Prince Harry

Steve,

Are you trying to atone for them or be ironic?

The whole Royal business is pretty indefensible; just make sure that there's a sound alternative before we abolish the monarchy. We don't want to do the usual New Labour trick of abolishing things without a suitable replacement... not that the monarchy needs much replacing.

Cheers,

Earwicker

quote:

---

Originally posted by 7V:

quote:

---

There should be no law(in this country)preventing the lampooning of religion or its adherents.

---

Absolutely. Er, I'll lampoon Buddhism, you lampoon Islam.

Steve M

---

And I'll lampoon them all, if that's okay with you?

E

quote:

---

Originally posted by reductionist:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurie Saunders:

quote:

---

There should be no law(in this country)preventing the lampooning of religion or its adherents.

---

here here...get rid of Blasphemy laws

Laurie S

---

And the anti-racism ones?

>Will add something funny when I think of it.<

---

Racism is different in that people should not be treated inequitably simply by virtue of an accident of birth - you are born into a racial group and that's that.

Religion is essentially (leaving aside cultural conditioning for the moment) a question of choosing to believe in a certain deity or philosophy. In some ways it is no different to fervently supporting a football team.

cheers

Nigel

quote:

---

Originally posted by Earwicker:
Are you trying to atone for them or be ironic?

The whole Royal business is pretty indefensible; just make sure that there's a sound alternative before we abolish the monarchy. We don't want to do the usual New Labour trick of abolishing things without a suitable replacement... not that the monarchy needs much replacing.

---

Actually, I quite like the system as it is.

Your point about abolishing things without first having a suitable replacement is absolutely spot on. It's hardly revolutionary though. Marxism teaches that society must be transformed swiftly, intrepidly and fundamentally, if the transformation is not to be overturned by counter-revolution.

So, if they're going to go, we'll have to kill them (like the Tsar and his family). There'd be no going back then. I suppose we could start with Harry.

Steve M

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
Racism is different in that people should not be treated inequitably simply by virtue of an accident of birth - you are born into a racial group and that's that.

Religion is essentially (leaving aside cultural conditioning for the moment) a question of choosing to believe in a certain deity or philosophy. In some ways it is no different to fervently supporting a football team.

---

Except for Judaism, of course. Sigh. It doesn't proselytize so it's very difficult to get into and impossible to get out of.

Steve M

quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
Racism is different in that people should not be treated inequitably simply by virtue of an accident of birth - you are born into a racial group and that's that.

Religion is essentially (leaving aside cultural conditioning for the moment) a question of choosing to believe in a certain deity or philosophy. In some ways it is no different to fervently supporting a football team.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Except for Judaism, of course. Sigh. It doesn't proselytize so it's very difficult to get into and impossible to get out of.

---

One can very well choose to convert to the Judaism religion without being born a Jew. People have done / are doing this.

Impossible to get out of. Realy? If, let's say for argument's sake that you live in country with religious freedom and you have been born into Judaism. You go to the nearest Rabbi and tell him "I don't want to be a part of this anymore." and you stop paying your fee (if there is one, is there?). What can he/they do about it.

There is of course countries that does not have religious freedom and you can not leave the religion they enforce up on you (my country, Sweden, was like that with Christianity up until some 100 years ago)

JohanR

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:

Racism is different in that people should not be treated inequitably simply by virtue of an accident of birth - you are born into a racial group and that's that.

Religion is essentially (leaving aside cultural conditioning for the moment) a question of choosing to believe in a certain deity or philosophy. In some ways it is no different to fervently supporting a football team.

cheers

Nigel

---

I don't like the idea of a group of people being the victims of abuse through their choice of belief. Whether laws are required is debatable and trying to force tolerance is a no hoper. I believe that the argument for laws against the expression of religious hatred rests on the supposition you can't leave aside cultural conditioning.

>Will add something funny when I think of it.<

quote:

---

I believe that the argument for laws against the expression of religious hatred rests on the supposition you can't leave aside cultural conditioning.

---

The point of these stupid laws is to placate certain irascible religious minorities. Passing silly, unworkable laws seems to strike the politicians as being preferable to cleaning up the mess when they get all pissed off like they do.

Earwicker

quote:

---

Originally posted by JohanR:
Impossible to get out of. Realy? If, let's say for argument's sake that you live in country with religious freedom and you have been born into Judaism. You go to the nearest Rabbi and tell him "I don't want to be a part of this anymore." and you stop paying your fee (if there is one, is there?). What can he/they do about it.

JohanR

---

I guess you can duck out of Judaism but you'll always be Jewish.

duncan

Email: djcritchley (at) hotmail dot com

quote:

---

Originally posted by reductionist:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:

Racism is different in that people should not be treated inequitably simply by virtue of an accident of birth - you are born into a racial group and that's that.

Religion is essentially (leaving aside cultural conditioning for the moment) a question of choosing to believe in a certain deity or philosophy. In some ways it is no different to fervently supporting a football team.

cheers

Nigel

---

I don't like the idea of a group of people being the victims of abuse through their choice of belief. Whether laws are required is debatable and trying to force tolerance is a no hoper. I believe that the argument for laws against the expression of religious hatred rests on the supposition you can't leave aside cultural conditioning.

>Will add something funny when I think of it.<

---

Not sure what you mean by abuse or being a victim of it. I am saying that anyone who holds a belief (including me) should not be protected by law (in this country) from that belief being lampooned, or made fun of, whether it is a religious belief or any other belief.

It is interesting that Christians staged no violent protest against the Jerry Springer Opera, whilst Sikhs, seemingly with impunity, staged violent and successful protest against that play in Birmingham, and followers of Islam regularly invoke threats of violence or death against those who cause offence. Where then is the abuse?

[This message was edited by Nigel Cavendish on Fri 14 January 2005 at 14:37.]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JohanR:

quote:

---

Originally posted by 7V:
Except for Judaism, of course. Sigh. It doesn't proselytize so it's very difficult to get into and impossible to get out of.

---

One can very well choose to convert to the Judaism religion without being born a Jew. People have done / are doing this.

Impossible to get out of. Realy? If, let's say for argument's sake that you live in country with religious freedom and you have been born into Judaism. You go to the nearest Rabbi and tell him "I don't want to be a part of this anymore." and you stop paying your fee (if there is one, is there?). What can he/they do about it.

---

I said difficult, Johan, not impossible. My sister-in-law converted to orthodox Judaism but it took a considerable amount of time and study before she was accepted into the religion.

As for getting out, well no, it costs nothing to be Jewish (although you pay if you want to be a member of a particular synagogue).

You can certainly stop being a practising Jew. However, as Duncan says: "I guess you can duck out of Judaism but you'll always be Jewish."

My own wife was born a German Catholic, so our children are not Jewish (in the eyes of Judaism the religion is passed down by the mother). However, if they had been born in mainland Europe 60 years ago, the question that they would have had to answer was whether they had at least one Jewish grandparent.

Steve M

quote:

---

Originally posted by 7V:
You can certainly stop being a _practising_ Jew. However, as Duncan says: "I guess you can duck out of Judaism but you'll always be Jewish."

---

My dad often says this to me:- once a Jew always a Jew. He says it doesn't matter what religion I might convert to or how many times I convert, I'll always be a Jew.

I struggle with this view, because it seems to imply that I have some kind of Jewish gene which gives me who I am. I prefer the idea that I'm a human being like any other, and what gives me who I am physically is my ancestry. What gives me my religion is that it is my mum's.

JR

My wife is Jewish.

Her view is that she belongs to a group with an ethnic, cultural and social history that is rich, interesting and distinct. She has no spiritual connection and does not 'practice' but 'Jewishness' is part of her identity. Viewed like that I think she is quite lucky actually, rather than being encumbered by her ancestral legacy.

Bruce

My wife is also Jewish and therefore both my daughters are.

I remember fondly speaking to her, now departed, Gran who had escaped the atrocities of the camps. Her life was full of fear and hardship but she was thankful that her offspring were not denied the opportunity of seeing her live a natural life and also experience a natural death. Many Jewish families are not that lucky.

Had the Nazi regime had their way and ethnically cleansed Europe (and other regions) of the Jewish race, my family life would not be here and neither would my children.

For that single reason, I abhor what has happened. Prince Harry, Prince Charles and whoever offers them advice should take a cold, hard look at themselves.

A day or so on - I still want to kick his head in............

Signature - surely it's just a Naim ?

Well at least this episode will result in more attention being given to the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

We should be reminded of what humans are capable of doing to one another and perhaps it's not a bad thing for some young people to learn it for the first time.

Steve M

quote:

---

My own wife was born a German Catholic, so our children are not Jewish (in the eyes of Judaism the religion is passed down by the mother). However, if they had been born in mainland Europe 60 years ago, the question that they would have had to answer was whether they had at least one Jewish grandparent.

Steve M

---

I thought matrilineal descendency in Judaism was a hang-over from the Roman occupation of Israel and was carried into the diaspora.

Before the Roman occupation wasn't Jewishness handed down by the father?

Deane

quote:

---

Originally posted by Deane F:
I thought matrilineal descendency in Judaism was a hang-over from the Roman occupation of Israel and was carried into the diaspora.

Before the Roman occupation wasn't Jewishness handed down by the father?

---

Shit Deane,

To be honest I can't remember. I may no longer be in my first flush of youth but I'm not that old.

Steve M

quote:

---

Originally posted by 7V:
To be honest I can't remember. I may no longer be in my first flush of youth but I'm not that old.

---

You could have fooled me, Steve!