What is normal?

JonR - What do you mean?
I have become cynical about religion and have concluded that the church has lost interest in people. It appears to me to be blinkered and not interested in peoples own spirituality.
If you write me off that easily for not conforming to a religious belief, then that is a fine illustration of exactly that.
However, "organised hatred" is in retrospect a little strong, but it seems to be going along those lines.
I'm quite happy to discuss it, and I wouldn't think any the less of you for having a different view. Honest.

Does motivation actually matter?

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...the ability to exercise such conscious, intentional control is actually quite limited, so that most of moment-to-moment psychological life must occur through nonconscious means if it is to occur at all

...the authors conclude that these various nonconscious mental systems perform the lion's share of the self-regulatory burden, beneficently keeping the individual grounded in his or her current environment.

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From The unbearable automaticity of being.

I would go several steps further than Rasher,historicaly "Religions" have just been a tool of control mainly by the hierarchy to ensure that the minions do their bidding with out faulter, and I'm not just thinking about the situation in this country, it happens with all creeds and cultures from witch docters to arch bishops/popes. There have been more innocent people down the ages that have been maimed and killed in the name of religions than for any other subject. the recent sights and memorys of Military Ministers blessing soldiers before battle,is nothing short of a mockery and makes me feel phyisically sick.I would not deny others their right to choose their own stick of support,but for me it's always been something my Grandfather said to me when I was a small kid and has remained the one thing that I have tried to live my life by ,and that is, "if you can't do someone a good turn ,then don't do them a bad one", very simplistic but has always worked for me
Arggggggggggggg, sorry Ive just choked on my halo
oldie.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rasher:
JonR - What do you mean?
I have become cynical about religion and have concluded that the church has lost interest in people. It appears to me to be blinkered and not interested in peoples own spirituality.
If you write me off that easily for not conforming to a religious belief, then that is a fine illustration of exactly that.
However, "organised hatred" is in retrospect a little strong, but it seems to be going along those lines.
I'm quite happy to discuss it, and I wouldn't think any the less of you for having a different view. Honest.

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Rasher,

Thanks for your reply. No, I don't for a moment write you off and I apologise if my post gave the opposite impression. I had meant for my post to be taken only half-seriously but it seems I have mislaid my humour-supply at the crucial moment!

Far from writing you off, I acknowledge you for your refusal to conform and can certainly understand your cynicism about religion, much of which I do share. In ideal world religion should transcend race but instead is, or has been, often used as a tool to drive a wedge between different communities leading to the sort of violence and war we have far too used to seeing on TV nowadays, eg. the Balkans, Northern Ireland, Israel, etc.

As a Jew I often find myself at odds with the prevailing views of the wider community, particularly in their attitude to the Palestinians and Arabs in general. But then again, Israel, our supposed 'spiritual home', is unique in that its very identity is derived from religion, ie. it is known as the Jewish State. With that in mind, it makes me positively cringe with disgust at some of the acts it perpetrates in the West Bank and Gaza.

I've probably opened a huge can of worms here, but I hope my post goes some way towards explaining my stance on the issue.

jon

I am not a Jew. But as a gentile who has come very close to conversion, having Torah hashkafah (sic) is the central and most integral part of Judaism. This means a Torah outlook, or a Jewish way of thinking or analysing (I'm trying not to get bogged down in fine distinctions). The adoption of Judaism would require from me more than mere formality or ritual, but would require me to become a functioning part of a community and, depending on the level of observance I choose to practice, to show the relevant amount of rigour in the application of law to my life.

So, what is most important to me about a religion is to be found in the way that it affects my deeds, rather than (merely?) my beliefs.

Also, in my experience, most people are referring to frequency when they use the word "normal".

Deane

"The problem is often one of misperception on the outside and misjudgment on the inside."
Nicely put Tom.
"Can of worms" Jon? Oh yes, and the lid is now well and truly off.
I didn't want to get my children Christened, but my wife, being a non-practicing but believing good Roman Catholic girl, did. Fair enough. I spent a few evenings discussing with the priest the ins-and-outs of how the church represents the way we live our lives and the way we can practice our own spiritual beliefs. I have a friend - my best friend - who is a devout Roman Catholic, to the point of being, IMO, blinded to reality. Neither of them can allow my spiritual beliefs, although they both agree that they have merit. The priest will go so far with me, but then at the very end says "yes, it's a shame, but that isn't recognised in the teachings of Christ, and therefore I have to draw the line, even though, morally I agree with you".
Huh?
There seems to be nowhere to go sometimes.
You are probably wondering what I'm talking about here, but it is only that a concept of carrying on somewhere after this life may exist in a purely spiritual dimension, but I'm not allowed there because I am not a Catholic. End of discussion. Final.. No appeals allowed. Join or fuck off basically.
So you say "that's OK, join the C of E". But it isn't OK. It's full of Happy-Clappy fundamentalists who believe the earth was created during 7 days, and geology is just an illusion to make the earth seem old.
Huh? Are you mad?
Not just that, but a Brighton Evangelical church has been blacklisted by the local council for use of their facilities, because they are openly racist and homophobic.
My wife & kids this week are in Northern Ireland, and we don't need to discuss the disgusting behaviour against those poor primary school children, just because they were Catholic using a road to get to school through a Protestant estate.
It sickens me.
Excuse me if I write it off as an option.
Fortunately, I haven't written off the fact that people have good within them, and I don't think it hurts to do a little digging sometimes, because it's nearly always just there under the surface just where you expect it to be.
I'm off to bed now.
I'm not really a bad person, and I'm not quite as cynical as my good friend Oldie. , (even though he would give you the shirt off his back).

[This message was edited by Rasher on Tue 26 October 2004 at 1:31.]

What happens after I die is not very important to me. Sometimes it is an interesting speculation, but never more than that.

What I think passes through my mind like a wind. What I do stays in the world and has repercussions forever. I don't give a damn if Bertie Russel is (was?) right and I rot once I am dead.

I don't mind religious fundamentalism. I do mind people, including religous fundamentalists, doing harm.

Deane

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I don't mind religious fundamentalism. I do mind people, including religous fundamentalists, doing harm.

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I agree except that religious fundamentalism is now (and also in the past) a breeding ground for doing much harm.

I'm certain that the Prophet Mohammed as well as Jesus are currently spinning in their resting places right now (and in history) as to the harm being inflicted upon the world supposedly in their respective names.

Regards,

Steve.

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Originally posted by Steven Toy:

I agree except that religious fundamentalism is now (and also in the past) a breeding ground for doing much harm.

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I cannot refute that statement but I suggest that religion informs the vision and ethical makeup of most western society far less than it did even fifty years ago. So, while religious fundamentalism might be a breeding ground for the doing of harm, it is not as large a breeding ground as a society that worships the individual and his or her rights, without holding the individual to a clear duty toward others in return for those rights.

Deane

As I said I went on the Aplha course once and once only - to be honest it probably wasn't a good time to go, being in the middle of a house move and a separation, but I did find the whole thing a little 'we're the best and nothing else comes near/matters'. Not my cup of tea at all.

I would agree with Mekon that the unconscious has much to do with our 'motivation'.

Tom,
I'm not sure that I'm intelligent enough to embark on a in depth discussion regarding religion as It has defeated many better men than I, down the ages, I only know what is in my mind and I truely believe that there is good in all people[ If I didn't I wouldn't have spent most of my life trying to help others,some would call it interfering, mostly unsuccessfully,] but I dont think that the good that people do has to be banded up in a parcel and given a name. It matters not to me wether you collectively name it R.C. C.of E. OR T&G/ UNISON just as long as people try to live their lives preferably without hurting one another, and hopefully actively trying to help one another .I don't wish to be presumptious here but I don't think that there is much of a gap, if any, from what I read in your posts between either of us we just put a differant label on our actions and thoughts, you and others in the name of your Gods me in the name of, well, as I can't think of anything else to call it, I suppose, humanity.I wouldnt deny anyone their rights to believe in what ever they chose to believe in , but from what I've seen going on around the globe,in the name of organised Religion it's just not for me.Just one last point for which I apologize beforhand, as It's a "bit below the belt" Up untill a couple of years ago, until it was exposed by Mark Thomas on his Channel 4 program the Church of England carried in it's Shares portfollio a massive investment in the shares of "Vickers" a armaments manufacter, Warships, Tanks,Heavy and self propelled Guns, etc etc
Not a very good example of love thy fellow man.

oldie who's probably to cynical for his own good.

Yup. I agree with all that.
Just goes to illustrate that we are all one world community of individuals trying to do our own thing together. Can't understand why it causes so much trouble.
Like Deane, I too am not actively wondering about where we go after this, but when placed in situation that required me to take seriously what I was having to delare to the church, I stopped to think. Maybe most people just say "yes, yes, yes" at Christenings and weddings without thinking, but I have to have honest and respect those that are asking. It's just me I guess.
It made me laugh when one of my friends said "For Chissakes - just say yes to everything and get over it".

OK Tom,
All points duly noted ,and,no, I don't want to get you started there's already enough angst about, without me aggravating a fellow traveler so to speak. To paraphrase one from your "Book" " There are many paths that lead to the common good, it matters not, which one you take"
Hows that for a bit of working class Philosophy
oldie.

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Originally posted by oldie:
" There are many paths that lead to the common good, it matters not, which one you take"

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It may not matter to you and I, but to some, unfortunately, it does. (That is a collective "you & I" BTW).
Is that "common good" or "The common good"? Round and round we go again....

Phew Tom that's a lot of music - very impressive

From Tom's collection, I can't help but notice the age old problem of how to list things.
Fripp & whoever, are listed under Fripp, except when it comes to Brian Eno - where Fripp & Eno goes under Eno.
I have the same problem.

Is that normal?

Oh no, I'm confused again

No JonR
"Confused" was the other thread,
I think
oldie.

Hmmm...

You do of course realise this is a potentially cataclysmic situation....??

jon

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So, while religious fundamentalism might be a breeding ground for the doing of harm, it is not as large a breeding ground as a society that worships the individual and his or her rights, without holding the individual to a clear duty toward others in return for those rights.

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With individual freedom comes responsibility.

When a Nanny State removes individual freedom it creates collective irresponsibility.

Regards,

Steve.

Whilst I try to influence the behaviour of others on occasions I can only take responsibility for my own actions.

Regards,

Steve.

Lock up the axe-wielding maniac.

As for the taxi driver he's only acting anti-socially if his driving does actually result in an accident.

Regards,

Steve.

Who says he's acting recklessly?

Regards,

Steve.

You can't tar all axe-wielding maniacs with the same brush.

Just because someone is wielding an axe, it doesn't mean they will cause you any harm.