covered the waterfront ! I have actually heard the Sonus Fabers, the Totems, the Viennas, and the Soliloquys. None of them did it for me and I believe all require lots of space. The Epos 22's are interesting--can they go against a wall ?

Peter--
New SBLs are a consideration--and I know Chris Koster reasonably well and call him a friend. SBLs are not that hard to set up correctly, so I am confident mine are--they sound better in my new room than in my old, and I did the setup in the new room while Chris did it in the old. Oh--the SBLs I have do have the new woofers.

Philip--
I'm looking for speakers that will work with the electronics I have now--I have had every Naim preamp in my house, and as Joe Petrik points out I have an 82 sitting in its box. Ironically, the 82, with its superior control and grip sounds bass light through my Kans relative to the 72. Granted it is superior, but I prefer the 72 in the system as presently constituted.

Anyone have any other suggestions ? I find myself truly in speaker hell.

Cheers and happy holidays !

Bob @ Qwest

"Ride the Light !"

Bob,

I'd go with the new SBLs

The only other suggestions I could give are Royd Albions/Abbots, or even 2nd hand bariks as an interim before you are in a position to consider NBLs or DBLs.

Definitely try the new SBLs first.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

Bob,

Here's another suggestion: Neat Petites + Gravitas

If you want Kans with more bass, then the Neats will give you that.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

Bob:

The Epos 22's can't get much closer than 2 feet from the wall without messing up the bass. They have a rear firing reflex port.

They're also out of production now and hard to find. I got my set from Audio Advisor at 1/2 off retail. I think when Michael Creek bought out Epos and came out with a new lineup they decided to unload the 22's. The Epos 30's are similarly discounted right now, but have not been discontinued.

Both are not easy to find used in the US

Arthur Bye

Hi Bob
Merry xmas and a naimtastic 2001
I bought my pair of Kans back in 1987 and they have lived with me through thick and thin. They started life with a Rega P3 / Nait1 and are currently fed by LP12/Akito/K9/Circus/Sound Org and 82/supercap/250.

I have learned a few things over the years but two of the most important are that:

1.) Kans just get better and better when you improve the source and amplification.

2.) Kans can be *very* difficult to get working properly - if the interconnects, mains supply, stands and very importantly - room accoustics are not right, they will never sound at their best. I have a couple of mates with big box speakers, one Linn and one Naim who bow to their supremacy - It usually requires a good bottle of port for them to let down their guard though.

I assume that since you have lived (and loved) with them for so long now, you will have tweaked and fiddled quite a lot. If not, might I suggest a separate mains supply and some strategically placed sound damping on the walls. The wall they are up against is the most important - I have a picture rail in my listening room and I experimented by hanging shirts around the room until I got the damping that was needed. The main spot is between the speakers but well up above them and at least a foot sideways gap. I have since replaced shirts with a home made accoustic panel. Kans will never generate low frquencies that cause incontinence but mine are capable of vibrating flesh at fairly low levels (generally the loosest bits).

For what it's worth, when I upgraded to the 82/sc from a 42.5 I ended up rediscovering my record collection and I have no intention of parting with my Kans until I hear them driven by a 52/500. Keep with them - even if the rest of the forum think I'm talking nonsense and you decide to get something else, *don't sell them* - you will regret it.

My second post but much lurking
Steve

All--

Thank you all for replying with experiences and suggestions. I reinstalled the SBLs last night and they represent a definite advance on the Kans in a lot of areas--much cleaner, clearer, more extended, etc. If they had just a little more of the Kans excitement they would be perfect (for me). I've removed some of the wall hangings; this helps.

I tried Linn Ninkas yesterday while fitting the Prefix to the LP12. Great speaker--best I have heard from Linn in a long time. However, going home to the SBLs made me realize how much better the SBLs are in the most fundamental area: communicating notes and the whole of the music. I still have yet to hear a speaker better in these areas other than DBLs.

To make a long story short, Chris Koster is going to visit shortly to weave his magic. At his suggestion I will be replacing the gasket kit and the passive crossovers. I've also ordered a CDX to replace the CDI and tuned the LP12 to within an inch of its life. I'll keep you all posted.

Thanks again for sharing your experiences and suggestions--please keep them coming !

Peace and happy holidays to everyone !

Cheers,

Bob @ Qwest

Ride the Light !