The USA changes the Middle East
Posted by: Arye_Gur on 11 January 2004
Asad goes to visit to Turkey – a country his father didn’t visit for dozens of years.
Asad asks to talk peace with Israel.
Kadafi is talking with Israeli officials.
From your point there – what do you think about the situation?
Arye
Asad asks to talk peace with Israel.
Kadafi is talking with Israeli officials.
From your point there – what do you think about the situation?
Arye
Posted on: 02 February 2004 by ErikL
Arye,
Okay I see where you're coming from now. I mistook you as a prick at first.
Hmmm, your line of reasoning still seems strange to me. You state that the terror must stop prior to establishing a Palestinian state, but you recognize that all calls to stop the terror have failed because Palestinian leadership has no control. Yet you still suggest that Arafat must stop the terror. How? Are you implying that we need to await the death of Arafat and hope that the Palestinians' power struggle disappears?
This is why I say give them their land first and then see how they behave. Israel has all the cards in this hand IMO, so give Palestinians the benifit of the doubt and a reason to live- give them their land first. If the central government fails to clamp down on terrorists at that point, you can respond as needed. IMO Palestinians just want some respect, recognition, and their own place to call home, so the attacks would subside. What do you have to lose in that scenario compared to today's endless cycle?
PS- Hey, aren't you nuts to live in Haifa? Go somewhere safe ol' boy!
[This message was edited by Ludwig on TUESDAY 03 February 2004 at 01:20.]
Okay I see where you're coming from now. I mistook you as a prick at first.
Hmmm, your line of reasoning still seems strange to me. You state that the terror must stop prior to establishing a Palestinian state, but you recognize that all calls to stop the terror have failed because Palestinian leadership has no control. Yet you still suggest that Arafat must stop the terror. How? Are you implying that we need to await the death of Arafat and hope that the Palestinians' power struggle disappears?
This is why I say give them their land first and then see how they behave. Israel has all the cards in this hand IMO, so give Palestinians the benifit of the doubt and a reason to live- give them their land first. If the central government fails to clamp down on terrorists at that point, you can respond as needed. IMO Palestinians just want some respect, recognition, and their own place to call home, so the attacks would subside. What do you have to lose in that scenario compared to today's endless cycle?
PS- Hey, aren't you nuts to live in Haifa? Go somewhere safe ol' boy!
[This message was edited by Ludwig on TUESDAY 03 February 2004 at 01:20.]
Posted on: 03 February 2004 by Arye_Gur
Ludwig,
These days the Palestinians are shooting shells to Israeli towns near the Gaza Strip. If you look at the map, you can see that giving them the territory first, will make it possible for them to shoot by rifles to towns like Kfar Saba – and this is a risk that I think no country in the world will accept to take.
Arye
quote:
What do you have to lose in that scenario compared to today's endless cycle?
These days the Palestinians are shooting shells to Israeli towns near the Gaza Strip. If you look at the map, you can see that giving them the territory first, will make it possible for them to shoot by rifles to towns like Kfar Saba – and this is a risk that I think no country in the world will accept to take.
Arye
Posted on: 03 February 2004 by Arye_Gur
As a citizen of Israel, I feel great shame relating to our answer to Syria.
Arye
Arye
Posted on: 03 February 2004 by ErikL
quote:
Originally posted by Arye_Gur:
...you can see that giving them the territory first, will make it possible for them to shoot by rifles to towns like Kfar Saba...
Kind of like Lebanon, right? How do you manage that situation today?
Posted on: 03 February 2004 by Arye_Gur
That the Hissballa are shooting fire against aircrafts when there are no aircraft there and a young 17 years old kid was killed in Shlomy' a town near the northern border. They also shooting our soldiers in the Israeli side of the border with no reason. In addition they are delivering weapon and bombs to Gaza strip by ships and are training Palestinians to manufacture bombs to commit suicide attacks - but I guess that you don't count these acts or maybe you are not aware of them.
Arye
Arye
Posted on: 03 February 2004 by ErikL
Arye, please stop assuming that the world doesn't watch the news on TV. We know what's going on in Israel, Gaza, Lebanon, etc. You're also reading too much into my posts. The assumption that nobody cares about Israeli lives is a wrong one, and it lessens your credibility.
I mentioned Lebanon because you share an established border with them today, and you obviously handle cross-border problems (like those you mention) in some way. So... if you give Palestinians their land first, can't you handle cross-border problems the same way?
I mentioned Lebanon because you share an established border with them today, and you obviously handle cross-border problems (like those you mention) in some way. So... if you give Palestinians their land first, can't you handle cross-border problems the same way?
Posted on: 03 February 2004 by Arye_Gur
Ludwig,
I tried to tell you that there are problem in the cross border and problems that are connected to the fact that a terror organization acts freely in a state. The Hissballa is under a Syrian deep control; the Palestinians terror organizations are acting without a control at all.
I have to tell you that I'm truly afraid of giving the Palestinians too much freedom as I don't know (and you don't know) what will be the outcome.
The order of thing must be this way (to my opinion).
A reasonable authority for the Palestinians that will really care to the Palestinians problems - this is the Palestinians responsibility.
Evacuating all the Israeli settlements or leaving few by agreement (territory for territory for example and I'll add something
at the end)
Asking help from Europe to assist the Palestinians with money.
Israel will admit about the deporting of Palestinians in the year 1948 - Palestinians will not be aloud to return to Israel.
A peace agreement between the two states.
If all of this goes right, I think we can give the territory complitly to the Palestinians.
About territory for territory, the Israeli Arabs don't agree to move to Palestinians authority. They are stating loud and clear that they don't want to live there especially not when Arafat is president there.
Arye
I tried to tell you that there are problem in the cross border and problems that are connected to the fact that a terror organization acts freely in a state. The Hissballa is under a Syrian deep control; the Palestinians terror organizations are acting without a control at all.
I have to tell you that I'm truly afraid of giving the Palestinians too much freedom as I don't know (and you don't know) what will be the outcome.
The order of thing must be this way (to my opinion).
A reasonable authority for the Palestinians that will really care to the Palestinians problems - this is the Palestinians responsibility.
Evacuating all the Israeli settlements or leaving few by agreement (territory for territory for example and I'll add something
at the end)
Asking help from Europe to assist the Palestinians with money.
Israel will admit about the deporting of Palestinians in the year 1948 - Palestinians will not be aloud to return to Israel.
A peace agreement between the two states.
If all of this goes right, I think we can give the territory complitly to the Palestinians.
About territory for territory, the Israeli Arabs don't agree to move to Palestinians authority. They are stating loud and clear that they don't want to live there especially not when Arafat is president there.
Arye
Posted on: 04 February 2004 by ErikL
quote:
Originally posted by Arye_Gur:
I have to tell you that I'm truly afraid of giving the Palestinians too much freedom as I don't know (and you don't know) what will be the outcome.
You and every Israeli should be afraid. I mean, you can't expect to cage the Palestinians like animals, to imprison them in their own homes with curfews, to jail them without charges, to destroy their neighborhoods with bulldozers (sometimes atop them), and to suffocate their economy and any breath of opportunity to live respectable and normal lives, and then expect the animal not to bite your ass off when you let them out of the cage. To me, it's completely unnatural to think that the outcome will occur without significant bloodshed on both sides. However, by giving them their land first I still believe that it would be more manageable, and in a way more respected by the international community and its laws.
PS- In your proposed steps, you missed the part about an articulate and respected Israeli leader with even the slightest philanthropic twinkle in his/her eye.
Posted on: 07 February 2004 by Arye_Gur
Ludwig,
If you wish to continue this argue, please mail me to ariegur@walla.co.il .
Arye
If you wish to continue this argue, please mail me to ariegur@walla.co.il .
Arye
Posted on: 07 February 2004 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:
Originally posted by Arye_Gur:
Ludwig,
The terror here is a great obstacle to peace.
If the terror stops, there is a good chance to change the future. Even if I think that I may have a problem with the Israeli Arabs in 50 years from now, I don't think that the solution is to bomb them in their villages in Israel. Sharon and Arafat will not last forever.
Arye
From the BBCi website
"....Aziz Mahmoud Shami, a local commander and bodyguard to one of the leaders of the group, died from his injuries.
A 14-year-old boy, Tariq Sussi, was also killed in the attack and at least nine other people were wounded.
The Israeli military said the air attack on one of Gaza's main streets had targeted a "senior terrorist"......"
....air attack on a main street.... But no problem as the IDF targetted a senior terrorist.
Fot the record, I am not anti Jewish or anti Semitic. Just even handed, and sad.
Mike
Posted on: 08 February 2004 by Arye_Gur
Mike,
It makes me sad too, but if the IDF kills a person that planes attacks against civilian in Israel, the outcome can be as sad as it is in this case and others.
There is a say that goes like this - If you cut wood you may be hurt by chips.
It is impossible to think that the Palestinians will bomb citizens in Israel (not only Jews) and their citizens will live peacefully and protected. It is a war here and things are going as it is in war - although I know that there are people in Europe who are thinking that the terrorists are criminals and Israel must relate them like criminals.
Arye
It makes me sad too, but if the IDF kills a person that planes attacks against civilian in Israel, the outcome can be as sad as it is in this case and others.
There is a say that goes like this - If you cut wood you may be hurt by chips.
It is impossible to think that the Palestinians will bomb citizens in Israel (not only Jews) and their citizens will live peacefully and protected. It is a war here and things are going as it is in war - although I know that there are people in Europe who are thinking that the terrorists are criminals and Israel must relate them like criminals.
Arye
Posted on: 09 February 2004 by Harvey
So this 14 year old on his way home from school and the other innocents injured in this rocket attack, what wood was it that they were cutting? I have to confess that it jars a bit listening to faux-contrition followed up swiftly with some BS cliche to explain away the blood of another innocent victim of this madness. God forbid, but should any of your kids should be lost in the inevitable and imminent retaliatory strike by Hamas, ought we to excuse it on the basis of some cold, Godless zero wheeling out "what goes around comes around", "if you lie with dogs you're gonna get fleas" or some other crap cliche? Where is your humanity? Think of this kid's family this morning and be ashamed man. If they are human, shock will be followed by grieving which will be followed by a hunger for revenge and so it goes on; dead Israelis, dead Palestinians.
Arye, when you see blunt and patently counter-productive policies like this being carried out month after month,in your name, do you or anybody that you know who's half sensible, actually feel any safer, happier or think that it's taking you even one step of the way towards solving this mess?
Re. it being a war. It really isn't. It's a typical guerrilla resistance campaign. I think we've had the occupation, the ongoing land grab, civil repression and in turn the resistance to this. I imagine that this is all going to turn somewhat uglier before the penny drops. That may involve a real 2 sided war. I think that both sides will suffer horribly but the question is who has most to lose? Just my 2 cents worth.
Arye, when you see blunt and patently counter-productive policies like this being carried out month after month,in your name, do you or anybody that you know who's half sensible, actually feel any safer, happier or think that it's taking you even one step of the way towards solving this mess?
Re. it being a war. It really isn't. It's a typical guerrilla resistance campaign. I think we've had the occupation, the ongoing land grab, civil repression and in turn the resistance to this. I imagine that this is all going to turn somewhat uglier before the penny drops. That may involve a real 2 sided war. I think that both sides will suffer horribly but the question is who has most to lose? Just my 2 cents worth.
Posted on: 09 February 2004 by Harvey
Exactly. Every time the British army or the RUC killed someone by mistake or even when Thatcher stood and watched the hunger strikers die, the IRA coffers swelled to bursting, in no small part funds from the US, and many guys with no previous involvement lent their support to the Republican movement. It's hardly a difficult link to make, but one which seems beyond the grasp of Israeli politicians and their blinkered electorate.
Posted on: 09 February 2004 by Arye_Gur
Tell me what do you think Israel must do now ?
Arye
Arye
Posted on: 09 February 2004 by Justin
quote:
Originally posted by Harvey:
. . . the IRA coffers swelled to bursting, in no small part funds from the US. . .
Funds from private US citizens who were breaking US and International law. This thread is about Isreal and Palastine. But never an opportunity is permitted to pass without a gratuitous dig on the US. Good show!!!
Judd
Judd
Posted on: 09 February 2004 by Justin
Well,
Frankly I have no clue. I've no doubt that removal of the settlements will be a step in the right direction. This may lead to ceasefire, which could, I suppose, pave the way to talks about statehood.
Part of me thinks that Isreali withdrawal from the territories and establishment of clear borders (even if they are not 100% acceptable to both sides) will end the conflict.
But, part of me is unable to dismiss the stated goals of Hamas and PJ, which is to drive Isreal into the sea. Palestinian interests are varied. Borders, rights of return, the end of settlements, etc. It is my belief that one cannot (1) accept the UN partition AND (2) grant Palestinians all of the interests set forth above. For instance, even if one declines to take sides on the issue, he should at least admit that the partition is at least inconsistent with the right of return. My lawyerly sophestry teaches that the rights of "ownership", with withever else that might mean, certainly means at the very least the right to exclusive posession. And therefore, one can argue all day that the Palestinians should have the right to return (and maybe they do), but that position necessarily repudiates the original partition - this position is certainly not crazy. I'm sure plenty would like to undo what the UN did.
I'll also express my unhappiness with Arafat's rejection of the borders set down by Camp David (was it Camp David or Dayton, I can't recall now). I'm sympathetic to the notion that the border included some gerimandering (although, obviously not in the same sense we normally mean it) and that it encroached rather more than one would have ultmately liked. BUT, I'm also sympathetic to the notion that the whole solution represented enormous sacrifices on both sides. Remember, as it stands now (and did at the the time) Isreal has effective dominion and control over all of Palestine, in any event, that solution would have effectively ended settlements, which is VERY unpopular among certain segments of the Isreali population. The point is, there were major concessions on both sides.
I think that map ought to be revisited once we have a new administration in place (the current one is too stupid to even locate Isreal on the map - good god, did you see him on Tim Russert this weekend - my 3 year old would have sounded brighter).
I have no solutions. Let's see what the next administration does.
Judd
Frankly I have no clue. I've no doubt that removal of the settlements will be a step in the right direction. This may lead to ceasefire, which could, I suppose, pave the way to talks about statehood.
Part of me thinks that Isreali withdrawal from the territories and establishment of clear borders (even if they are not 100% acceptable to both sides) will end the conflict.
But, part of me is unable to dismiss the stated goals of Hamas and PJ, which is to drive Isreal into the sea. Palestinian interests are varied. Borders, rights of return, the end of settlements, etc. It is my belief that one cannot (1) accept the UN partition AND (2) grant Palestinians all of the interests set forth above. For instance, even if one declines to take sides on the issue, he should at least admit that the partition is at least inconsistent with the right of return. My lawyerly sophestry teaches that the rights of "ownership", with withever else that might mean, certainly means at the very least the right to exclusive posession. And therefore, one can argue all day that the Palestinians should have the right to return (and maybe they do), but that position necessarily repudiates the original partition - this position is certainly not crazy. I'm sure plenty would like to undo what the UN did.
I'll also express my unhappiness with Arafat's rejection of the borders set down by Camp David (was it Camp David or Dayton, I can't recall now). I'm sympathetic to the notion that the border included some gerimandering (although, obviously not in the same sense we normally mean it) and that it encroached rather more than one would have ultmately liked. BUT, I'm also sympathetic to the notion that the whole solution represented enormous sacrifices on both sides. Remember, as it stands now (and did at the the time) Isreal has effective dominion and control over all of Palestine, in any event, that solution would have effectively ended settlements, which is VERY unpopular among certain segments of the Isreali population. The point is, there were major concessions on both sides.
I think that map ought to be revisited once we have a new administration in place (the current one is too stupid to even locate Isreal on the map - good god, did you see him on Tim Russert this weekend - my 3 year old would have sounded brighter).
I have no solutions. Let's see what the next administration does.
Judd
Posted on: 09 February 2004 by Arye_Gur
Harvey,
When you ask me about this 14 years old boy, it seems to be unconnected to anything. I can ask you - what about the boys in the buss, disco Tec and so on. To my opinion, if the man who was killed is a person who is planning suicide bombs in Israel, the government of Israel must kill him. I know that it is sound terrible, but if killing this murderer means less suicide attacks against Israel, I think that the death of innocence Palestinians citizens is something we can't prevent. The solution is' to ask the Palestinians to chose a government that will can govern their land and will be able to arrest these criminals.
Justin,
You (and others) don't know what can be the starter to stop the death circle here - what about this idea - The Palestinians will chose a government that will be able to take care of the Palestinians themselves. Sound quite easy, don't it?
Arye
When you ask me about this 14 years old boy, it seems to be unconnected to anything. I can ask you - what about the boys in the buss, disco Tec and so on. To my opinion, if the man who was killed is a person who is planning suicide bombs in Israel, the government of Israel must kill him. I know that it is sound terrible, but if killing this murderer means less suicide attacks against Israel, I think that the death of innocence Palestinians citizens is something we can't prevent. The solution is' to ask the Palestinians to chose a government that will can govern their land and will be able to arrest these criminals.
Justin,
You (and others) don't know what can be the starter to stop the death circle here - what about this idea - The Palestinians will chose a government that will be able to take care of the Palestinians themselves. Sound quite easy, don't it?
Arye
Posted on: 09 February 2004 by Arye_Gur
Patrick,
If you can follow the responses of Israel to the suicide attacks, you will find that many times Israel didn't response to several attacks - but it only brought more and more attacks. We are talking about our lives. If we can ignore the past - at least for several months, what do you think both sided must do now in order to stop the situation here?
Arye
If you can follow the responses of Israel to the suicide attacks, you will find that many times Israel didn't response to several attacks - but it only brought more and more attacks. We are talking about our lives. If we can ignore the past - at least for several months, what do you think both sided must do now in order to stop the situation here?
Arye
Posted on: 09 February 2004 by Harvey
Arye before I get thrown off the scent by answering your question, didn't notice if you'd answered mine. Any chance? Just to remind you:
As to what to do, do I take it that you understand that killing innocents feeds hatred which leads to a rich supply of desperate and committed people willing to die and kill to see, if not better terms for their people, at least a living hell for the people of Israel. I would love to know if you even accept this basic idea. Before you state that the PA must stop suicide bombings before Israel does anything let's just agree that they have been so undermined and under-resourced that they'd have difficulty apprehending a kid for raiding an orchard and let's just imagine that the Israel has the balls and the desire to to see a just, equitable and durable solution to this mess without bollocks preconditions.
The stated halt to Israel's policies of targeted assasinations, collective punishment, land seizures, settlement expansion and fence construction would at least provide a backdrop against which real negotiations with the Palestinian leadership, as respected equals, as partners, not as some subservient dogs who may or may not be to your liking, could take place on the future shape of both Israeli and Palestinian state. That's the start.
To your credit Ayre, if you're being genuine, at least you're asking the question. Successive Israeli governments have poured scorn on opinions and offers of help from anybody but the US, and even that is only when they agree with their opinion. If ever a situation demanded a powerful, independent mutually accepted third party, this has to be it. Get a team of those lovely Norwegian/Swedish mediators in there. You can't have a problem with them surely? What do you say?
Justin
Man you've got to let a medic have a look at that bag of chips on your shoulder. My mother is American, 4th daughter of 6 kids, more cousins, aunts and uncles than I can shake a stick at and as I've stated to you in a previous post, she and pretty much all of my US cousins despair of the impression given abroad by people like yourself. Failure to join you in your unquestioning support of the shocking policies of the Israeli state and this administration's dubious plans in the wider Middle East, doesn't mean that I or any of my family love the US any less than you. It could actually be argued that by letting others know that the people of the US haven't all turned into a marauding group of jingoistic neocons, we may actually help to stem the explosion of global anti-US feeling that this adminstration and opinions like yours have
engendered.
My statement regarding funds flowing from the US to the IRA coffers is a matter of fact I'm afraid. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some of my uncles hadn't thrown some cash in a bucket in the local INF. I'm not proud of it, it's wrong and I am the first to condemn it, but I'm not about to cry about it.
quote:
when you see blunt and patently counter-productive policies like this being carried out month after month,in your name, do you or anybody that you know who's half sensible, actually feel any safer, happier or think that it's taking you even one step of the way towards solving this mess?
As to what to do, do I take it that you understand that killing innocents feeds hatred which leads to a rich supply of desperate and committed people willing to die and kill to see, if not better terms for their people, at least a living hell for the people of Israel. I would love to know if you even accept this basic idea. Before you state that the PA must stop suicide bombings before Israel does anything let's just agree that they have been so undermined and under-resourced that they'd have difficulty apprehending a kid for raiding an orchard and let's just imagine that the Israel has the balls and the desire to to see a just, equitable and durable solution to this mess without bollocks preconditions.
The stated halt to Israel's policies of targeted assasinations, collective punishment, land seizures, settlement expansion and fence construction would at least provide a backdrop against which real negotiations with the Palestinian leadership, as respected equals, as partners, not as some subservient dogs who may or may not be to your liking, could take place on the future shape of both Israeli and Palestinian state. That's the start.
To your credit Ayre, if you're being genuine, at least you're asking the question. Successive Israeli governments have poured scorn on opinions and offers of help from anybody but the US, and even that is only when they agree with their opinion. If ever a situation demanded a powerful, independent mutually accepted third party, this has to be it. Get a team of those lovely Norwegian/Swedish mediators in there. You can't have a problem with them surely? What do you say?
Justin
Man you've got to let a medic have a look at that bag of chips on your shoulder. My mother is American, 4th daughter of 6 kids, more cousins, aunts and uncles than I can shake a stick at and as I've stated to you in a previous post, she and pretty much all of my US cousins despair of the impression given abroad by people like yourself. Failure to join you in your unquestioning support of the shocking policies of the Israeli state and this administration's dubious plans in the wider Middle East, doesn't mean that I or any of my family love the US any less than you. It could actually be argued that by letting others know that the people of the US haven't all turned into a marauding group of jingoistic neocons, we may actually help to stem the explosion of global anti-US feeling that this adminstration and opinions like yours have
engendered.
My statement regarding funds flowing from the US to the IRA coffers is a matter of fact I'm afraid. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some of my uncles hadn't thrown some cash in a bucket in the local INF. I'm not proud of it, it's wrong and I am the first to condemn it, but I'm not about to cry about it.
Posted on: 09 February 2004 by Justin
quote:
Originally posted by Harvey:
Justin
Man you've got to let a medic have a look at that bag of chips on your shoulder. My mother is American, 4th daughter of 6 kids, more cousins, aunts and uncles than I can shake a stick at and as I've stated to you in a previous post, she and pretty much all of my US cousins despair of the impression given abroad by people like yourself. Failure to join you in your unquestioning support of the shocking policies of the Israeli state and this administration's dubious plans in the wider Middle East, doesn't mean that I or any of my family love the US any less than you. It could actually be argued that by letting others know that the people of the US haven't all turned into a marauding group of jingoistic neocons, we may actually help to stem the explosion of global anti-US feeling that this adminstration and opinions like yours have
engendered.
.
Thanks for making my point. This thread was not about the US. But you decided to throw in a jab anyway. I said "stop throwing jabs where they don't belong" and then you go on a tirade about how US foreign policy is destroying thw world. All of that may be true, but it was not relevant in this thread (at least not at the time you decided to throw the jab).
I know I know. You have lots of Jewish friends also. So what!!!!! Stick to the issues at hand - I'm not throwing around the Falklands, am I? It's not relevant.
Judd
Posted on: 09 February 2004 by Justin
BTW, Harvey,
Rather than simply admit that your allegation of US involvement in NI terrorism is not relevant to a conversation about the conflict between Isreal and Palestine, you decided to personally insult me.
Judd
Rather than simply admit that your allegation of US involvement in NI terrorism is not relevant to a conversation about the conflict between Isreal and Palestine, you decided to personally insult me.
Judd
Posted on: 09 February 2004 by Arye_Gur
Harvey,
To answer your question, for the last 3 years, I think that the power of Israel is what keeping us here. It is difficult to tell now if moral here is stronger than power, but as I see it, power is what we need. I have many questions to my government about "how did we arrive to this situation", I'm sure we could do a lot better in the last 35 years. But when you are looking at the situation these days, I don't know what we can do better. I say again, the Palestinian authority doesn't act as it should. They have (and they can!) to take a full control of their territory. As Arafat doesn't want to fight against the terror organizations, I can't see a way for Israel to act without hearting the innocent PA civilians - not in purpose, but as it goes in war. The PA terrorists are using the PA as a shield - and the PA civilians (maybe they can't) don't fight against these terrorists. It is a fact that we are standing against terrorist and it is a fact they don't want to talk peace with us, and it is a fact that Arafat doesn't want to stop the terror from his territory and his people.
Arye
To answer your question, for the last 3 years, I think that the power of Israel is what keeping us here. It is difficult to tell now if moral here is stronger than power, but as I see it, power is what we need. I have many questions to my government about "how did we arrive to this situation", I'm sure we could do a lot better in the last 35 years. But when you are looking at the situation these days, I don't know what we can do better. I say again, the Palestinian authority doesn't act as it should. They have (and they can!) to take a full control of their territory. As Arafat doesn't want to fight against the terror organizations, I can't see a way for Israel to act without hearting the innocent PA civilians - not in purpose, but as it goes in war. The PA terrorists are using the PA as a shield - and the PA civilians (maybe they can't) don't fight against these terrorists. It is a fact that we are standing against terrorist and it is a fact they don't want to talk peace with us, and it is a fact that Arafat doesn't want to stop the terror from his territory and his people.
Arye
Posted on: 10 February 2004 by bigmick
quote:
I'll also express my unhappiness with Arafat's rejection of the borders set down by Camp David (was it Camp David or Dayton, I can't recall now).
Can you just clarify, is this the Barak plan that you are referring to here?
Posted on: 10 February 2004 by Harvey
Sorry Justin I had no idea that you were such a delicate flower. I can’t see where I personally insulted you or said anything factually incorrect. My original point was clearly that there was a clear link between killing innocent Palestinians and more dead innocent Israelis. I had hoped that you and Arye would let us know if you grasped this concept. Naturally you leapt at the chance to sidestep the issue and make a big deal out of an aside that I made. My subsequent point to you, which incredulously you also failed to grasp, was that considering that I am so heavily allied to the US, my factually correct aside was not a random sidewipe at the entire US nation, but instead a valid criticism of those, my family included, who thought there to be any justification in meddling in, or providing succour to, an organisation which sought to achieve it’s means through terrorism. I’ve always thought that there should be a United Ireland, but along the way I’ve thought it more important that the Catholics should have parity with their Protestant neighbours. I didn’t at time think that violence was the answer. On some level, actually, there are actually parallels and maybe lessons to be learnt from the Irish situation, so it seems that my aside has a relevance. Maybe the US should stop inappropriate meddling, cut Israel loose, stop pumping ludicrous amounts of money into their military and stop rubber stamping their barbaric policies.
Justin we can discuss the Falklands if you want. Britain has made a ton of mistakes, most countries have. The sad thing is when folk think that wrapping themselves up in the flag and green lighting every policy, no matter how despicable or wrong, makes them greater patriots and anyone who disagrees is, what was it you called someone, an apologist or an appeaser.
Do I have lots of Jewish friends? It's either news to me or something else that you're wrong about. Looking at form, I'll plump for the latter. I know a few Jewish people through work and a neighbour and only one shows an inclination to express a strong opinion and he, like Arye, reckons that the Palestinians should continue to be killed nutil they see fit to put forward a leader that Israel approves of. Funny that; given Sharon's record on the murder, criminal and serial liar front, I should have thought that he and Arafat were a perfect match and the Israeli electorate most ill-equiped to judge anyone else's choice of leader. I think that equating Jews with Israelis is most unkind to the Jews that I have met, so answering the question that perhaps you meant to ask; I know one Israeli on a fairly personal basis. He does some work for me, has a good sense of humour and seems a nice man. He has always seemed disinclined to discuss Israel, stating only that he is glad to be out of it and despairs of the whole situation. So what!!!! An optimistic question. What was your point?
Justin we can discuss the Falklands if you want. Britain has made a ton of mistakes, most countries have. The sad thing is when folk think that wrapping themselves up in the flag and green lighting every policy, no matter how despicable or wrong, makes them greater patriots and anyone who disagrees is, what was it you called someone, an apologist or an appeaser.
Do I have lots of Jewish friends? It's either news to me or something else that you're wrong about. Looking at form, I'll plump for the latter. I know a few Jewish people through work and a neighbour and only one shows an inclination to express a strong opinion and he, like Arye, reckons that the Palestinians should continue to be killed nutil they see fit to put forward a leader that Israel approves of. Funny that; given Sharon's record on the murder, criminal and serial liar front, I should have thought that he and Arafat were a perfect match and the Israeli electorate most ill-equiped to judge anyone else's choice of leader. I think that equating Jews with Israelis is most unkind to the Jews that I have met, so answering the question that perhaps you meant to ask; I know one Israeli on a fairly personal basis. He does some work for me, has a good sense of humour and seems a nice man. He has always seemed disinclined to discuss Israel, stating only that he is glad to be out of it and despairs of the whole situation. So what!!!! An optimistic question. What was your point?
Posted on: 10 February 2004 by Harvey
Arye, you should be a politician. You are singularly incapable of answering one simple question. Do you see the link yet?
For pities sake change the record on the PA. Your leadership is equally revolting and inherently corrupt. Stop looking for easy obstacles and instead turn your energies to taking a brave first step to peace.
Interesting that you asked a question, I offered a few suggestions and you had not one word to say on them. Maybe your request wasn't so genuine after all? Your government would be proud.
I think that kids killed in buses, or discotheques is barbaric and a bloody tragedy, just like the kids killed while they sleep or on their way home from school. It's the fact that you judge the Hamas policy murderous and depraved and the Israeli policy as necessary and perfectly acceptable that reveals your true nature. Both are insidious and neither Palestinian nor Israeli kids deserve to be blown to pieces and have snivelling weasels like you proffer cliches to excuse their deaths.
For pities sake change the record on the PA. Your leadership is equally revolting and inherently corrupt. Stop looking for easy obstacles and instead turn your energies to taking a brave first step to peace.
Interesting that you asked a question, I offered a few suggestions and you had not one word to say on them. Maybe your request wasn't so genuine after all? Your government would be proud.
I think that kids killed in buses, or discotheques is barbaric and a bloody tragedy, just like the kids killed while they sleep or on their way home from school. It's the fact that you judge the Hamas policy murderous and depraved and the Israeli policy as necessary and perfectly acceptable that reveals your true nature. Both are insidious and neither Palestinian nor Israeli kids deserve to be blown to pieces and have snivelling weasels like you proffer cliches to excuse their deaths.