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Space: The Final Frontier ... a.k.a. Report from the Toronto Hi-Fi show

Posted by: Mike Hanson on 01 October 2000

I was at the Toronto stereo show yesterday. Unfortunately Naim was not in attendance, but there was some other interesting stuff. Many of the rooms sounded "ok", although nothing blew me away consistently. A few of them sent me screaming.

We listened to my friend's copy of Beethoven's Triple Concerto with Itzhack Pearlman, Yo-Yo Ma and Daniel Barenboim (with Barenboim conducting the Berlin Philharmoniker). This was actually an interesting test track, because it varied hugely from system to system. We also used some Bjork, Goldie and Mahler.

On many systems the Beethoven it was just pitiful and boring. In one case, though it sounded amazing! It was being played through new prototypes from Meadow Song Labs. These are massive ribbon systems, with a woofer cut-off at 250Hz. A custom active crossover comes with the speakers. I've never heard a symphonic piece sound so lifelike on any system! However, this recording (or at least the section we heard during the audition) had very little low frequency information. When we switched to a dance track from Bjork, the whole thing fell apart. It seems that that Boom-Boom-Boom that you get in dance music is near the crossover frequency, and the result was a terrible mess. Oh well.

There was also a Mark Levinson system with Martin Logan speakers worth about US$40K. This had an amazing sense of tonal accuracy and soundstage, but was a too relaxed to keep me interested on an ongoing basis. It wasn't terrible, but just not good in every way. At that price point, I would expect more.

Both of these systems were using alternative speakers. In the same vein, the new Quad ESLs (the big 6 panel behemoths) sounded interesting, although there seemed to be too much body to everything. It was as if I was watching a female body builder dance swan lake. Even if she does all the right moves, something seems wrong.

The best sounding conventional system was driven by Sim Audio electronics with Dynaudio Confidence 3 speakers. This system really boogied, with amazing control of the music.

I gave a very quick listen to the Chord room with "Living Voice" speakers (I'm not sure of the name). This had a wonderful ease of presentation. I was running late at that point, though, and didn't get a chance to put it through its paces. Even with this quick audition, though, I can see why Frank Abela likes Chord gear.

Another amazing system that I didn't spend enough time with had electronics from Antique Sound Labs and Reference 3A speakers. The musical connection created by this system was absolutely astonishing. The interesting thing here was the passive pre-amp, going through massive interconnects to the tube mono-block amps, then through extremely hefty speaker cables. It wouldn't surprise me if the cabling in this system cost as much as the boxes!

Throughout the day I realized that very few systems exhibited the emotional intensity and sense of pace of my Naim system. However, when I got home and sat down in from of my gear, I was struck by how "small" the sound was (even though all those elements of PRaT were present). Many of the systems that I heard filled the room with glorious music, while mine seemed confined and restricted.

I don't know whether this could be considered a "soundstage" issue, as I'm not talking about positioning information in the sound field, blah, blah, blah. I'm talking about a sense of "volume" ("size" not "loudness"). The sound from my system emanates from the between the speakers, rather than energizing the room. Because of this constriction, that permeating sense of realism is missing.

Is it too much to ask for my Naim system to do this? In case you aren't aware, my kit is CDX/82/2*Hi/250/RoydAlbion. What would I have to change to improve this deficiency? Would changing the speakers to something like Martin Logans do the trick? What about a Super-Cap to replace the two Hi-Caps? Would the XPS increase that sense of music filling the space?

In summary, I want a sense of being "in" the music, rather than listening "to" the music. When I'm at a live symphony, the music surrouds me, while also coming from in front of me. With my current system, it merely comes from in front of me. Maybe I should coat my room in tinfoil, just to increase reflections.

Any thoughts? Or am I merely coveting aspects of that American Hi-Fi sound? (Heretic! Burn him at the stake!) Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on SUNDAY 01 October 2000 at 14:02.]

Posted on: 01 October 2000 by P
....performing swan lake ????? - I Like it!!!

Good to have you back Mike .

Controversial stuff as per usual.

Regards P.

Posted on: 01 October 2000 by Bob Edwards
Mike--

Blame the Albions !

Cheers,

Bob

Posted on: 01 October 2000 by David Antonelli
Mike,

I think bob may be right and this may be largely due to the albions. I was surprised at how the sound of my system changed when going to WB ACT 1s. The sound was much bigger and more room filling while also having all the pace and tempo of the albions. I am trying 135s shortly, and will report my results to you, as we have similar systems and I get the feeling we are both looking for the same thing. If CDS 2/52/135s can't get what you want out of the albions then maybe nothing will. The albions present a very flat and wide soundstage I find, with great imaging and pace, but you never get the feeling the music is stretching its fingers out into the room and embracing you. I always feel I am "watching" the music rather than partaking in it.

dave

Posted on: 01 October 2000 by P
Mike , have you ever tried another ( Naim ) CD player bar the CDX?

Regards P. -my granny sucked really big eggs!

Posted on: 01 October 2000 by Arthur Bye
Mike: I would say that at least some of this is from the CDX.

My CDS2 gives a "bigger" sound than my CDX/XPS. I didnt't notice it as much with my Epos-22's, but I recently demoed a set of Vienna Acoustic Beethoven's. The Beethovens have a decidedly big sound that drops off some with the CDX and then blooms again with the CDS2

The Beethovens are nice speakers, fairly neutral, well rounded, but a tad too slow/laid back for my taste.

My 2 cents

Arthur Bye

Posted on: 01 October 2000 by Joe Petrik
quote:
Is it too much to ask for my Naim system to do this?

Mike,

Very likely. I've never heard a Naim system recreate the cavernous soundstage Americans seem to crave. And -10 FEPs for even thinking about it.

quote:
In case you aren't aware, my kit is CDX/82/2*Hi/250/RoydAlbion. What would I have to change to improve this deficiency?

I think most of us have memorized your system and your upgrade path ;-) If you're looking to improve the system, both its groove and size, get an XPS or CDS-II. Source upgrades tend to give you more of everything. And once your system really starts to boogie, you'll care even less about soundstages.


quote:
Would changing the speakers to something like Martin Logans do the trick?

Yeah but it'll give you less of everything that brought you to Naim.

Joe

Posted on: 01 October 2000 by Former member
Mike,

I'm very interested in your comments because something similar happened to me at the Hammersmith show last weekend.
I too was very impressed with the Martin Logans (Podigy, I think). I thought they sounded superbly natural, with great sound stage on large scale classical. I didn't come home feeling fed-up with my naim (CDX/XPS, 82/Supercap, Snaxo/HiCap, 250x2, SBL, Mana 4 tier x 2) because I feel it does different things better.I think its sound stage is pretty good; I just think it lacks the weight needed for a Mahler symphony, Wagner Opera. Although I have shed-loads of CDs of this repertoire I listen more and more to small-scale classical on the naim: Mozart orchestral, chamber music, baroque choral etc. (not to mention pop and jazz). 'Heavier' stuff I listen to on a second system comprising of ancient KEF 105s, Quad 77 CD/Pre/Power/Tuner. This sounds horribly bloated and slow compared to the naim but does give me the 'weight' the other lacks in some material.
However, trying to get close to a live Mahler, Bruckner experience is not even worth bothering with. I've been to hundreds (thousands?) of live concerts and Operas over the years and I've not yet heard a system anywhere that comes further than about 30% towards the live event.

Cheers,

Kevin

[This message was edited by Kevin Grainger on MONDAY 02 October 2000 at 11:13.]

[This message was edited by Kevin Grainger on MONDAY 02 October 2000 at 11:15.]

Posted on: 01 October 2000 by P
Kevin

You're either extremely old or extremely dedicated and fortunate and I envy you !

Regards P.

Posted on: 01 October 2000 by Former member
Mike, I don't know the room setups at the show or at your home, but I have owned Levinson, Krell and may other American beastie amplifiers. I now have a 250/hi/72 that I usually listen to in near field position (the speakers that is). This always presents a much, much more inclusive listening experience for me. Most of the shows that I have attended in the states have speakers in varying degrees of near field listening due to hotel room constraints.

Lance

Posted on: 01 October 2000 by Former member
Pierre

'You're extremely old or extremely dedicated ...'

both actually!


Cheers,

Kevin

Posted on: 01 October 2000 by Former member
Mike.

If you lose an more FEPs, we're going to have to have some of the cenent contractors in St. Mary's have an explanatory conversation with you when you come down for a visit.

Now, for the purpose of discussing this in a purley academic way...

First, with the systems that had a big soundstage at the show, were the speakers well away from the wall? I find this to be the easiest way to generate a soundstage, but it also can do serious damage to things like weight, dynamics, lyricism and tonal richness. You're very likely to hear these trade-offs with a Naim system, though not very likely to produce the kind of enormous sense of space that other brands do. With Naim you can get a bit closer to this lofty ambition, but at a very high price. An XPS will give you more soundstage, but still not what you probably want. Mana Phase 2 actually gives even more space that an XPS, but the XPS seems to generate more weight.

Second, you have to accept the constraints of small-box speakers. With large-scale orchestral music, which you seem to have focussed on in your dems, I find almost all speakers to sound congested, Albions included. This is the price you pay for wanting nice, pretty, "domestic" sounds. If you want it to sound "real" and convincing, you have to move a lot of air. SBLs do it very well, but you don't think you like them. The most convincing sense of real I have heard is with 12" Tannoy Studio speakers, but your wife will hate how they look and I suspect you're still a bit too caught up in the pretty, tinkly, hi-fi Diana Krall thing to forgive their ruthless accuracy. Then there's always DBLs.

IMO, you should just wait to hear what Mana does for you and go from there. If you are like many others, it may turn your entire hi-fi world upside down.

Vuk.

Posted on: 01 October 2000 by Tomas Östlund
quote:
Is it too much to ask for my Naim system to do this? In case you aren't aware, my kit is CDX/82/2*Hi/250/RoydAlbion. What would I have to change to improve this deficiency? Would changing the speakers to something like Martin Logans do the trick? What about a Super-Cap to replace the two Hi-Caps? Would the XPS increase that sense of music filling the space?

Mike

As you might remember I had a similar system (CDX/82/SC/135/Albions). I was rather happy with this system until I tested Isobariks at home. With Isobariks music becomes much more flesh and blood and grabs your attention without ever imposing fatigue. Obviously I bought them and think they are my best buy so far. I.e. the Albions have to go! (Even if they are rather good speakers)

Regards Tomas

Posted on: 01 October 2000 by Arye_Gur
Mike ,

It doesn't matter how will you upgrade your system
you will never get at home the quality you get at
the concert hall.

I heard a demostration of Theta/Mark Levinson/Willson all at the price of 85K US $
in Israel - and was disappointed. Few people
told me that I felt so because I know I will never
have the money to buy such a system....

Arie

Posted on: 01 October 2000 by Former member
Mike,

As Vuk has pointed out, there is no substitute for cubic inches - or something to that effect. I too have been constrained by my pechant for little speakers and have chosen Sonus Fabers for their ability to make themselves sound bigger than they look. They do bass pretty good too for their size, but still lightweight compared to SBLs and other respectable floorstanders.

Then, as part of my Manamania upgrades, I installed Soundbases under the SF/Stands. I was expecting the usual effect of better coherence, clarity, grooviness, and control. I got all that and then this.

Bass weight and punch I've heard only from much bigger speakers. It's as if my 6 inch drivers have grown to 10 inches and added a pair of auxiliary bass radiators to the mix. I can only posit that the Soundbases are minimising energy losses to my sprung floor as they vibrate far less now even at higher volumes. I suggest anyone wanting more immediate music from their speakers to give them a try.

James

Posted on: 01 October 2000 by Former member
Mike,
I don't know your Albions, but moving them far from the rear wall should increase the depth of the soundstage.
I have found that width and height in my system depend also on equipment support. Putting spikes under my cd3.5 increases detail, but the bass is weaker and the soundstage is smaller.
I got a wider soundstage since I put Linn Skeet under my speakers.
I only have one hicap. Normally I use it to power the CD, but when used to power the 72 the soundstage becomes greater. It feels like the sound 'grows'.
Finally... I was really impressed by the soundstage produced by CD5 compared to CDX (CDS2 is lightyears ahead).
In my opinion, the soundstage produced by CDX is rather small, although my experience may be affected by a non-appropriate setup.

Stefano.

PS
If it is soundstage that you're looking for, then Joe is right: Martin Logan are truly wonderful. And Magneplanar also, although the sound is not warm as dynamic speakers. Moreover, they really need to be placed very far from walls.
Among other speakers, Sonus Faber also seem to have a wide sound. I have listened to SF Guarnieri Homage in a Naim system and the soundstage is HUGE

[This message was edited by Stefano Rosati on MONDAY 02 October 2000 at 00:05.]

Posted on: 01 October 2000 by Former member
quote:
As you might remember I had a similar system (CDX/82/SC/135/Albions). I was rather happy with this system until I tested Isobariks at home ... the Albions have to go!

Tomas.

We're going to have to come up with a new Snappy for this one: Most Inapropriate Advice, perhaps?

Don't get me wrong, the Isobariks are one of the tiny handful of speakers I would use--certainly better than Albions and what I have at the moment--but they are about as flat earth as it gets (maybe Saras would be the ultimate), so to recommend them to a soundstage freak is rather funny.

Will Mike ever see the light?

Vuk.

Posted on: 01 October 2000 by Martin Payne
Mike,

following on from Tomas' & Vuk's contributions (only because I use active Isobariks).

I use a CDX and have been demoing CDS-II/CDPS - the music has opened out dramatically. By comparison the CDX (which I was quite happy with) sounds superficial, forward, unsubtle. After only three days of burn-in the CDS-II is astonishing me with vast swathes of musical detail which had simply passed me by before. All this is presented with so much more depth and control that I'm sure you would find this resolves many of your concerns.

Also, having heard an XPS added to a CDX (in 82/Super/135/SBL system) I can say you will get a much more authoritative sound with far more control and depth and scale and drive and information. This is the orthodox upgrade path because it works - I was astonished at how big an improvement it is. I think the CDX/XPS (at least in this relatively back-end heavy system) is better value than the bare CDX.

Getting back to my system, I haven't noticed a great change in the scale of things (yet?) but I have some room problems which add some confusion in the midrange and emphasises the mid-bass over the sub-bass. I forsee a bout of maddened furniture shuffling in about a month's time.

This issue with the bass is relevent to you. I find that a controlled and extended bass is essential to a sense of scale. (The XPS on the CDX will give you this in spades, among many other things).

So consider adding a REL sub-woofer. Having heard these many times in conjunction with the above SBL system I have to say that the sound shrinks dramatically in scale when the sub is switched off. You will need to pay a lot of attention to positioning, and then make sure it's tuned so subtly that you barely know it's there apart from that sense of scale. Set like this you will also find a much cleaner mid and treble appears, for some reason.

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 02 October 2000 by Former member
It's well known that Naim systems don't produce what is perceived as "air", it's not that they don't do it at all, but other manufacturers believe it to have more importance than Naim. Improving the power supplies will do nothing to improve this aspect of your sound, (although it will be improved in many other ways). I've heard 2 modified Hicaps, one with different regulators, and one with a new board with totally discrete regulation, both times giving more "air", but also, I thought, destroying most of the good things that a Naim system is about.
I guess you've tried moving your Albions about, Naim often poo-poo this aspect of system setup, i.e. backs to the wall approach, but moving the speakers away from the wall and increasing the toe in can help lots.
Hows the weather in Canada right now? I had a holiday in Canada last year and had a really great time!

Posted on: 02 October 2000 by Kevin Hughes
quote:
I don't know whether this could be considered a "soundstage" issue, as I'm not talking about positioning information in the sound field, blah, blah, blah. I'm talking about a sense of "volume" ("size" not "loudness"). The sound from my system emanates from the between the speakers, rather than energizing the room.

I agree with Martin, you need low bass to fix this problem, and the easiest way to test this is with a quality sub borowed from a dealer. It will screw up on lots of muisc though, you will almost certanly send it back.

Kevin.

Posted on: 02 October 2000 by Andrew Randle
Mike,

I've just read your message about the Hi-Fi show in Canada and noted that you were wondering how to get that bigger sound. Even as far as buying Martin Logans :-(

However, if you want that bigger sound I have 2 options. Option 2 is by far the least expensive.

1) Try out the Magneplanars (www.magnepan.com). I heard a pair and they really show up what the amp and cd player is capable of. They really communicate. As you would expect, they do present a sound that fills the room.
2) The NBLs are certainly bigger - but very expensive.

Andrew Randle


Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

Posted on: 02 October 2000 by Andrew Randle
P.S. You can try Magneplanars now, although the NBLs may have to wait until you've upgraded the source/amps.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

Posted on: 02 October 2000 by Tony L
quote:
Don't get me wrong, the Isobariks are one of the tiny handful of speakers I would use--certainly better than Albions and what I have at the moment--but they are about as flat earth as it gets (maybe Saras would be the ultimate), so to recommend them to a soundstage freak is rather funny.

I love the way that well set up Bariks image. Thankfully they are a far cry from the 'floaty head' non-reality of US kit, they have a real knack of placing very real and solid sounding instruments in a similar way to live music. US style images sound very unreal to me - I have never heard a band or orchestra image in this way.

Tony.

PS Mike, thought about a second hand pair of Quads? Assuming you are not a volume freak, electrostatics combine excellent imaging with PRaT and the ability to move quite a lot of air. I personally prefer the 57s to the 63s, and they are great value, though the new ones sounded very good indeed at the Hammersmith show.

Posted on: 02 October 2000 by Rico
quote:
It's well known that Naim systems don't produce what is perceived as "air", it's not that they don't do it at all, but other manufacturers believe it to have more importance than Naim.

Welcome, Mike. Interesting point.... been discussed here a lot. I think you'll find many here will characterise this not so much as 'less important' but more 'artifice' where loads of this soundstage stuff is concerned. Imaging, yeah! Floaty ten-foot-wide singers? No way!


James - does this Mana stuff come with Vacuum Enlargement? I'm more than a little concerned with post descibing growth of yer cones from a mere six to ten inches. Wouldn't Briks be less painful?

There are some here who have complained when they found a soundstage on moving to new lodgings. Max FEP value.

Rico - musichead

Posted on: 02 October 2000 by Former member
Rico

quote:
does this Mana stuff come with Vacuum Enlargement? I'm more than a little concerned with post descibing growth of yer cones from a mere six to ten inches. Wouldn't Briks be less painful?

It's not so much vacuum as it's viagra. It'll do wonders to your 4 and a half inch cones. You might even realise a full 6 inch and finally get some bass from your Kans

Briks are ugly and can never stir a positive response from my better half even if they have perfectly pistonic movement. Do I get another FEP for this comeback?

James

Posted on: 02 October 2000 by Tomas Östlund
quote:
We're going to have to come up with a new Snappy for this one: Most Inapropriate Advice, perhaps?

Vuk

Are there different ways to interpret the following?

Mike wrote:

quote:
However, when I got home and sat down in from of my gear, I was struck by how "small" the sound was (even though all those elements of PRaT were present). ...

I don't know whether this could be considered a "soundstage" issue, as I'm not talking about positioning information in the sound field, blah, blah, blah. I'm talking about a sense of "volume" ("size" not "loudness"). The sound from my system emanates from the between the speakers, rather than energising the room. Because of this constriction, that permeating sense of realism is missing.

It might be my lacking knowledge in English but I understands the above as if Mike is not only concerned with getting a big soundstage but he is lacking a sense of scale and realism. In my view this is exactly what you get with Isobariks. Compared with Albions voices and instruments get body and presence and you certainly energise the room. I agree that they don't have a wide soundstage but they do have a very deep soundstage.

Snappy or no snappy I still make the same recommendation.

Regards Tomas