Dealer Satisfaction - Poll results
Posted by: Don Atkinson on 17 May 2003
Posted on: 18 May 2003 by hi fi fo fum
I think Naim uses the replie cards that come in the box with "NEW" Naim gear to see if the dealers are doing our jobs well or not
You have 156 replies and of this 71% say that Naim needs to take action fast...I bet all of that 71% go to Naim dealers and want to hear the gear only to go and buy it used....if fact my study has told me that most Naim users don't even use this forum....
I think you poll sucks and that you just like to shoot your mouth off.
If you have away to make all of Naims dealer perfect please tell them in fact what not get a job there ,( then you can get all your gear for free)
I bet that the only reason for doing this polling is that can't find a dealer to give you the Naim gear for 50% off and this makes you mad....
Now that that is said.....
Paul good morning, I think this guy really wants a great deal on some gear is there any chance of giving him your job or maybe Dougs so he can do it better ? or maybe let him play in the sound room for a day ? I think a dealer or two really must of taken him ....please send him a Naim cap ,you can charge it to me .Thanks
You have 156 replies and of this 71% say that Naim needs to take action fast...I bet all of that 71% go to Naim dealers and want to hear the gear only to go and buy it used....if fact my study has told me that most Naim users don't even use this forum....
I think you poll sucks and that you just like to shoot your mouth off.
If you have away to make all of Naims dealer perfect please tell them in fact what not get a job there ,( then you can get all your gear for free)
I bet that the only reason for doing this polling is that can't find a dealer to give you the Naim gear for 50% off and this makes you mad....
Now that that is said.....
Paul good morning, I think this guy really wants a great deal on some gear is there any chance of giving him your job or maybe Dougs so he can do it better ? or maybe let him play in the sound room for a day ? I think a dealer or two really must of taken him ....please send him a Naim cap ,you can charge it to me .Thanks
Posted on: 18 May 2003 by Alex S.
<< I think Naim uses the replie cards that come in the box with "NEW" Naim gear to see if the dealers are doing our jobs well or not >>
That's an opinion poll of about five people then.
Alex
That's an opinion poll of about five people then.
Alex
Posted on: 19 May 2003 by hi fi fo fum
quote:
Originally posted by Alex S.:
<< I think Naim uses the replie cards that come in the box with "NEW" Naim gear to see if the dealers are doing our jobs well or not >>
That's an opinion poll of about five people then.
Alex
If there was only 156 people who bought Naim gear world wide there would be a bigger problem.
The 156 is a number of forum users who voted and his poll claims 71 % are unhappy...I have sold many systems to people who will not ever use this forum....but do fill out the cards and I'm sure every other dealer will tell you the same.
The only ones who like to complain are the ones who want the biggest discount, this is just the way it is.
Ask your self the question
what really pisses you off about any Naim dealer?
ANSWER
you can't get the deal you want.
there is just not enought margin to give away if you want to keep the doors open, this is the same for Naim, Rega, Creek, Cyrus, Arcam, (well if the dealer buys end of lines you get more off)
Even Richard Sound they get you to think you are saving but they are still making margin.
Retailers are doing the job to make a profit and to make money, why do you go to work, you get paid right so lets say on pay day your boss comes to you and said he want you to give a dicount on your hourly pay , lets say 15% you would freek out and say no way...so why can't the dealers do the same.
Posted on: 19 May 2003 by Mekon
If that is what dealers think customers want out of a dealer, I think we've found the reason there is a problem.
If I get good service, the thought of haggling doesn't enter my head. I am sure that I am not alone in spending more that I intend to when I want to reward good service.
If I get good service, the thought of haggling doesn't enter my head. I am sure that I am not alone in spending more that I intend to when I want to reward good service.
Posted on: 19 May 2003 by oldie
Hi,
hi fi fo fum,
I think that you have just explaned in the most
succinct way, and I could not begin to improve on what you have stated even if I wished to, why the majority of those people taking part in the poll, thought that Naim needed to improve its dealer network,these are the attitudes that have caused so many of the compants in the first place,a real shot in the foot if ever there was one.
Mekon
Did you get it done in time ?
Oldie.
hi fi fo fum,
I think that you have just explaned in the most
succinct way, and I could not begin to improve on what you have stated even if I wished to, why the majority of those people taking part in the poll, thought that Naim needed to improve its dealer network,these are the attitudes that have caused so many of the compants in the first place,a real shot in the foot if ever there was one.
Mekon
Did you get it done in time ?
Oldie.
Posted on: 19 May 2003 by Mekon
He now wants it by wednesday, so I took the weekend off, hence it isn't yet done. It will be, it will be, it will be...
Posted on: 19 May 2003 by Matthew T
hi fi fo fum
Surely if a dealer is taking a several thousands pounds or dollars off someone and making a 20-40% (?) cut then it is perfectly reasonable to expect some very special service. If this is not forthcoming then it is going to reflect pretty badly on the brands that that dealer stocks. If that dealer gives exemplary service then that is wonderful but is also necessary. If you want to have somebody return to spend the next several thousand you need to make sure they are completely happy.
As someone who works in a sector where excellenced is assumed I am much happier receiving criticism before the clients disappear then after, if a dealer want to sell high end hifi then they should be ready to offer high end service and be ready to improve there service at every opportunity.
If you don't like criticism then I suggest you get out of the service industry!
Matthew
Surely if a dealer is taking a several thousands pounds or dollars off someone and making a 20-40% (?) cut then it is perfectly reasonable to expect some very special service. If this is not forthcoming then it is going to reflect pretty badly on the brands that that dealer stocks. If that dealer gives exemplary service then that is wonderful but is also necessary. If you want to have somebody return to spend the next several thousand you need to make sure they are completely happy.
As someone who works in a sector where excellenced is assumed I am much happier receiving criticism before the clients disappear then after, if a dealer want to sell high end hifi then they should be ready to offer high end service and be ready to improve there service at every opportunity.
If you don't like criticism then I suggest you get out of the service industry!
Matthew
Posted on: 19 May 2003 by Doug Graham
Interesting poll results but how relevant is open to interpretation. As you all know you can do anything with stats!.Especially with the sample used. Naim have a policy of on-going training with our dealer network and our 2 UK reps police this , in our opinion , very well. However, you must realise that the majority of Naim dealers turnoveris NOT Naim products. Therefore, if people are not happy with in shop standards then this is really not only a Naim problem but an industry one.
Naim are committed to improve dealer/customer service but it's a bit tough on us to be held responsible for how dealers handle THEIR customer service.
As always, we appreciate the feed back.
later
Doug
Naim are committed to improve dealer/customer service but it's a bit tough on us to be held responsible for how dealers handle THEIR customer service.
As always, we appreciate the feed back.
later
Doug
Posted on: 19 May 2003 by Don Atkinson
Dear Hi Fi FoFum.
Good morning. This could take a little time.....
Of the 156 votes, 75% said that the level of service they enjoyed from Naim dealers was exceptional or good. 25% said it was mediocre or awful. Only 27 or so votes have been cast so far about whether Naim should do anything about it. 70% of these 27 think Naim should do something fast but that’s only 19 people. I'm sure Naim will note this, but I can't see them making sea-changes.
You couldn't be further from the mark in thinking I can't get the deal I want. And the deals I want, and get, NEVER (let me repeat that so you can't possibly misunderstand this bit, NEVER) involve a discount. For the past fifteen years or so, I have only ever bought new Naim/Linn from an appointed dealer, and with only one exception, paid the full price; Westwood & Mason (LP12/Itok/Troika/Valhalla); Newbury Audio (Ekos/Arkiv/72/Karik); Grahams (cds1; Lingo; Linto) and in the case of the cds2 upgrade only, direct from Naim. I have bought pieces of second-hand kit. Some of it from Grahams (82) and some from private sources (52; s'cap; 135s, Wilson Watt/Puppies). I wouldn't ask for a discount and I wouldn't want a discount. I expect, and want to pay the full asking price and in return I expect and get the full service and support that is part of the Naim deal. I had only one 'difficult' experience, from which I learned a lot.
As for having a dealer demo, then buying second-hand......difficult. Your principle is absolutely correct. But how do you cope with demonstrating a cds2/52/135s/B&W802 (dealer's choice) in order to listen to the speakers. Does this then deny me all opportunity to buy a 52 or 135s second hand? I also auditioned Wilson Witts a few years back, on the end of a cds2/82/250. It couldn't cope so the dealer slotted in a Krell FPB300. Magic, brought the whole show to life. I actually preferred the Watts, auditioned elsewhere privately, and bought them. Am I now banned from buying an FPB300 second-hand?
Thanks for the offer of a Naim 'cap, but under the circumstances it would be inappropriate to accept. Please see my final paragraph.
Now for the guts of it.
I think you poll sucks and that you just like to shoot your mouth off.
Regarding the first part of your allegation. I don't agree with you, but you have a right to your opinion.
The second part, regrettably, is your ill-informed opinion. Allow me to rectify this matter.
I posted the poll for a very valid reason. Naim dealers had recently come in for criticism on this forum. Part of that criticism was due to poor service from some dealers. Not discounting.....just poor service. Both Naim and some of their dealers made it clear that retail price maintenance was tied-in to a proper dealer service. If you pay the full price and don't get the service, you are entitled to be critical (and in my opinion, compensation). I would welcome your view on this matter along with the views of other dealers. I think this is the guts of the matter. BTW, I am talking about the service that Naim require their dealers to provide when selling Naim equipment. The same dealer could well offer different levels of service for other products. I would expect levels of politeness to be common across the whole product range.
Elsewhere, I have floated the idea of dealers charging by the hour for their services. My view is that if the product or service is worthwhile, people will pay for it. I would welcome your view on this matter also.
In the light of the response to my first poll, I felt that with 25% of respondents reporting mediocrity/awful that Naim might think it worthwhile reminding their dealers of their service obligations. I accept that you don't agree with me on this point. The numbers are somewhat small.
Naim survive because they have a great product, which is properly supported by exceptional/good dealers. It is my view that a few dealers are abusing their position by not providing the proper service and support. My poll tends to support this view. Again your views are welcome.
Paul S will chose himself whether to take note of this poll or to ignore it. I haven't asked him to comment and I wouldn't expect him to do so. (PS after drafting this reply, I see that Doug Graham has posted)
I consider your comments, whilst no doubt heartfelt, to be ill informed and offensive. I consider an apology to be appropriate.
Cheers
Don
[This message was edited by Don Atkinson on MONDAY 19 May 2003 at 14:24.]
[This message was edited by Don Atkinson on MONDAY 19 May 2003 at 14:27.]
Good morning. This could take a little time.....
Of the 156 votes, 75% said that the level of service they enjoyed from Naim dealers was exceptional or good. 25% said it was mediocre or awful. Only 27 or so votes have been cast so far about whether Naim should do anything about it. 70% of these 27 think Naim should do something fast but that’s only 19 people. I'm sure Naim will note this, but I can't see them making sea-changes.
You couldn't be further from the mark in thinking I can't get the deal I want. And the deals I want, and get, NEVER (let me repeat that so you can't possibly misunderstand this bit, NEVER) involve a discount. For the past fifteen years or so, I have only ever bought new Naim/Linn from an appointed dealer, and with only one exception, paid the full price; Westwood & Mason (LP12/Itok/Troika/Valhalla); Newbury Audio (Ekos/Arkiv/72/Karik); Grahams (cds1; Lingo; Linto) and in the case of the cds2 upgrade only, direct from Naim. I have bought pieces of second-hand kit. Some of it from Grahams (82) and some from private sources (52; s'cap; 135s, Wilson Watt/Puppies). I wouldn't ask for a discount and I wouldn't want a discount. I expect, and want to pay the full asking price and in return I expect and get the full service and support that is part of the Naim deal. I had only one 'difficult' experience, from which I learned a lot.
As for having a dealer demo, then buying second-hand......difficult. Your principle is absolutely correct. But how do you cope with demonstrating a cds2/52/135s/B&W802 (dealer's choice) in order to listen to the speakers. Does this then deny me all opportunity to buy a 52 or 135s second hand? I also auditioned Wilson Witts a few years back, on the end of a cds2/82/250. It couldn't cope so the dealer slotted in a Krell FPB300. Magic, brought the whole show to life. I actually preferred the Watts, auditioned elsewhere privately, and bought them. Am I now banned from buying an FPB300 second-hand?
Thanks for the offer of a Naim 'cap, but under the circumstances it would be inappropriate to accept. Please see my final paragraph.
Now for the guts of it.
I think you poll sucks and that you just like to shoot your mouth off.
Regarding the first part of your allegation. I don't agree with you, but you have a right to your opinion.
The second part, regrettably, is your ill-informed opinion. Allow me to rectify this matter.
I posted the poll for a very valid reason. Naim dealers had recently come in for criticism on this forum. Part of that criticism was due to poor service from some dealers. Not discounting.....just poor service. Both Naim and some of their dealers made it clear that retail price maintenance was tied-in to a proper dealer service. If you pay the full price and don't get the service, you are entitled to be critical (and in my opinion, compensation). I would welcome your view on this matter along with the views of other dealers. I think this is the guts of the matter. BTW, I am talking about the service that Naim require their dealers to provide when selling Naim equipment. The same dealer could well offer different levels of service for other products. I would expect levels of politeness to be common across the whole product range.
Elsewhere, I have floated the idea of dealers charging by the hour for their services. My view is that if the product or service is worthwhile, people will pay for it. I would welcome your view on this matter also.
In the light of the response to my first poll, I felt that with 25% of respondents reporting mediocrity/awful that Naim might think it worthwhile reminding their dealers of their service obligations. I accept that you don't agree with me on this point. The numbers are somewhat small.
Naim survive because they have a great product, which is properly supported by exceptional/good dealers. It is my view that a few dealers are abusing their position by not providing the proper service and support. My poll tends to support this view. Again your views are welcome.
Paul S will chose himself whether to take note of this poll or to ignore it. I haven't asked him to comment and I wouldn't expect him to do so. (PS after drafting this reply, I see that Doug Graham has posted)
I consider your comments, whilst no doubt heartfelt, to be ill informed and offensive. I consider an apology to be appropriate.
Cheers
Don
[This message was edited by Don Atkinson on MONDAY 19 May 2003 at 14:24.]
[This message was edited by Don Atkinson on MONDAY 19 May 2003 at 14:27.]
Posted on: 19 May 2003 by Doug Graham
It should be noted that we don't sell direct from the factory. We have dealers. There may have been the occasional "exceptional circumstance" where we have supplied a Burndy or such like.
Later
Doug
Later
Doug
Posted on: 19 May 2003 by Don Atkinson
It should be noted that we don't sell direct from the factory. We have dealers.
The post above was long enough, so some deatils were sacrificed.
The cds2 upgrade offer, last year, was what I had in mind. It was linked to unusual circumstances. Normally, you sent your cds1 via your dealer or direct to Naim via a courier. Back came a new cds2 via your dealer or courier. Because I live quite close I asked to deliver and collect in person. If I hadn't made this reference to the cds2 clear, Grahams could have claimed that I hadn't made all my 'new' puchases through them.
FWIW, a LONG time ago Naim used to make direct sales, although it was probably only occasionally. Thats where I got my first ( and it was new) LP12. Its also where I got my previously used hicap, 250, and Isobariks.
But the point Doug makes is correct, obviously.......and I don't have any 'special' links or 'under-the-counter' deals..........
Hope nobody feels mis-led
Cheers
Don
The post above was long enough, so some deatils were sacrificed.
The cds2 upgrade offer, last year, was what I had in mind. It was linked to unusual circumstances. Normally, you sent your cds1 via your dealer or direct to Naim via a courier. Back came a new cds2 via your dealer or courier. Because I live quite close I asked to deliver and collect in person. If I hadn't made this reference to the cds2 clear, Grahams could have claimed that I hadn't made all my 'new' puchases through them.
FWIW, a LONG time ago Naim used to make direct sales, although it was probably only occasionally. Thats where I got my first ( and it was new) LP12. Its also where I got my previously used hicap, 250, and Isobariks.
But the point Doug makes is correct, obviously.......and I don't have any 'special' links or 'under-the-counter' deals..........
Hope nobody feels mis-led
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 19 May 2003 by hi fi fo fum
Don ,I misunderstood your numbers and I offer you an apology.
Steve
Steve
Posted on: 19 May 2003 by Tuan
quote:
Originally posted by hi fi fo fum:
Don ,I misunderstood your numbers and I offer you an apology.
Steve
For those who did not know Steve (HiFi FoFum), please allow me to make few statements (as one of his many customers in Toronto) about him: Steve is very easy going, passionate, knowledgeable, fair (in pricing Naim boxes), and friendly guy I come across. His service is top and I see him as a friend (NOT a Naim dealer). Steve posting such as this one really shows the man quality. Steve, you are the best and your asking prices are FAIR and your service are TOP.
Posted on: 19 May 2003 by Don Atkinson
Steve,
Your apology is accepted
Don
Now that that's sorted out perhaps you and others would care to comment on the real issues at stake here? eg
1. Naim dealers had recently come in for criticism on this forum. Part of that criticism was due to poor service from some dealers. Not discounting.....just poor service. Both Naim and some of their dealers made it clear that retail price maintenance was tied-in to a proper dealer service. If you pay the full price and don't get the service, you are entitled to be critical (and in my opinion, compensation). I would welcome your view on this matter
2. It is my view that a few dealers are abusing their position by not providing the proper service and support. My poll tends to support this view. Again your views are welcome.
Cheers
Your apology is accepted
Don
Now that that's sorted out perhaps you and others would care to comment on the real issues at stake here? eg
1. Naim dealers had recently come in for criticism on this forum. Part of that criticism was due to poor service from some dealers. Not discounting.....just poor service. Both Naim and some of their dealers made it clear that retail price maintenance was tied-in to a proper dealer service. If you pay the full price and don't get the service, you are entitled to be critical (and in my opinion, compensation). I would welcome your view on this matter
2. It is my view that a few dealers are abusing their position by not providing the proper service and support. My poll tends to support this view. Again your views are welcome.
Cheers
Posted on: 19 May 2003 by hi fi fo fum
Don ,now that I understand your point, yes the dealer should be giving set up and proper service, and if not don't buy it from him or you should be compensated ( people should get what they are paying for )The store should be doing this, when I go to do a install I take extra cables ,connectors, everthing that will make the system A+.....If a person is buying a Pre amp we set it up and make sure they are happy before we leave, I also take a power amp or Hi-cap with me just in case they wish to hear that too .
Any time we find somthing that can make there system better we try to call and let people know about it( Ecosse "Z" plugs )
I do think that the dealer should meet and exceed a high level of service,if not then what are they there for...
Steve.
Any time we find somthing that can make there system better we try to call and let people know about it( Ecosse "Z" plugs )
I do think that the dealer should meet and exceed a high level of service,if not then what are they there for...
Steve.
Posted on: 20 May 2003 by hi fi fo fum
Not unless you are the girl from the Naim adds
Posted on: 20 May 2003 by Paul Stephenson
"That's an opinion poll of about five people then."
Alex
Alex still b+t I see, get well soon!
Don we do welcome discsussions like these it adds valuable information to our views on customer service.
Of course things go wrong, our end and our dealers, we are always looking for ways to work this out and improve.
Our reply cards of which we get about 6,000 a year returned give us very good feedback that our customers are well satisfied with the entire Naim experience.
We look at all cards and contact the customer directly should there be any trace of dis-content.
Yes we could do better what is important is our commitment with our dealers to try........check out some Non-naim dealers!
best to all at home on a sickie!!
Alex
Alex still b+t I see, get well soon!
Don we do welcome discsussions like these it adds valuable information to our views on customer service.
Of course things go wrong, our end and our dealers, we are always looking for ways to work this out and improve.
Our reply cards of which we get about 6,000 a year returned give us very good feedback that our customers are well satisfied with the entire Naim experience.
We look at all cards and contact the customer directly should there be any trace of dis-content.
Yes we could do better what is important is our commitment with our dealers to try........check out some Non-naim dealers!
best to all at home on a sickie!!
Posted on: 20 May 2003 by Hermann
Varguas,
Would you tell me who's the dealer in Germany?
Hermann
Would you tell me who's the dealer in Germany?
Hermann
Posted on: 20 May 2003 by Hermann
Well I know him. Thanks
Hermann
Hermann
Posted on: 20 May 2003 by Paul Stephenson
Markus is right up there with the best of them and he has had several bad problems from us to clear up!! Top boy!
Sorry to hear that the French Distributor did not contact you, perhaps there was a language problem between us.
Sorry to hear that the French Distributor did not contact you, perhaps there was a language problem between us.
Posted on: 20 May 2003 by Hermann
Varguas,
Not to go very deep in this issue but no.
Cheers,
Hermann
Not to go very deep in this issue but no.
Cheers,
Hermann
Posted on: 20 May 2003 by Alex S.
I see you're a bit t+e today :> - nothing to do with the thousands of people buying new kit but the percentage of them that can be bothered to fill out reply cards. I'll keep taking the medicine anyway.
Alex
- nothing to do with the thousands of people buying new kit but the percentage of them that can be bothered to fill out reply cards. I'll keep taking the medicine anyway.Alex
Posted on: 20 May 2003 by N. Mason
In answer to "Hi Fi Fo fum", the reasons for dissatisfaction are absolutely nothing to do with money/discounts etc. I expect to pay the full retail price (and have done) because I expect top class service/ installation/return if not satisfied etc etc. At my local NAIM, yes NAIM dealer, at least one of the staff is openly hostile to Naim Products; something about not being able to image properly-what a load of balloney! Only the owner of the business has the knowledge and expertise to install a Naim system and he is in great demand and impossible to get on the phone etc. I know I'm wasting my time talking to anyone else in that dealership; I may need advice, prices, whatever; I cannot rely on them. I would be more impressed if they dropped Naim from the products they sell; at least that would remove the hypocrasy. That's why I'm prepared to go 200 miles down the M6 to "Adventures in Hi-Fi"(they are aso prepared for a similar journey). I appreciate that customers should have choices but if Dealerships were actually TAUGHT PROPERLY HOW to SELL THE BENEFITS OF NAIM OWNERSHIP, they would see the results in increased sales-many dealers are poor salesmen; ultimately you've got to ask for the order, go out of your way to please and we'll keep coming back. Naim dealers should be proud of their franchise, as we are all proud of being Naim owners. I hope the day never comes when I see Naim at Dixons! Hi-Fi-Fo-Fum or whatever your name is, you could not be more wrong. Neil
Posted on: 20 May 2003 by Hermann
Vargas,
I have to add that's more personal thing. I guess his service is top.
Cheers,
Hermann
I have to add that's more personal thing. I guess his service is top.
Cheers,
Hermann
Posted on: 20 May 2003 by Manni
Hermann,
I have to confirm this, Markus Erdmann`s ( my dealer ) service is excellent.( From me he got a "sehr gut" ) For example I got home demoes in the evening, I had the opportunity to hear the stuff over a week and every part of my system was installed by Markus.
Manfred Müllers
I have to confirm this, Markus Erdmann`s ( my dealer ) service is excellent.( From me he got a "sehr gut" ) For example I got home demoes in the evening, I had the opportunity to hear the stuff over a week and every part of my system was installed by Markus.
Manfred Müllers