I was at the Toronto stereo show yesterday. Unfortunately Naim was not in attendance, but there was some other interesting stuff. Many of the rooms sounded "ok", although nothing blew me away consistently. A few of them sent me screaming.
We listened to my friend's copy of Beethoven's Triple Concerto with Itzhack Pearlman, Yo-Yo Ma and Daniel Barenboim (with Barenboim conducting the Berlin Philharmoniker). This was actually an interesting test track, because it varied hugely from system to system. We also used some Bjork, Goldie and Mahler.
On many systems the Beethoven it was just pitiful and boring. In one case, though it sounded amazing! It was being played through new prototypes from Meadow Song Labs. These are massive ribbon systems, with a woofer cut-off at 250Hz. A custom active crossover comes with the speakers. I've never heard a symphonic piece sound so lifelike on any system! However, this recording (or at least the section we heard during the audition) had very little low frequency information. When we switched to a dance track from Bjork, the whole thing fell apart. It seems that that Boom-Boom-Boom that you get in dance music is near the crossover frequency, and the result was a terrible mess. Oh well.
There was also a Mark Levinson system with Martin Logan speakers worth about US$40K. This had an amazing sense of tonal accuracy and soundstage, but was a too relaxed to keep me interested on an ongoing basis. It wasn't terrible, but just not good in every way. At that price point, I would expect more.
Both of these systems were using alternative speakers. In the same vein, the new Quad ESLs (the big 6 panel behemoths) sounded interesting, although there seemed to be too much body to everything. It was as if I was watching a female body builder dance swan lake. Even if she does all the right moves, something seems wrong.
The best sounding conventional system was driven by Sim Audio electronics with Dynaudio Confidence 3 speakers. This system really boogied, with amazing control of the music.
I gave a very quick listen to the Chord room with "Living Voice" speakers (I'm not sure of the name). This had a wonderful ease of presentation. I was running late at that point, though, and didn't get a chance to put it through its paces. Even with this quick audition, though, I can see why Frank Abela likes Chord gear.
Another amazing system that I didn't spend enough time with had electronics from Antique Sound Labs and Reference 3A speakers. The musical connection created by this system was absolutely astonishing. The interesting thing here was the passive pre-amp, going through massive interconnects to the tube mono-block amps, then through extremely hefty speaker cables. It wouldn't surprise me if the cabling in this system cost as much as the boxes!
Throughout the day I realized that very few systems exhibited the emotional intensity and sense of pace of my Naim system. However, when I got home and sat down in from of my gear, I was struck by how "small" the sound was (even though all those elements of PRaT were present). Many of the systems that I heard filled the room with glorious music, while mine seemed confined and restricted.
I don't know whether this could be considered a "soundstage" issue, as I'm not talking about positioning information in the sound field, blah, blah, blah. I'm talking about a sense of "volume" ("size" not "loudness"). The sound from my system emanates from the between the speakers, rather than energizing the room. Because of this constriction, that permeating sense of realism is missing.
Is it too much to ask for my Naim system to do this? In case you aren't aware, my kit is CDX/82/2*Hi/250/RoydAlbion. What would I have to change to improve this deficiency? Would changing the speakers to something like Martin Logans do the trick? What about a Super-Cap to replace the two Hi-Caps? Would the XPS increase that sense of music filling the space?
In summary, I want a sense of being "in" the music, rather than listening "to" the music. When I'm at a live symphony, the music surrouds me, while also coming from in front of me. With my current system, it merely comes from in front of me. Maybe I should coat my room in tinfoil, just to increase reflections. 
Any thoughts? Or am I merely coveting aspects of that American Hi-Fi sound? (Heretic! Burn him at the stake!) Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on SUNDAY 01 October 2000 at 14:02.]
Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Martin Payne
Mike,
I certainly think you ought to try out the subwoofer option - it can be a surprising effective way to improve the clean-ness and open-ness of the mid and treble.
On the subject of speaker suggestions, I've been very impressed with Monitor Audio Studio 60's on the end of a CD2/72/HiCap/250 (i.e. the speakers are about half the total system budget including stands and cables). These speakers are very easy to drive and have a big, spacious sound. Even though they are ported they seem to be informative and controlled in the bass. They even worked pretty well on the end of a CD3 but improved dramatically when the CD2 was slotted in.
Assuming these are out of your price range I'd certainly suggest trying one of the cheaper models.
Tony,
"This statement sounds deeply suspicious to me. Music does happen at the other side of the room unless you are actually in the band."
I read Mike's comment as a wish for more 'vividness' or 'richness'. A Naim system that's working really well should do this. The CDS-II should also give a huge improvement in this area. I'd have to suspect either the speakers (with which I've no experience) or setup.
David,
"No matter what I attached it wasn't giving the scale I was after..."
I agree, the SBL is not a 'big' speaker. It's capable of a fantastic performance, but big-speaker scale is not one of it's strengths.
cheers all, Martin
Posted on: 03 October 2000 by Graeme Cree
Dynaudio Contour is a fine range of speakers on the end of Naim but . . .
1. These muthers are power hungry - I had to trade my 180 for a pair of 135s to get 1.8s under control. Don't think of anything less than 250 to drive Contours (Audience range are easier).
2. They absolutely need s p a c e around them; mine are 2 feet from rear wall and one is 12" from (curtained) side wall - still sub-optimal.
3. You don't need a sub with these baybees - they know how to do bass - to the extent I have port plugs in half the time
4. Anyone that caught the Contour 3.3s on a 12" stack of Mana at Hammersmith will know what they can do - if you like the kind of music JW and the boys were playing (a little self-indulgently I thought).
Has anyone found a speaker that doesn't hit the ends stops on either St. Germain tracks (the upbeat ones) or George Duke's "It's On" ? Even the Confidence series banged up under 135s or a big Chord amp. Maybe I should have tried my CD on the DBLs at Hammersmith . . .
Don't get me wrong - I like the Dynaudio 1.8s - they can move air (and the 1.3s are wicked as well - feel the breeze from that rear port). Not as "fast" as Naim speakers but the latter are much leaner in the bass, which is why several people use subs to fill them out. But Dynaudio do have a much greater WAF because of the slim front profile and great finish.
Which all goes to show life's a compromise . . .
Thank you and goodnight.
Graeme
Posted on: 04 October 2000 by Former member
Martin Payne said:
quote:
On the subject of speaker suggestions, I've been very impressed with Monitor Audio Studio 60's on the end of a CD2/72/HiCap/250 (i.e. the speakers are about half the total system budget including stands and cables). These speakers are very easy to drive and have a big, spacious
sound. Even though they are ported they seem to be informative and controlled in the bass. They even worked pretty well on the end of a CD3 but improved dramatically when the CD2 was slotted in.Assuming these are out of your price range I'd certainly suggest trying one of the cheaper models.
Couldn't agree more. Actually I find my Monitor Audio Studio 20SE very enjoyable (speed, detail, bass extension and control) and their imaging is pretty good, especially as width and depth are concerned. On the other hand, voices seem to come out from a rather innatural low position. However, they definitely fit my tastes. Other people could obviously disagree. Price range is below SBLs.
My NAP180 seems to drive them easily, while my old Nait2 didn't. I believe a 140 is enough. Unfortunately I can't compare to Studio 50 and 60.
Ross Blackman said:
quote:
If you are using Sonus Fabers, I would rate these (on my subjective scale) as being reasonably fast. However, it could also be that as you move up the Naim ladder, the increases in power are providing greater control of the speakers and are increasing the impression of speed.
I am a SF fan, but I find some SF speakers rather slow (especially Concerto Grand Piano), with deep but rather uncontrolled bass. I agree that powerful amps help, in this case. I find top SF speakers different instead. One of the best speaker I heard in a Naim system was Guarnieri Homage, which in Italy is approx 4,000 UKP. Imaging was HUGE, and sound very warm, detailed and, most of all, 'natural'.
Mike, I really wish you good luck in the search of the speakers that fit you (and your room!!). From my experience, I know it can be a pain.
Stefano