Space: The Final Frontier ... a.k.a. Report from the Toronto Hi-Fi show

Good to have you back Mike .

Controversial stuff as per usual.

Regards P.

Blame the Albions !

Cheers,

Bob

I think bob may be right and this may be largely due to the albions. I was surprised at how the sound of my system changed when going to WB ACT 1s. The sound was much bigger and more room filling while also having all the pace and tempo of the albions. I am trying 135s shortly, and will report my results to you, as we have similar systems and I get the feeling we are both looking for the same thing. If CDS 2/52/135s can't get what you want out of the albions then maybe nothing will. The albions present a very flat and wide soundstage I find, with great imaging and pace, but you never get the feeling the music is stretching its fingers out into the room and embracing you. I always feel I am "watching" the music rather than partaking in it.

dave

Regards P. -my granny sucked really big eggs!

My CDS2 gives a "bigger" sound than my CDX/XPS. I didnt't notice it as much with my Epos-22's, but I recently demoed a set of Vienna Acoustic Beethoven's. The Beethovens have a decidedly big sound that drops off some with the CDX and then blooms again with the CDS2

The Beethovens are nice speakers, fairly neutral, well rounded, but a tad too slow/laid back for my taste.

My 2 cents

Arthur Bye

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Is it too much to ask for my Naim system to do this?

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Mike,

Very likely. I've never heard a Naim system recreate the cavernous soundstage Americans seem to crave. And -10 FEPs for even thinking about it.

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In case you aren't aware, my kit is CDX/82/2*Hi/250/RoydAlbion. What would I have to change to improve this deficiency?

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I think most of us have memorized your system and your upgrade path ;-) If you're looking to improve the system, both its groove and size, get an XPS or CDS-II. Source upgrades tend to give you more of everything. And once your system really starts to boogie, you'll care even less about soundstages.

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Would changing the speakers to something like Martin Logans do the trick?

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Yeah but it'll give you less of everything that brought you to Naim.

Joe

You're either extremely old or extremely dedicated and fortunate and I envy you !

Regards P.

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Is it too much to ask for my Naim system to do this? In case you aren't aware, my kit is CDX/82/2*Hi/250/RoydAlbion. What would I have to change to improve this deficiency? Would changing the speakers to something like Martin Logans do the trick? What about a Super-Cap to replace the two Hi-Caps? Would the XPS increase that sense of music filling the space?

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Mike

As you might remember I had a similar system (CDX/82/SC/135/Albions). I was rather happy with this system until I tested Isobariks at home. With Isobariks music becomes much more flesh and blood and grabs your attention without ever imposing fatigue. Obviously I bought them and think they are my best buy so far. I.e. the Albions have to go! (Even if they are rather good speakers)

Regards Tomas

It doesn't matter how will you upgrade your system
you will never get at home the quality you get at
the concert hall.

I heard a demostration of Theta/Mark Levinson/Willson all at the price of 85K US $
in Israel - and was disappointed. Few people
told me that I felt so because I know I will never
have the money to buy such a system....

Arie

following on from Tomas' & Vuk's contributions (only because I use active Isobariks).

I use a CDX and have been demoing CDS-II/CDPS - the music has opened out dramatically. By comparison the CDX (which I was quite happy with) sounds superficial, forward, unsubtle. After only three days of burn-in the CDS-II is astonishing me with vast swathes of musical detail which had simply passed me by before. All this is presented with so much more depth and control that I'm sure you would find this resolves many of your concerns.

Also, having heard an XPS added to a CDX (in 82/Super/135/SBL system) I can say you will get a much more authoritative sound with far more control and depth and scale and drive and information. This is the orthodox upgrade path because it works - I was astonished at how big an improvement it is. I think the CDX/XPS (at least in this relatively back-end heavy system) is better value than the bare CDX.

Getting back to my system, I haven't noticed a great change in the scale of things (yet?) but I have some room problems which add some confusion in the midrange and emphasises the mid-bass over the sub-bass. I forsee a bout of maddened furniture shuffling in about a month's time.

This issue with the bass is relevent to you. I find that a controlled and extended bass is essential to a sense of scale. (The XPS on the CDX will give you this in spades, among many other things).

So consider adding a REL sub-woofer. Having heard these many times in conjunction with the above SBL system I have to say that the sound shrinks dramatically in scale when the sub is switched off. You will need to pay a lot of attention to positioning, and then make sure it's tuned so subtly that you barely know it's there apart from that sense of scale. Set like this you will also find a much cleaner mid and treble appears, for some reason.

cheers, Martin

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I don't know whether this could be considered a "soundstage" issue, as I'm not talking about positioning information in the sound field, blah, blah, blah. I'm talking about a sense of "volume" ("size" not "loudness"). The sound from my system emanates from the between the speakers, rather than energizing the room.

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I agree with Martin, you need low bass to fix this problem, and the easiest way to test this is with a quality sub borowed from a dealer. It will screw up on lots of muisc though, you will almost certanly send it back.

Kevin.

I've just read your message about the Hi-Fi show in Canada and noted that you were wondering how to get that bigger sound. Even as far as buying Martin Logans :-(

However, if you want that bigger sound I have 2 options. Option 2 is by far the least expensive.

1) Try out the Magneplanars (www.magnepan.com). I heard a pair and they really show up what the amp and cd player is capable of. They really communicate. As you would expect, they do present a sound that fills the room.
2) The NBLs are certainly bigger - but very expensive.

Andrew Randle

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

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Don't get me wrong, the Isobariks are one of the tiny handful of speakers I would use--certainly better than Albions and what I have at the moment--but they are about as flat earth as it gets (maybe Saras would be the ultimate), so to recommend them to a soundstage freak is rather funny.

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I love the way that well set up Bariks image. Thankfully they are a far cry from the 'floaty head' non-reality of US kit, they have a real knack of placing very real and solid sounding instruments in a similar way to live music. US style images sound very unreal to me - I have never heard a band or orchestra image in this way.

Tony.

PS Mike, thought about a second hand pair of Quads? Assuming you are not a volume freak, electrostatics combine excellent imaging with PRaT and the ability to move quite a lot of air. I personally prefer the 57s to the 63s, and they are great value, though the new ones sounded very good indeed at the Hammersmith show.

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It's well known that Naim systems don't produce what is perceived as "air", it's not that they don't do it at all, but other manufacturers believe it to have more importance than Naim.

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Welcome, Mike. Interesting point.... been discussed here a lot. I think you'll find many here will characterise this not so much as 'less important' but more 'artifice' where loads of this soundstage stuff is concerned. Imaging, yeah! Floaty ten-foot-wide singers? No way!

James - does this Mana stuff come with Vacuum Enlargement? I'm more than a little concerned with post descibing growth of yer cones from a mere six to ten inches. Wouldn't Briks be less painful?

There are some here who have complained when they found a soundstage on moving to new lodgings. Max FEP value.

Rico - musichead

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We're going to have to come up with a new Snappy for this one: Most Inapropriate Advice, perhaps?

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Vuk

Are there different ways to interpret the following?

Mike wrote:

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However, when I got home and sat down in from of my gear, I was struck by how "small" the sound was (even though all those elements of PRaT were present). ...

I don't know whether this could be considered a "soundstage" issue, as I'm not talking about positioning information in the sound field, blah, blah, blah. I'm talking about a sense of "volume" ("size" not "loudness"). The sound from my system emanates from the between the speakers, rather than energising the room. Because of this constriction, that permeating sense of realism is missing.

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It might be my lacking knowledge in English but I understands the above as if Mike is not only concerned with getting a big soundstage but he is lacking a sense of scale and realism. In my view this is exactly what you get with Isobariks. Compared with Albions voices and instruments get body and presence and you certainly energise the room. I agree that they don't have a wide soundstage but they do have a very deep soundstage.

Snappy or no snappy I still make the same recommendation.

Regards Tomas

If the budget will stretch to it it's certainly worth considering. I've managed to acquire a CDPS (PS from CDS-I with modified Burndy). This was intended for my CDX, but it's now doing the business with a CDS-II head unit. Extrapolate the price you'd expect to pay for a five year old XPS (if such a thing existed) - I paid around half that.

cheers, Martin

David Antonelli said:

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The albions present a very flat and wide soundstage I find, with great imaging and pace, but you never get the feeling the music is stretching its fingers out into the room and embracing you. I always feel I am "watching" the music rather than partaking in it.

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That's definitely how I feel right now. If I really turn it up loud, this starts to improve. However, if you get it too loud they start shouting. One interesting point: I passed on the Credos and SBLs because they were worse than the Albions in the "Look at the music over there!" department. I often commented on the Credos, "It sounds like a great party is going on across the street, and I wasn't invited."

Pierre (the Surnameless one) said:

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have you ever tried another ( Naim ) CD player bar the CDX?

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I used to have a 3.5/Flat-Cap, then 3.5/Hi-Cap. I've also listened to the CDX/XPS and CDS2 numerous times. I like what the XPS does to the CDX, and I really like the CDS2. However, none of these seems to impact the salient issue of music filling the room.

Arthur Bye said:

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My CDS2 gives a "bigger" sound than my CDX/XPS.

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It does have a "rounder" sound; much more natural. However, it doesn't compare to the sense of ambience that I was hearing on Saturday.

Kevin Grainger said:

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However, trying to get close to a live Mahler, Bruckner experience is not even worth bothering with.

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Actually, there were a few systems at the show that sounded very lifelike with big Mahler and Beethoven selections. None of them were perfect, but I was bloody impressed at how close they seemed to come. At the same time, they all were less than my own system in the PRaT department.

Lance A. Akridge said:

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I usually listen in near field position

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That's interesting, as I also listen that way at my office, and I do feel a little more "inside" the music. It looks like positioning of the speakers might be part of the problem.

Vuk Vuksanovic said:

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were the speakers well away from the wall? .... If you want it to sound "real" and convincing, you have to move a lot of air.

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Absolutely, and that's probably a major factor. However, the SimAudio/Dynaudio setup was also setup this way, and it didn't create that same sense of envelopment. That why I'm not accepting speaker positioning as the only explanation, and am also considering the possibility of electrostatics and their ilk.

I'm certainly willing to go for bigger speakers, whether that's NBLs, DBLs, Dynaudio Confidence 5s, Quad ESLs or whatever. I'm still going to wait until I get my house and its new room, as that will change the speaker equation quite a bit. If the room is bigger, then I'll certainly need bigger speakers. However, I suspect that the new room will more likely be smaller, so maybe the Albions will be OK.

BTW, do you realize that you've poisoned my mind? I've started to believe that my Albions don't have enough dynamic slam to satisfy my desires.

James Jong said:

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there is no substitute for cubic inches

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In general I agree with you. Curiously, the Dynaudio Confidence 3 had TONS of slam, a wonderful sense of scale, and great bass extension. It isn't much bigger than the Albion.

Mike McDonald said:

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I guess you've tried moving your Albions …. Hows the weather in Canada right now?

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I've played with this a bit, although I don't have that much room to maneuver right now. Moving them further from the wall had a slight impact, but not a major one. Toeing them in closed up the sound further. BTW, the weather here is typical autumn: warm, cold, warm, cold, etc.

Kevin Hughes said:

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you need low bass to fix this problem

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I'm starting to lean in the direction of bigger speakers that would address this issue.

Tony Lonorgan said:

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Thankfully they are a far cry from the 'floaty head' non-reality of US kit …. thought about a second hand pair of Quads?

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I don't want false soundstage (i.e. floaty heads"). I want something that seems "real", which implies "realistic".

There were some of the new ESLs at the show (the huge six panel monsters) and they sounded quite interesting. Volume, slam and bass were not limited, but they sounded a little "thick" (see my Swan Lake metaphor). Of course, this could have been a problem with the associated electronics, and I may end up giving them a try. I just wish they weren't made of ugly black pastic.

Summary...

All said, it sounds like I need bigger speakers to get bigger sound. However, I want everyone to rest assured that it's a ways down the road. First comes my house, then the new room, then the new stand (maybe Mana), then the XPS, and I'll follow from there. If I'm still not satisfied by the "size" of my music by then, I may change the speakers.

I like to be enveloped by the music, versus having it fire at me from the other side of the room. This is very enticing, but I'm not willing to sacrifice PRaT to get it. I'll keep tweaking, examining, enjoying, cringing, etc., until I've reached Nirvana. If I never get there, I'll sure have fun trying. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on TUESDAY 03 October 2000 at 13:26.]

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I like to be enveloped by the music, versus having it fire at me from the other side of the room.

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This statement sounds deeply suspicious to me. Music does happen at the other side of the room unless you are actually in the band. Even multitrack stuff happens the other side of the mic, and is created using monitors in front of the engineer.

The only way to my mind you should be "enveloped by the music" is if Q-Sound or other recent electronic 3D spatial trickery is employed. It is disturbing how many people feel US 'valve soup' imaging has any place in reality. I always go back to simple things like an acoustic guitar for a reference - and I've never been enveloped by one of them, nor a full orchestra for that matter - they all happen "over there". Flat earth imaging is to my mind correct.

Tony.

And while I remember your system well , what kind of supports are you using and what is your room setup?

- GregB
Freedom is not in finding the Holy Grail but in stopping the search for it

My observations with the albions are spot on with yours. I found with going from CDX to CDX/XPS and then to CDS2 the shoutiness at higher volumes diminished but never dissapeared. WIthout the WB stands the music seems flabby and the bass agressive and punctuated. All these things together aren't enough, however, to fully get rid of this problem. At low volumes the sound comes from between the speakers, but when you turn it up to get a more full and detailed and involving musical experience there is always that agressive edge (gets much smaller with better electronics) but its always there. So I am not keeping the albions, although they certainly do dozens of things extremely well. Just when you want that scale, that feeling of being enveoped in music, they hammer you instead.

Maybe 135s will help?

I'll soon see.

dave

PS right now the price tag and my new found interest in LeRoy wines is the only thing that has kept me from getting ACT 2s. Even so, I think February is the time to change!c

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Music does happen at the other side of the room

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If I am listening to speakers on the other side of the room compared to a piano on the other side of the room, there is a very distinct difference. The piano will do a better job at filling the room with music, while the two-channel system will feel like a the music is being shot at me with a bullet. The ambience is very different. I suspect this is because the piano provides a larger vibrating area compared to the very small drivers in the speakers.

However, even a live trumpet will seem more "present" than a reproduced one. When we start talking about orchestras, this sense of music coming from both across the room and from "everywhere" is heightened much further.

A microphone records the performance at a single point, so I suppose the reproduction should be a point source. However, it seems that larger speakers do a better job at creating this sense of ambience. I don't know whether it's because they provide more vibrational area, or if they simply move more air to reproduce that sense of realistic dynamics and scale. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

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There's also the problem of that enormous thing you have in between the speakers, right? In the end though, you will never get proper dynamics from the ALbions: they simply can not do this. BTW--I keep hearing nice things about Dynaudio, why did you pass on them when you tried every speaker in the world a couple of years ago?

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Yes, the cabinet may be screwing up things a bit, and nothing can be done until I get into new digs.

I agree with you on the dynamics issues, although I'm curious to see how Mana and an XPS might help the world.

I was interested in trying Dynaudio last year, but I couldn't find a dealer here during my search. I had also heard that Dynaudios were a heavy load, and I had only a 140 at the time. Even with my 250, I might have troubles with some of the bigger models. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

I reached the same conclusions as you with my SBLs. No matter what I attached it wasn't giving the scale I was after (I tried CDSII and 52). I found the WB Actors the solution for me - they give me the extra scale and are easily driven by a 250 (I don't think ACT1/ACT2/NBLs/DBLs fit the bill), and they are superbly responsive and neutral).

David

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If I am listening to speakers on the other side of the room compared to a piano on the other side of the room, there is a very distinct difference. The piano will do a better job at filling the room with music, while the two-channel system will feel like a the music is being shot at me with a bullet. The ambience is very different. I suspect this is because the piano provides a larger vibrating area compared to the very small drivers in the speakers.

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This is what I call "air moving ability" - there are very few speakers that can do this to my mind satisfactorily - Isobariks, DBLs, and large panel speakers. I misunderstood your "enveloping with music" phrase (it is the kind wording that makes Stereophile so funny). I stand by my recommendation to hear Quads on the end of your system, they have a very large air moving area compared to most moving coil speakers, though are not for volume freaks. There are so few box speakers around that don't have reflex ports these days, and therefor few I could live with, judging by the recent Hammersmith show, you can always tell the ones that have from outside the room. I feel the current crop of moving coil box speakers are nearly all appalling.

Tony.