Space: The Final Frontier ... a.k.a. Report from the Toronto Hi-Fi show

Posted by: Mike Hanson on 01 October 2000

I was at the Toronto stereo show yesterday. Unfortunately Naim was not in attendance, but there was some other interesting stuff. Many of the rooms sounded "ok", although nothing blew me away consistently. A few of them sent me screaming.

We listened to my friend's copy of Beethoven's Triple Concerto with Itzhack Pearlman, Yo-Yo Ma and Daniel Barenboim (with Barenboim conducting the Berlin Philharmoniker). This was actually an interesting test track, because it varied hugely from system to system. We also used some Bjork, Goldie and Mahler.

On many systems the Beethoven it was just pitiful and boring. In one case, though it sounded amazing! It was being played through new prototypes from Meadow Song Labs. These are massive ribbon systems, with a woofer cut-off at 250Hz. A custom active crossover comes with the speakers. I've never heard a symphonic piece sound so lifelike on any system! However, this recording (or at least the section we heard during the audition) had very little low frequency information. When we switched to a dance track from Bjork, the whole thing fell apart. It seems that that Boom-Boom-Boom that you get in dance music is near the crossover frequency, and the result was a terrible mess. Oh well.

There was also a Mark Levinson system with Martin Logan speakers worth about US$40K. This had an amazing sense of tonal accuracy and soundstage, but was a too relaxed to keep me interested on an ongoing basis. It wasn't terrible, but just not good in every way. At that price point, I would expect more.

Both of these systems were using alternative speakers. In the same vein, the new Quad ESLs (the big 6 panel behemoths) sounded interesting, although there seemed to be too much body to everything. It was as if I was watching a female body builder dance swan lake. Even if she does all the right moves, something seems wrong.

The best sounding conventional system was driven by Sim Audio electronics with Dynaudio Confidence 3 speakers. This system really boogied, with amazing control of the music.

I gave a very quick listen to the Chord room with "Living Voice" speakers (I'm not sure of the name). This had a wonderful ease of presentation. I was running late at that point, though, and didn't get a chance to put it through its paces. Even with this quick audition, though, I can see why Frank Abela likes Chord gear.

Another amazing system that I didn't spend enough time with had electronics from Antique Sound Labs and Reference 3A speakers. The musical connection created by this system was absolutely astonishing. The interesting thing here was the passive pre-amp, going through massive interconnects to the tube mono-block amps, then through extremely hefty speaker cables. It wouldn't surprise me if the cabling in this system cost as much as the boxes!

Throughout the day I realized that very few systems exhibited the emotional intensity and sense of pace of my Naim system. However, when I got home and sat down in from of my gear, I was struck by how "small" the sound was (even though all those elements of PRaT were present). Many of the systems that I heard filled the room with glorious music, while mine seemed confined and restricted.

I don't know whether this could be considered a "soundstage" issue, as I'm not talking about positioning information in the sound field, blah, blah, blah. I'm talking about a sense of "volume" ("size" not "loudness"). The sound from my system emanates from the between the speakers, rather than energizing the room. Because of this constriction, that permeating sense of realism is missing.

Is it too much to ask for my Naim system to do this? In case you aren't aware, my kit is CDX/82/2*Hi/250/RoydAlbion. What would I have to change to improve this deficiency? Would changing the speakers to something like Martin Logans do the trick? What about a Super-Cap to replace the two Hi-Caps? Would the XPS increase that sense of music filling the space?

In summary, I want a sense of being "in" the music, rather than listening "to" the music. When I'm at a live symphony, the music surrouds me, while also coming from in front of me. With my current system, it merely comes from in front of me. Maybe I should coat my room in tinfoil, just to increase reflections.

Any thoughts? Or am I merely coveting aspects of that American Hi-Fi sound? (Heretic! Burn him at the stake!) Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on SUNDAY 01 October 2000 at 14:02.]

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Mike Hanson
The suggestions for Shahinian speakers is intriguing. I've not had a chance to here them, and it looks like I'll have to check them out. Now to find out if there is a dealer somewhere near me. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Mike Hanson
I'm glad that we understand each other. I'm also quite put off by false soundstage (a.k.a. "floaty heads"). I don't mind hearing positional information that's on the recording, but I don't want exaggerated special effects.

I was just listening to the Frank Loesser's musical "The Most Happy Fella", and I was really enjoying it. I didn't even realize until I read it in the booklet that it's a mono recording! Does that earn me any of my FEPs back? Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Mike Hanson
I did audition the A1 and A3. I found both to sound a little slow and disorganized (although that could have been the fault of the Adcom gear driving them). I felt that the A1 sounded much better than its bigger sibling. The A3 seemed very colored, with a bloated, flappy bass. Again, some of this should be blamed on the electronics. I never bothered to try them at home on my Naim gear, which can make a HUGE difference. Even the cheap Polk Audio Monitor 5jr sounded pretty amazing slotted into my system. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by P
Omer I agree with you

Blimey I agree with someone at last

Dynaudios , especially the 1.8 Contours , can be very good with classical music "Exclusively" but they also need to be at least 1-1.5 metres away from any wall or reflective surface. Contour 1.8's also really need 135's to do them any justice.

Shahinian arcs are fine if you like spatial surround sound systems but as serious air movers? gimme a break!

Regards P. -the anonymous one for a very good reason by the way Mike

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by David Antonelli
Vuk,

To answer your question, sometimes I wonder myself, but there just aren't that many other contenders for speakers out there. For me the WB ACT 1s were sublime and did everything the albions did better and then did things the albions coul never drea m of doing. There wasn't a single category that the albions matched the ACT 1s in. Now the ACT 2 is said to be much better at dynamics, smoother, easier to drive, more extended trebble (super revelator instead of revelator), deeper bass, and has the sam e bass and mid range drivers as the Bishop (except the clam shell isobarics). Slightly taller and a wooden spine to boot, they are better looking than the ACT 1, and not that much more expensive.

For a while I considered Dynaudio (too hard to drive and p lain). Then JM Lab. Mezzo Utopias. Interesting but way too big for my room. NBLs: too lean and dry for my tastes and also way too big.

As for WB, I do a lot of research on electronic properties of advanced carbon composites and because of this think the ACT 2s are cool. Once you fall in love...

dave”

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Mike Hanson
I'm pretty sure that I won't be trying Celestions again, given my personal impressions and your scathing report.

BTW, I should stress that regardless of how much I moan and complain about my system, I'm really quite happy with its performance. I'm just a perfectionist bastard.

Right at the moment I'm getting thoroughly bored listening to Beethoven's Violin Concerto, as performed by Anne-Sophie Mutter, with Karajan conduting the Berliner Philharmoniker. It's agonizingly drawn-out and S-L-O-W... Sometimes I don't mind it, but today it's really annoying. The silly thing is that I can't bring myself to change the CD. (It must be that obsessive penchant I have for completeness. ) Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Mike Hanson
quote:
I'm not going to argue with you heavyweights

Considering your chosen moniker, I tend to view everything you say as potential troll-speak. As long as you have a name that sounds like a clown on the professional wrestling curcuit, you can expect the "heavyweights" to give your expostulations little credence. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on TUESDAY 03 October 2000 at 20:13.]

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by P
Hey Omer Simpson?

You wanna trade insults on names?

Have a word with Vuk! He rilly appreciates that kind of thing.

Regards P.

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Mike Hanson
Why is it that the new software has brought out the trolls? You know the type: doesn't give his name, pokes everyone with a stick to see if they flinch, etc. Maybe all the cute smilies have attracted a bunch of children.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Mike Hanson
Thank-you. It's appreciated by many. I'll now give your future statements more credence. BTW, I think that it may have been the A2 and not the A3 that I was auditioning. I can't recall for sure right now.

I can say one thing for sure. Most speakers that I tried were immediately stricken from my list, but the Celestions got a second try at bat. That says something for them. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by P
Nice one Hom

Regards P.

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Greg Beatty
To Homer

quote:

One more thing I am finding out is that all 2-way systems I've heard lack something - either snap in the upper midrange, or the bass is skewed or lacking, and often also muddy-ing the music.

OK then...

...What do you suggest?

And I'm not disagreeing with you...I'm curious. Three-ways? Lothers? Quads? C'mon...let the cat out of the bag.

- GregB
Freedom is not in finding the Holy Grail but in stopping the search for it

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Martin Payne
Mike,

I certainly think you ought to try out the subwoofer option - it can be a surprising effective way to improve the clean-ness and open-ness of the mid and treble.

On the subject of speaker suggestions, I've been very impressed with Monitor Audio Studio 60's on the end of a CD2/72/HiCap/250 (i.e. the speakers are about half the total system budget including stands and cables). These speakers are very easy to drive and have a big, spacious sound. Even though they are ported they seem to be informative and controlled in the bass. They even worked pretty well on the end of a CD3 but improved dramatically when the CD2 was slotted in.

Assuming these are out of your price range I'd certainly suggest trying one of the cheaper models.

Tony,

"This statement sounds deeply suspicious to me. Music does happen at the other side of the room unless you are actually in the band."

I read Mike's comment as a wish for more 'vividness' or 'richness'. A Naim system that's working really well should do this. The CDS-II should also give a huge improvement in this area. I'd have to suspect either the speakers (with which I've no experience) or setup.

David,

"No matter what I attached it wasn't giving the scale I was after..."

I agree, the SBL is not a 'big' speaker. It's capable of a fantastic performance, but big-speaker scale is not one of it's strengths.


cheers all, Martin

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Graeme Cree
Dynaudio Contour is a fine range of speakers on the end of Naim but . . .

1. These muthers are power hungry - I had to trade my 180 for a pair of 135s to get 1.8s under control. Don't think of anything less than 250 to drive Contours (Audience range are easier).

2. They absolutely need s p a c e around them; mine are 2 feet from rear wall and one is 12" from (curtained) side wall - still sub-optimal.

3. You don't need a sub with these baybees - they know how to do bass - to the extent I have port plugs in half the time

4. Anyone that caught the Contour 3.3s on a 12" stack of Mana at Hammersmith will know what they can do - if you like the kind of music JW and the boys were playing (a little self-indulgently I thought).

Has anyone found a speaker that doesn't hit the ends stops on either St. Germain tracks (the upbeat ones) or George Duke's "It's On" ? Even the Confidence series banged up under 135s or a big Chord amp. Maybe I should have tried my CD on the DBLs at Hammersmith . . .

Don't get me wrong - I like the Dynaudio 1.8s - they can move air (and the 1.3s are wicked as well - feel the breeze from that rear port). Not as "fast" as Naim speakers but the latter are much leaner in the bass, which is why several people use subs to fill them out. But Dynaudio do have a much greater WAF because of the slim front profile and great finish.

Which all goes to show life's a compromise . . .

Thank you and goodnight.

Graeme

Posted on: 08 October 2000 by David Antonelli
Cliff,

Maybe a 500 will be in the cards at some stage. I think when the CDS2 came out I couldn't afford it so I decided I didn't need one. Then when some money came my way I bought it and wondered why i waited so long. I've got some ACT 2s coming in february and after that 135s or a 500 are the only upgrades left apart from a Nat 01. I'm still not sold on naim speakers.

As for the 500, I just bought a bunch of LeRoy Chambertin, so maybe that's what's been causing teh delays. I was starting to feel I was spending a disproportionate amount of my disposable income on my stereo (like, all of it) over the last three years and decided I needed a change. Life is long, but twice as wide.

How was ItalY? We went to Rome and saw a bunch of people doing live confessions at night on huge TV screens near the forum (truly weird)

Have you got your other 500s yet?

daveê

Posted on: 09 October 2000 by Todd A
Mike, good to see that another forum member actually likes something other than Naim gear. I refer specifically to the praise given the Sim room. I’ve heard a couple Sim set-ups, including mixed with Naim gear (GASP!), and the results have always been fantastic. (The CDX / XPS / 52 / W5 / ProAc Response 1.5 was a special treat.) Sim is one of the few other brands I would consider owning if I were not to own Naim gear. In fact, I almost bought the Sim I-5 instead of the Nait 5, but the $1000 savings combined with the incredible Nait sound sold me on the virtues of the Nait - plus I can buy that Flat Cap 2 as more funds become available.