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Space: The Final Frontier ... a.k.a. Report from the Toronto Hi-Fi show

Posted by: Mike Hanson on 01 October 2000

I was at the Toronto stereo show yesterday. Unfortunately Naim was not in attendance, but there was some other interesting stuff. Many of the rooms sounded "ok", although nothing blew me away consistently. A few of them sent me screaming.

We listened to my friend's copy of Beethoven's Triple Concerto with Itzhack Pearlman, Yo-Yo Ma and Daniel Barenboim (with Barenboim conducting the Berlin Philharmoniker). This was actually an interesting test track, because it varied hugely from system to system. We also used some Bjork, Goldie and Mahler.

On many systems the Beethoven it was just pitiful and boring. In one case, though it sounded amazing! It was being played through new prototypes from Meadow Song Labs. These are massive ribbon systems, with a woofer cut-off at 250Hz. A custom active crossover comes with the speakers. I've never heard a symphonic piece sound so lifelike on any system! However, this recording (or at least the section we heard during the audition) had very little low frequency information. When we switched to a dance track from Bjork, the whole thing fell apart. It seems that that Boom-Boom-Boom that you get in dance music is near the crossover frequency, and the result was a terrible mess. Oh well.

There was also a Mark Levinson system with Martin Logan speakers worth about US$40K. This had an amazing sense of tonal accuracy and soundstage, but was a too relaxed to keep me interested on an ongoing basis. It wasn't terrible, but just not good in every way. At that price point, I would expect more.

Both of these systems were using alternative speakers. In the same vein, the new Quad ESLs (the big 6 panel behemoths) sounded interesting, although there seemed to be too much body to everything. It was as if I was watching a female body builder dance swan lake. Even if she does all the right moves, something seems wrong.

The best sounding conventional system was driven by Sim Audio electronics with Dynaudio Confidence 3 speakers. This system really boogied, with amazing control of the music.

I gave a very quick listen to the Chord room with "Living Voice" speakers (I'm not sure of the name). This had a wonderful ease of presentation. I was running late at that point, though, and didn't get a chance to put it through its paces. Even with this quick audition, though, I can see why Frank Abela likes Chord gear.

Another amazing system that I didn't spend enough time with had electronics from Antique Sound Labs and Reference 3A speakers. The musical connection created by this system was absolutely astonishing. The interesting thing here was the passive pre-amp, going through massive interconnects to the tube mono-block amps, then through extremely hefty speaker cables. It wouldn't surprise me if the cabling in this system cost as much as the boxes!

Throughout the day I realized that very few systems exhibited the emotional intensity and sense of pace of my Naim system. However, when I got home and sat down in from of my gear, I was struck by how "small" the sound was (even though all those elements of PRaT were present). Many of the systems that I heard filled the room with glorious music, while mine seemed confined and restricted.

I don't know whether this could be considered a "soundstage" issue, as I'm not talking about positioning information in the sound field, blah, blah, blah. I'm talking about a sense of "volume" ("size" not "loudness"). The sound from my system emanates from the between the speakers, rather than energizing the room. Because of this constriction, that permeating sense of realism is missing.

Is it too much to ask for my Naim system to do this? In case you aren't aware, my kit is CDX/82/2*Hi/250/RoydAlbion. What would I have to change to improve this deficiency? Would changing the speakers to something like Martin Logans do the trick? What about a Super-Cap to replace the two Hi-Caps? Would the XPS increase that sense of music filling the space?

In summary, I want a sense of being "in" the music, rather than listening "to" the music. When I'm at a live symphony, the music surrouds me, while also coming from in front of me. With my current system, it merely comes from in front of me. Maybe I should coat my room in tinfoil, just to increase reflections.

Any thoughts? Or am I merely coveting aspects of that American Hi-Fi sound? (Heretic! Burn him at the stake!) Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on SUNDAY 01 October 2000 at 14:02.]

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Former member
Clearly I have sh*te taste in 'speakers!

I'm not going to argue with you heavyweights - I'm just gonna stick Mozart's Requeim on and sulk a bit.

GA

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Former member
quote:

an XPS or Mana will give you more of that which makes you prefer your system even right now to all of what the head-floater systems were doing.

Your honor, my colleague is leading the witness !

Although I can hardly believe Royds can achieve a big sound as Mike now craves, I totally agree with Vuk.

Improving the support (M***) and electricity brought a sense of ease and authority that I only thought could come from large speakers. It is very apparent in the bass, which is detailed and has a wide dynamic range - you hear pianissimo bass-notes, that are still very detailed and confident and texture-full, something I could only dream of before. Also the soundstage has improved. (which is nice IMO, as long as the impact is still there.).

One more thing I am finding out is that all 2-way
systems I've heard lack something - either snap in the upper midrange, or the bass is skewed or lacking, and often also muddy-ing the music.

Omer.

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Mike Hanson
quote:
I'm not going to argue with you heavyweights

Considering your chosen moniker, I tend to view everything you say as potential troll-speak. As long as you have a name that sounds like a clown on the professional wrestling curcuit, you can expect the "heavyweights" to give your expostulations little credence. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on TUESDAY 03 October 2000 at 20:13.]

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by P
Hey Omer Simpson?

You wanna trade insults on names?

Have a word with Vuk! He rilly appreciates that kind of thing.

Regards P.

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Mike Hanson
Why is it that the new software has brought out the trolls? You know the type: doesn't give his name, pokes everyone with a stick to see if they flinch, etc. Maybe all the cute smilies have attracted a bunch of children.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Former member
Mike

Ok - I'll compromise on the name business.
Clearly with a liking for A3's I'm still suspect.

The name was a security issue - basically I love music and love my hi-fi. Amongst most of my friends and colleagues I am treated as a complete nutcase. I am also a recent Naim convert - and spending time on this forum certainly sounded like a deviant activity.

After a quick look through Naim's "lifestyle products" - Green Anorak seemed like a sensible name to me.

For Douglas Adams fans - it's a bit like the minimal research Ford Prefect did on his name before coming to Earth.

After reading this forum for a few days now - I realise that what I thought were strange and unnatural desires are fine. I'm normal.

I'm out of the closet !

Jonathan. (Phew - what a relief!)

PS - Sorry Pierre / Rico and aaa101

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Mike Hanson
Thank-you. It's appreciated by many. I'll now give your future statements more credence. BTW, I think that it may have been the A2 and not the A3 that I was auditioning. I can't recall for sure right now.

I can say one thing for sure. Most speakers that I tried were immediately stricken from my list, but the Celestions got a second try at bat. That says something for them. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Former member
Pierre,

quote:

You wanna trade insults on names?

No offense intended, do you read your E-mail ??
And I like Pierre Lapin

quote:

Omer Simpson?

Not a very good start, Homer is my role model.

Omer.


Homer (looking up at the living room ceiling):
"God, why do you mock me?"
Marge : "That's not God, that's a waffle that
Bart threw on the ceiling."
Homer (eats waffle): "Mmmm...Sacrelicious!"

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by P
Nice one Hom

Regards P.

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Greg Beatty
To Homer

quote:

One more thing I am finding out is that all 2-way systems I've heard lack something - either snap in the upper midrange, or the bass is skewed or lacking, and often also muddy-ing the music.

OK then...

...What do you suggest?

And I'm not disagreeing with you...I'm curious. Three-ways? Lothers? Quads? C'mon...let the cat out of the bag.

- GregB
Freedom is not in finding the Holy Grail but in stopping the search for it

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Martin Payne
Mike,

I certainly think you ought to try out the subwoofer option - it can be a surprising effective way to improve the clean-ness and open-ness of the mid and treble.

On the subject of speaker suggestions, I've been very impressed with Monitor Audio Studio 60's on the end of a CD2/72/HiCap/250 (i.e. the speakers are about half the total system budget including stands and cables). These speakers are very easy to drive and have a big, spacious sound. Even though they are ported they seem to be informative and controlled in the bass. They even worked pretty well on the end of a CD3 but improved dramatically when the CD2 was slotted in.

Assuming these are out of your price range I'd certainly suggest trying one of the cheaper models.

Tony,

"This statement sounds deeply suspicious to me. Music does happen at the other side of the room unless you are actually in the band."

I read Mike's comment as a wish for more 'vividness' or 'richness'. A Naim system that's working really well should do this. The CDS-II should also give a huge improvement in this area. I'd have to suspect either the speakers (with which I've no experience) or setup.

David,

"No matter what I attached it wasn't giving the scale I was after..."

I agree, the SBL is not a 'big' speaker. It's capable of a fantastic performance, but big-speaker scale is not one of it's strengths.


cheers all, Martin

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Graeme Cree
Dynaudio Contour is a fine range of speakers on the end of Naim but . . .

1. These muthers are power hungry - I had to trade my 180 for a pair of 135s to get 1.8s under control. Don't think of anything less than 250 to drive Contours (Audience range are easier).

2. They absolutely need s p a c e around them; mine are 2 feet from rear wall and one is 12" from (curtained) side wall - still sub-optimal.

3. You don't need a sub with these baybees - they know how to do bass - to the extent I have port plugs in half the time

4. Anyone that caught the Contour 3.3s on a 12" stack of Mana at Hammersmith will know what they can do - if you like the kind of music JW and the boys were playing (a little self-indulgently I thought).

Has anyone found a speaker that doesn't hit the ends stops on either St. Germain tracks (the upbeat ones) or George Duke's "It's On" ? Even the Confidence series banged up under 135s or a big Chord amp. Maybe I should have tried my CD on the DBLs at Hammersmith . . .

Don't get me wrong - I like the Dynaudio 1.8s - they can move air (and the 1.3s are wicked as well - feel the breeze from that rear port). Not as "fast" as Naim speakers but the latter are much leaner in the bass, which is why several people use subs to fill them out. But Dynaudio do have a much greater WAF because of the slim front profile and great finish.

Which all goes to show life's a compromise . . .

Thank you and goodnight.

Graeme

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Former member
Graeme,

I agree with you completely about the Dynaudios. I've had my 1.3SEs for a few weeks now, and one thing I've discovered is that they need a lot of power, and a fair amount of distance from walls. I'm using them with my 90 watt Exposure power amp, and I have the feeling that this is the minimum power that they need.

The only reservation which might rule them out for some people, is that they are a little slower than speakers from Naim, Royd and a few others. They are not actually slow, just not as lightning fast as some other speakers (a trait I don't actually like in Royd speakers).

Assuming this poses no problem, and you have the power to drive them, the Dyndaudios are extremely satisfying speakers. Personally, I think I have at last found the speakers I can live with for a long, long time.

Ross

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Former member
Graeme, Ross et al

Loudspeakers have been variously described as fast, slow and in-betweens. I guess Naim by definition would only release products that measure up in this respect. However, I am curious how loudspeaker "speed" is gauged. I have noticed that progressing up the Naim electronics ladder produces more urgency and snap to my music, which I find enthralling and invigorating. Does this mean my current loudspeakers have sufficient speed to illuminate the changes, or is it a completely different kettle of fish.

I have thought seriously about Dynaudio 1.8s, but a layer of Mana has lifted the bass performance of my Sonus Fabers considerably.

James

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Former member
Ross,

It just struck me that you and John Watson now both have systems with an LP12 at the front, Dynaudio at the back and very little Naim in-between. Perhaps the next step for you is obvious.

Vuk.

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Former member
James,

quote:
However, I am curious how loudspeaker "speed" is gauged.

I don't know about other people, but I can only rely on my subjective - and possibly misleading - impression of speed. I have noticed that very fast speakers can often also sound a little thin - Royd Albions come to mind.

quote:
Does this mean my current loudspeakers have sufficient speed to illuminate the changes, or is it a completely different kettle of fish.

Probably. If you are using Sonus Fabers, I would rate these (on my subjective scale) as being reasonably fast. However, it could also be that as you move up the Naim ladder, the increases in power are providing greater control of the speakers and are increasing the impression of speed.

Vuk,

quote:
It just struck me that you and John Watson now both have systems with an LP12 at the front, Dynaudio at the back and very little Naim in-between. Perhaps the next step for you is obvious.

Yes, I had come to that conclusion as well, so I'm growing facial hair and a beer belly, and I plan to start hanging round with elderly bikers.

Ross

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Former member
...don't forget the black T-shirt, short fuse and pony-tail (though this last trait may be a bit presumptuous before you've placed your source on Phase 7).

Vuk.

Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Former member
You're right, I was getting ahead of myself. I will try phase 1 first - the beer belly - to see whether I like it. If I do, I can move up to phase 2 (pony tail) and phase 3 (black T shirt). Of course, the beer belly must be tuned to just the right frequency, or it won't be effective ...
Posted on: 04 October 2000 by Former member
Martin Payne said:

quote:
On the subject of speaker suggestions, I've been very impressed with Monitor Audio Studio 60's on the end of a CD2/72/HiCap/250 (i.e. the speakers are about half the total system budget including stands and cables). These speakers are very easy to drive and have a big, spacious
sound. Even though they are ported they seem to be informative and controlled in the bass. They even worked pretty well on the end of a CD3 but improved dramatically when the CD2 was slotted in.

Assuming these are out of your price range I'd certainly suggest trying one of the cheaper models.


Couldn't agree more. Actually I find my Monitor Audio Studio 20SE very enjoyable (speed, detail, bass extension and control) and their imaging is pretty good, especially as width and depth are concerned. On the other hand, voices seem to come out from a rather innatural low position. However, they definitely fit my tastes. Other people could obviously disagree. Price range is below SBLs.
My NAP180 seems to drive them easily, while my old Nait2 didn't. I believe a 140 is enough. Unfortunately I can't compare to Studio 50 and 60.

Ross Blackman said:

quote:
If you are using Sonus Fabers, I would rate these (on my subjective scale) as being reasonably fast. However, it could also be that as you move up the Naim ladder, the increases in power are providing greater control of the speakers and are increasing the impression of speed.

I am a SF fan, but I find some SF speakers rather slow (especially Concerto Grand Piano), with deep but rather uncontrolled bass. I agree that powerful amps help, in this case. I find top SF speakers different instead. One of the best speaker I heard in a Naim system was Guarnieri Homage, which in Italy is approx 4,000 UKP. Imaging was HUGE, and sound very warm, detailed and, most of all, 'natural'.

Mike, I really wish you good luck in the search of the speakers that fit you (and your room!!). From my experience, I know it can be a pain.

Stefano

Posted on: 08 October 2000 by Former member
DA said

"If CDS 2/52/135s can't get what you want out of the albions then maybe nothing will."

Errrm

Dave, isn't it time you just went the whole hog with active NAP500s and DBLs. Anything else is just prolonging the misery!

Cliff
Trainee Perl Hacker

Posted on: 08 October 2000 by Former member
Greg,

(Sorry for delay, been away)

quote:

To Homer

[QUOTE]

One more thing I am finding out is that all 2-way systems I've heard lack something - either snap in the upper midrange, or the bass is skewed or lacking, and often also muddy-ing the music.


OK then...

...What do you suggest?

And I'm not disagreeing with you...I'm curious. Three-ways? Lothers? Quads? C'mon...let the cat out of the bag.


[/QUOTE]

The cat is dead, I'm afraid. I haven't heard lowthers, I was not shocked by ESL 63's, but when I hear 3-ways, even quite cheap ones, they solve these problems, even if they don't image worse and sound less coherent in a sense.

Having heard more expensive 3-ways that almost did it to me (Kabers), I'm looking for either an expensive 3-way that will be exactly what I want (and I don't mean Naim's, too expensive) - I wish I could listen to Isobariks, or a 2-way that will break the laws. I still have to listen longer to SBL, mind...

Omer.

Posted on: 08 October 2000 by David Antonelli
Cliff,

Maybe a 500 will be in the cards at some stage. I think when the CDS2 came out I couldn't afford it so I decided I didn't need one. Then when some money came my way I bought it and wondered why i waited so long. I've got some ACT 2s coming in february and after that 135s or a 500 are the only upgrades left apart from a Nat 01. I'm still not sold on naim speakers.

As for the 500, I just bought a bunch of LeRoy Chambertin, so maybe that's what's been causing teh delays. I was starting to feel I was spending a disproportionate amount of my disposable income on my stereo (like, all of it) over the last three years and decided I needed a change. Life is long, but twice as wide.

How was ItalY? We went to Rome and saw a bunch of people doing live confessions at night on huge TV screens near the forum (truly weird)

Have you got your other 500s yet?

daveê

Posted on: 09 October 2000 by Todd A
Mike, good to see that another forum member actually likes something other than Naim gear. I refer specifically to the praise given the Sim room. I’ve heard a couple Sim set-ups, including mixed with Naim gear (GASP!), and the results have always been fantastic. (The CDX / XPS / 52 / W5 / ProAc Response 1.5 was a special treat.) Sim is one of the few other brands I would consider owning if I were not to own Naim gear. In fact, I almost bought the Sim I-5 instead of the Nait 5, but the $1000 savings combined with the incredible Nait sound sold me on the virtues of the Nait - plus I can buy that Flat Cap 2 as more funds become available.
Posted on: 09 October 2000 by Former member
Todd,

Good to hear that you like Simaudio gear too. I think had you purchased the Sim I-5, you would probably not be disappointed with it being fed a Naim source. I had owned the I-5 prior to buying into Naim, and I have to say that it works extremely well with the CD5, and the CD5 is by far the best CD player I've heard in it's price range. Of the players I auditioned, I would say only the Linn Ikemi, Naim's higher end players and Simaudio's own Moon Eclipse were a smidgen better overall. Okay, maybe the CDX/XPS was more than just a smidgen better, but unfortunately, I'm not a smidgen richer.
Although the Nait 5/I-5 purchasing decision was not available to me, since the Nait 5 only came out this year, I think I might still have gone with the I-5, because it has more power, and able to drive a wider range of loudspeakers, and in Canada, the price differential between an I-5 and Nait 5 is much less than $1000. I purchased my I-5 new for about Cdn$2550 which is about US$1700. Almost makes up for having to live with a miserable 67 cent buck.