Any Historians Out There ?

I think the Brits can claim to the dubious honour of inventing/first using concentration camps in South Africa

Derek

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Yes and it saved quite a few English lives.

Regards

Mick

It killed a LOT of Afrikaaners though,mainly women and children. But the end always justifies the means eh?
BF Zeppelins and Gothas bombed London and other cities in WW1. Not sure wether we had the where withall to respond or even start it.

Howard

I summise then that nobody's the wiser than me then; which is suprising !!!


Fritz Von well that's allright then innit

mick parry

you are a prick

No secret and true.

Bob

quote:

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Originally posted by justiceklopper:
mick parry

you are a prick

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You shouldn't get personal now, Mikey was there & he knows best, and besides dolphin's don't lie !!!

Obviously I'll have to check this guys point more deeply as there's a bottle of malt at stake, innit.
Fritz Von Faber AG of Switzerland helped too I hear, isn't that right Mikey ?

Justiceklopper

You are a sanctimonious little turd.

Your GreatGrandparents almost certainly approved of what was being done back in those days and like the ineffective little tosser you are, you criticise the actions taken by our ancestors even though you have indirectly benefitted from the wealth that the Empire generated.

The values of those days are not the same as we have today and to sit there behind your pc with a false name slagging them off, demonstrates what a worthless piece of scum you are.

You induce me to vomit.

What bullshit. I've been guilty of an insulting post myself so that proves I'm no angel. But a slanging match like this is pathetic. Of course, saying so will put me in line for some insults or suggestions that my post "serves only to illustrate my newness to the board" etc but come on guys?

Justiceklopper, you should apologise to Mick.

Mick, you should apologise to Justiceklopper.

Flame wars are pathetic. Fritz probably doesn't give a toss but I do.

Deane

The problem for a newcomer like myself is whether they are "fair dinkum' or not comments. Would you please use appropiate icons in future.
Yours in a cobberly fahion, Lomo

quote:

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Originally posted by Lomo:
The problem for a newcomer like myself is whether they are "fair dinkum' or not comments. Would you please use appropiate icons in future.
Yours in a cobberly fahion, Lomo

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I personally thoink like Deanne that they are pathetic personal weak attacks that have obviously been fuelled by the subject matter, the truth of which is yet to be determined, but I suspect because it's actually been raised by me and challenges their little perceptions of a poifick world, any kind of silly rebuke of honest scientific/historic debate is deemed untennable (That being their aim I fear), maybe if a renouned respected academic in the field brought up the question silence would also prevail ?

Fritz Von Don't give a momkeys toss Deanne you're right, as SAD as it is, I wonder what they learn in schools today ?

Just as an aftermath, I mean afterthought cum point-straightener, I personally
make no comments whatsover upon the possible facts of this queery; otherwise I
wouldn't to date have been involved with the organisations that I have been in
the past (Military etc), nor live in this Great City of Berlin that I now live in and love and call home, innit.

Fritz Von History cannie be changed only interpreted differently to suits ones
own personal agenda


Learning by DoingLearning by Doing

Fritz me old bean,

Your opening post on this here thread, whilst another interesting educational titbit for us to ponder over this windswept weekend, is admittedly not as, shall we say, ground-breaking as your usual efforts, given that it was us wot dunnit first viz-a-vis concentration camps in the Boer War wassitnot? (As Derek Wright intimated above)

Justiceklopper and Mick,

As Deane correctly implied.....now now children

Cheers,

JR

Jon

The British Empire was built by soldiers risking their lives and it is dead easy for someone like justiceklocker to criticise it in a sneering sort of way.

The concentration camps saved British soldiers lives and that is why they were built. It is also worth mentioning that this was widely approved by the British public of the time.

Ninety year later, times and attitudes have changed and rightly so. It is plainly offensive for someone like justiceklocker to make insinuations over what happened in those days.

I am sorry but people like him have benefitted from the Empire. It generated tremendous wealth and we are still living off the proceeds of it, even today. It is obviously out of place in todays world but the inescapable fact is that the UK, France and Belgium grew very wealthy on colonisation.

The Empire cost the lives of our forefathers and he has cheapened that. The fact he called me a prick is irrelevant, what he did was insult the actions and sacrifices of men who were regarded as heroes in their day.

I just hope he feels bloody ashamed of himself.

Regards

Mick

Mick,

Point taken but like you say, "times and attitudes change" and whereas it might be argued that it was more 'acceptable' to refer to the British Empire once upon a time, I think that nowadays it is less so. Proud of my country though I am, I have to accept that not everything we have done has been shown by history to be squeaky clean - witness the mass bombings of German cities in WW2 - we were no better than the Germans bombing UK cities in this respect. We (the British) knew it would cost thousands of lives but the justification was, and always has been, that this was war.

That something may have been "widely approved by the British public of the time" doesn't necessarily make it right now. We do need to acknowledge this, just as we also need to acknowledge that Britain no longer enjoys an Empire as it once did.

JR

Jon

The point being that at the time, those actions were considered proper because they saved the lives of Englishmen who were fighting for their country.

It is inevitable that as time passes, the concept of colonisation will be criticised but to make the inference that justiceklopper did is plain hypocritical.

In effect he said......sod the English soldiers and I find that sickening.

Regards

Mick

Now this is a very relevant debate...
Does the end justify the means and.... will it all ways take 50 years[give or take]after the event, to come to a reckoning. It only takes 5 minutes for justification.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mick Parry:
In effect he said......sod the English soldiers and I find that sickening.

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Mick,

Nowadays when anyone mentions concentration camps, few view them in any kind of 'favourable' light. I am a Jew so naturally they evoke a particularly unpleasant response in my head. For me they are nothing more than a systematic genocidal tool, used by Eichmann for no other reason than that he loathed the Jews in every possible respect, and he thought this would be the most effective way to please Hitler. (Hitler for his part cared only that the Jews were annihilated, the methods were irrelevant.)

More recent history suggests, I think, that concentration camps were used by Saddam Hussein as yet another means to enforce his rule on an already stricken country.

Under those circumstances, and in this day and age, I can well understand how jarring it must be to find someone post anything which smacks of any kind of justification for their use.

Justiceklopper's insult was uncalled for, I agree, but consider the possibility that it was but a knee-jerk reaction to the above.

JR

quote:

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Originally posted by Mick Parry:
In effect he said......sod the English soldiers and I find that sickening.

---

Mick

I've re-read this whole thread and I cannot find anything that justiceklopper has said other than calling you a prick.

Whilst this could easily be considered unacceptable in an internet forum, are you not drawing some rather tenuous inferences from it?

You insulted him (her) back. The initial insult was in response to your comment "Yes and it saved quite a few English lives". A simplistic nonsense that implicitely values "english" lives above those of others. Offensive if not then, surely now and for all time to come.
In any case distinctly insulting to the Scots amongst others.

If you think that someone calling you a prick constitutes them "criticise(-ing) the actions taken by our ancestors even though you (they) have indirectly benefitted from the wealth that the Empire generated." then you have a rather elevated opinion of yourself frankly.

No-one can possibly say what this country would be like now if it had not followed an imperialistic course in the past.
Although it can be argued we all owe a debt of thanks to our ancestors who fought for what they believed in, it does not belittle their actions, or our opinions of them, if we subsequently discover and acknowledge that what they believed in was offensive, discriminatory, racist, supremacist bollocks.

Calling you a prick, however, constitutes nothing other than that.

Wow - I make a simple statement at 2:46 on Saturday and by Sunday midday we have a web based world war raging (well not quite) <g>

Derek

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Sorry Derek - I didn't start it.....honest guv!

JR

PS: Though I might have mentioned your name in dispatches so to speak.....

Jon / Rod

I think we will end up going in circles here.

Justiceklopper seems to be of the opinion that saving English lives was no justification for building concentration camps. Therefore he would have preferred the camps not to have been built but with the result that a lot more English soldiers would have been killed.

I suspect his attitude is "they should not have been out there invading Africa in the first place, so sod them"

My reply is that they did what their country expected of them which was the predominant culture in those days.

He just needs to think before he opens his mouth. It is very easy to pass comment on the role of the Empire but in those days, it dictated British life.

I started school in 1953 and the wall held a massive map of the world, one quarter of which was pink and we were told, one day you will make half of that map pink. In other words, the presure was still on to increase the power of the empire and that was being drummed in to 5 year old kids. That was done, I may add, with the approval of society in general who are people just like us.

To suggest anything else was almost treason, and that was only 50 years ago.

By 1958, the famous winds of change was happening but it does not detract that a lot of men lost thier lives and to belittle that is wrong.
Regards

Mick

quote:

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Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Justiceklopper seems to be of the opinion that saving English lives was no justification for building concentration camps. Therefore he would have preferred the camps not to have been built but with the result that a lot more English soldiers would have been killed.

I suspect his attitude is "they should not have been out there invading Africa in the first place, so sod them"

My reply is that they did what their country expected of them which was the predominant culture in those days.

He just needs to think before he opens his mouth. It is very easy to pass comment on the role of the Empire but in those days, it dictated British life.

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And all this can be deduced from the six-word statement: "mick parry you are a prick", can it?

so why else would he have said it.

I was a prick for saying or believing that it saved English lives.

Regards

Mick

HI,
On a recent trip to Berlin my wife and I started the simple question of why the then german nation would embark on the mass slaughter of the jewish race (I was never and good at history at shcool). The general consensus was that it was down to the allies over penalising and restricting the genman nation after the 1st world war, and also the fact that the Jewish people were generally wealthy.

Whilst Mick may have a point, he has a far more valid one in that values of generations do change, and that it is good to see that such mass slaughter is being condoned - all be it from the comfort of our western arm chair in our centrally heated living room!

Oh, my point re the jews - its all down to money - its remarkable what some would do for dosh!

andy c!