The USA changes the Middle East

Ludwig,

The terror here is a great obstacle to peace.
If the terror stops, there is a good chance to change the future. Even if I think that I may have a problem with the Israeli Arabs in 50 years from now, I don't think that the solution is to bomb them in their villages in Israel. Sharon and Arafat will not last forever.

Arye

Fritz,

Because of the differences in culture and because of the fact that culture and religion are a part in the official arrangements in Israel, young Arab kids can't study with young Jewish kids.
But in the University of Haifa, both groups are studying English (among other subjects) together.

Arye

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Originally posted by Arye_Gur:
The terror here is a great obstacle to peace.
If the terror stops, there is a good chance to change the future.

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Right on cue- the finger-pointing "it's them not us" attitude I was talking about. I'm amazed with the popularity of the perspective that terror has to stop before a land settlement can be reached. People who share that view can't honestly want peace today. Come on Arye.

Try this:

The caging of Palestinians like animals is the great obstacle to peace and to safety for Israelis. Knock down the walls, give Palestinians their freedom and land, and there will be peace because the Palestinians will halt terror themselves because they will have something they wouldn't want to lose in retaliation by Israel- their own land with internationally respected borders and legitimacy in the global community.

Ludwig

I think that you are missing few facts.
First, I think that the settlements are an obstacle to peace,
I know that my parents deported cruelty 700,000 Palestinians in the year 1948. After saying this, I wish to correct you:

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because they will have something they wouldn't want to lose in retaliation by Israel

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Many leaders in Israel thought that it is important to improve the economic situation of the Palestinian in the occupied territory. The leaders of Europe wanted to help by giving money to the Palestinians' authority. What happened? The money was stolen by Arafat and his friends.
The situation went so bad – until the European governments decided to stop delivering the money to the Palestinians.
Israel can help the situation by letting the Palestinians work in Israel, but few of them are using it to commit suicide bomb in Israel.
Sharon stated that the Palestinians will have a state in the West bank and Gaza Strip. Arafat stated many times that a Palestinians state is only a first step to get control on Jaffa and Haifa (and I'm living in Haifa!!!).
You are thinking that the Palestinians can stop the terror – but you are wrong! Few times, in order to achieve quiet for several months, there were trials to come to agreement with the Palestinians to stop the terror at least temporally – all the trials failed. The reason is that the Palestinians authority has no control of all the groups in their land. Actually, IDF is acting like a Palestinians police department in order to get control of the groups who are taking the terror as a strategic way of act.

I say many times that Israel is not free of mistakes with its treatment to the Palestinians, but the Palestinians are not showing a serious way in trying to solve the situation here.

Arye

Arye,

Okay I see where you're coming from now. I mistook you as a prick at first.

Hmmm, your line of reasoning still seems strange to me. You state that the terror must stop prior to establishing a Palestinian state, but you recognize that all calls to stop the terror have failed because Palestinian leadership has no control. Yet you still suggest that Arafat must stop the terror. How? Are you implying that we need to await the death of Arafat and hope that the Palestinians' power struggle disappears?

This is why I say give them their land first and then see how they behave. Israel has all the cards in this hand IMO, so give Palestinians the benifit of the doubt and a reason to live- give them their land first. If the central government fails to clamp down on terrorists at that point, you can respond as needed. IMO Palestinians just want some respect, recognition, and their own place to call home, so the attacks would subside. What do you have to lose in that scenario compared to today's endless cycle?

PS- Hey, aren't you nuts to live in Haifa? Go somewhere safe ol' boy!

[This message was edited by Ludwig on TUESDAY 03 February 2004 at 01:20.]

Ludwig,

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What do you have to lose in that scenario compared to today's endless cycle?

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These days the Palestinians are shooting shells to Israeli towns near the Gaza Strip. If you look at the map, you can see that giving them the territory first, will make it possible for them to shoot by rifles to towns like Kfar Saba – and this is a risk that I think no country in the world will accept to take.

Arye

Just one sad point,

Yes, the mixed schools is a good suggestion. In my daughter's class there's an arab boy from Jaffa, but his parents' courage is the exception to the rule. The mainstream at the moment is hatred from both sides and any call for mutual respect is labeled on both sides under "treason".

Both sides are now used to war and fear peace. The P. Terror movements will cease to exist on one side, and Sharon will lose votes and power on the painful road to peace, like Rabin and Peres did. He claimed "the people is not ready for peace on many fronts" when negotiation with Syria seemed to have been started again. Haha, as if peace is doing well at one front. At the same time also reminding us how we will not forget how Syria treated Israeli prisoners some 30+ years ago.

Omer.

As a citizen of Israel, I feel great shame relating to our answer to Syria.

Arye

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Originally posted by Arye_Gur:
...you can see that giving them the territory first, will make it possible for them to shoot by rifles to towns like Kfar Saba...

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Kind of like Lebanon, right? How do you manage that situation today?

That the Hissballa are shooting fire against aircrafts when there are no aircraft there and a young 17 years old kid was killed in Shlomy' a town near the northern border. They also shooting our soldiers in the Israeli side of the border with no reason. In addition they are delivering weapon and bombs to Gaza strip by ships and are training Palestinians to manufacture bombs to commit suicide attacks - but I guess that you don't count these acts or maybe you are not aware of them.

Arye

Arye, please stop assuming that the world doesn't watch the news on TV. We know what's going on in Israel, Gaza, Lebanon, etc. You're also reading too much into my posts. The assumption that nobody cares about Israeli lives is a wrong one, and it lessens your credibility.

I mentioned Lebanon because you share an established border with them today, and you obviously handle cross-border problems (like those you mention) in some way. So... if you give Palestinians their land first, can't you handle cross-border problems the same way?

Ludwig,

I tried to tell you that there are problem in the cross border and problems that are connected to the fact that a terror organization acts freely in a state. The Hissballa is under a Syrian deep control; the Palestinians terror organizations are acting without a control at all.
I have to tell you that I'm truly afraid of giving the Palestinians too much freedom as I don't know (and you don't know) what will be the outcome.
The order of thing must be this way (to my opinion).
A reasonable authority for the Palestinians that will really care to the Palestinians problems - this is the Palestinians responsibility.
Evacuating all the Israeli settlements or leaving few by agreement (territory for territory for example and I'll add something
at the end)
Asking help from Europe to assist the Palestinians with money.
Israel will admit about the deporting of Palestinians in the year 1948 - Palestinians will not be aloud to return to Israel.
A peace agreement between the two states.
If all of this goes right, I think we can give the territory complitly to the Palestinians.

About territory for territory, the Israeli Arabs don't agree to move to Palestinians authority. They are stating loud and clear that they don't want to live there especially not when Arafat is president there.

Arye

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Originally posted by Arye_Gur:
I have to tell you that I'm truly afraid of giving the Palestinians too much freedom as I don't know (and you don't know) what will be the outcome.

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You and every Israeli should be afraid. I mean, you can't expect to cage the Palestinians like animals, to imprison them in their own homes with curfews, to jail them without charges, to destroy their neighborhoods with bulldozers (sometimes atop them), and to suffocate their economy and any breath of opportunity to live respectable and normal lives, and then expect the animal not to bite your ass off when you let them out of the cage. To me, it's completely unnatural to think that the outcome will occur without significant bloodshed on both sides. However, by giving them their land first I still believe that it would be more manageable, and in a way more respected by the international community and its laws.

PS- In your proposed steps, you missed the part about an articulate and respected Israeli leader with even the slightest philanthropic twinkle in his/her eye.

Ludwig,
If you wish to continue this argue, please mail me to ariegur@walla.co.il .

Arye

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Originally posted by Arye_Gur:
Ludwig,

The terror here is a great obstacle to peace.
If the terror stops, there is a good chance to change the future. Even if I think that I may have a problem with the Israeli Arabs in 50 years from now, I don't think that the solution is to bomb them in their villages in Israel. Sharon and Arafat will not last forever.

Arye

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From the BBCi website

"....Aziz Mahmoud Shami, a local commander and bodyguard to one of the leaders of the group, died from his injuries.

A 14-year-old boy, Tariq Sussi, was also killed in the attack and at least nine other people were wounded.

The Israeli military said the air attack on one of Gaza's main streets had targeted a "senior terrorist"......"


....air attack on a main street.... But no problem as the IDF targetted a senior terrorist.

Fot the record, I am not anti Jewish or anti Semitic. Just even handed, and sad.

Mike

Mike,

It makes me sad too, but if the IDF kills a person that planes attacks against civilian in Israel, the outcome can be as sad as it is in this case and others.

There is a say that goes like this - If you cut wood you may be hurt by chips.
It is impossible to think that the Palestinians will bomb citizens in Israel (not only Jews) and their citizens will live peacefully and protected. It is a war here and things are going as it is in war - although I know that there are people in Europe who are thinking that the terrorists are criminals and Israel must relate them like criminals.

Arye

So this 14 year old on his way home from school and the other innocents injured in this rocket attack, what wood was it that they were cutting? I have to confess that it jars a bit listening to faux-contrition followed up swiftly with some BS cliche to explain away the blood of another innocent victim of this madness. God forbid, but should any of your kids should be lost in the inevitable and imminent retaliatory strike by Hamas, ought we to excuse it on the basis of some cold, Godless zero wheeling out "what goes around comes around", "if you lie with dogs you're gonna get fleas" or some other crap cliche? Where is your humanity? Think of this kid's family this morning and be ashamed man. If they are human, shock will be followed by grieving which will be followed by a hunger for revenge and so it goes on; dead Israelis, dead Palestinians.

Arye, when you see blunt and patently counter-productive policies like this being carried out month after month,in your name, do you or anybody that you know who's half sensible, actually feel any safer, happier or think that it's taking you even one step of the way towards solving this mess?

Re. it being a war. It really isn't. It's a typical guerrilla resistance campaign. I think we've had the occupation, the ongoing land grab, civil repression and in turn the resistance to this. I imagine that this is all going to turn somewhat uglier before the penny drops. That may involve a real 2 sided war. I think that both sides will suffer horribly but the question is who has most to lose? Just my 2 cents worth.

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... but the question is who has most to lose?

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IMHO, that's why Israel has to take the lead - surely you only have peace to gain? Everytime you kill a Palestinian ('justified' or not), you just create more terrorists to take his place. The sense of injustice and dispair gets stonger and deeper, and the downward spiral continues.

Just imagine the outcry if the British Army had 'taken out' IRA members with rockets in busy streets in Belfast.

Exactly. Every time the British army or the RUC killed someone by mistake or even when Thatcher stood and watched the hunger strikers die, the IRA coffers swelled to bursting, in no small part funds from the US, and many guys with no previous involvement lent their support to the Republican movement. It's hardly a difficult link to make, but one which seems beyond the grasp of Israeli politicians and their blinkered electorate.

Tell me what do you think Israel must do now ?

Arye

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Originally posted by Harvey:
. . . the IRA coffers swelled to bursting, in no small part funds from the US. . .

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Funds from private US citizens who were breaking US and International law. This thread is about Isreal and Palastine. But never an opportunity is permitted to pass without a gratuitous dig on the US. Good show!!!

Judd


Judd

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This thread is about Isreal and Palastine. (sic)

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OK, Judd - so as a citizen of the biggest, richest, most powerful country in the world (and the one that has the most influence in Israel to boot), how do you see this conflict being resolved, and what part do you think your country needs to play to make it happen?

Well,

Frankly I have no clue. I've no doubt that removal of the settlements will be a step in the right direction. This may lead to ceasefire, which could, I suppose, pave the way to talks about statehood.

Part of me thinks that Isreali withdrawal from the territories and establishment of clear borders (even if they are not 100% acceptable to both sides) will end the conflict.

But, part of me is unable to dismiss the stated goals of Hamas and PJ, which is to drive Isreal into the sea. Palestinian interests are varied. Borders, rights of return, the end of settlements, etc. It is my belief that one cannot (1) accept the UN partition AND (2) grant Palestinians all of the interests set forth above. For instance, even if one declines to take sides on the issue, he should at least admit that the partition is at least inconsistent with the right of return. My lawyerly sophestry teaches that the rights of "ownership", with withever else that might mean, certainly means at the very least the right to exclusive posession. And therefore, one can argue all day that the Palestinians should have the right to return (and maybe they do), but that position necessarily repudiates the original partition - this position is certainly not crazy. I'm sure plenty would like to undo what the UN did.

I'll also express my unhappiness with Arafat's rejection of the borders set down by Camp David (was it Camp David or Dayton, I can't recall now). I'm sympathetic to the notion that the border included some gerimandering (although, obviously not in the same sense we normally mean it) and that it encroached rather more than one would have ultmately liked. BUT, I'm also sympathetic to the notion that the whole solution represented enormous sacrifices on both sides. Remember, as it stands now (and did at the the time) Isreal has effective dominion and control over all of Palestine, in any event, that solution would have effectively ended settlements, which is VERY unpopular among certain segments of the Isreali population. The point is, there were major concessions on both sides.

I think that map ought to be revisited once we have a new administration in place (the current one is too stupid to even locate Isreal on the map - good god, did you see him on Tim Russert this weekend - my 3 year old would have sounded brighter).

I have no solutions. Let's see what the next administration does.

Judd

Harvey,

When you ask me about this 14 years old boy, it seems to be unconnected to anything. I can ask you - what about the boys in the buss, disco Tec and so on. To my opinion, if the man who was killed is a person who is planning suicide bombs in Israel, the government of Israel must kill him. I know that it is sound terrible, but if killing this murderer means less suicide attacks against Israel, I think that the death of innocence Palestinians citizens is something we can't prevent. The solution is' to ask the Palestinians to chose a government that will can govern their land and will be able to arrest these criminals.

Justin,
You (and others) don't know what can be the starter to stop the death circle here - what about this idea - The Palestinians will chose a government that will be able to take care of the Palestinians themselves. Sound quite easy, don't it?

Arye

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I know that it is sound terrible, but if killing this murderer means less suicide attacks against Israel, I think that the death of innocence Palestinians citizens is something we can't prevent.

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Not only does it sound terrible Arye, but you are surely wrong: killing this man, plus a 14 year old, and injuring many others, will mean more suicide attacks against Israel, not less!

Justice can only be done with the support of the people, and this kind of 'justice' meated out by the Israeli Army, will never have the support of the Palestinian people any more than their kind of 'justice' (suicide bombing of their 'oppressors' and the occupiers of their homeland) will ever be acceptable to you.

Neither is acceptable to civilised human beings, but you have to stop what your side is doing before you can bleat on about what the other side is doing. Effect what you can effect, and maybe it will effect what you can't. There is nothing to lose, because the situation can only get worse if you all carry on the way you are going.