The USA changes the Middle East
Posted by: Arye_Gur on 11 January 2004
Asad goes to visit to Turkey – a country his father didn’t visit for dozens of years.
Asad asks to talk peace with Israel.
Kadafi is talking with Israeli officials.
From your point there – what do you think about the situation?
Arye
Asad asks to talk peace with Israel.
Kadafi is talking with Israeli officials.
From your point there – what do you think about the situation?
Arye
Posted on: 09 February 2004 by Arye_Gur
Patrick,
If you can follow the responses of Israel to the suicide attacks, you will find that many times Israel didn't response to several attacks - but it only brought more and more attacks. We are talking about our lives. If we can ignore the past - at least for several months, what do you think both sided must do now in order to stop the situation here?
Arye
If you can follow the responses of Israel to the suicide attacks, you will find that many times Israel didn't response to several attacks - but it only brought more and more attacks. We are talking about our lives. If we can ignore the past - at least for several months, what do you think both sided must do now in order to stop the situation here?
Arye
Posted on: 09 February 2004 by Harvey
Arye before I get thrown off the scent by answering your question, didn't notice if you'd answered mine. Any chance? Just to remind you:
As to what to do, do I take it that you understand that killing innocents feeds hatred which leads to a rich supply of desperate and committed people willing to die and kill to see, if not better terms for their people, at least a living hell for the people of Israel. I would love to know if you even accept this basic idea. Before you state that the PA must stop suicide bombings before Israel does anything let's just agree that they have been so undermined and under-resourced that they'd have difficulty apprehending a kid for raiding an orchard and let's just imagine that the Israel has the balls and the desire to to see a just, equitable and durable solution to this mess without bollocks preconditions.
The stated halt to Israel's policies of targeted assasinations, collective punishment, land seizures, settlement expansion and fence construction would at least provide a backdrop against which real negotiations with the Palestinian leadership, as respected equals, as partners, not as some subservient dogs who may or may not be to your liking, could take place on the future shape of both Israeli and Palestinian state. That's the start.
To your credit Ayre, if you're being genuine, at least you're asking the question. Successive Israeli governments have poured scorn on opinions and offers of help from anybody but the US, and even that is only when they agree with their opinion. If ever a situation demanded a powerful, independent mutually accepted third party, this has to be it. Get a team of those lovely Norwegian/Swedish mediators in there. You can't have a problem with them surely? What do you say?
Justin
Man you've got to let a medic have a look at that bag of chips on your shoulder. My mother is American, 4th daughter of 6 kids, more cousins, aunts and uncles than I can shake a stick at and as I've stated to you in a previous post, she and pretty much all of my US cousins despair of the impression given abroad by people like yourself. Failure to join you in your unquestioning support of the shocking policies of the Israeli state and this administration's dubious plans in the wider Middle East, doesn't mean that I or any of my family love the US any less than you. It could actually be argued that by letting others know that the people of the US haven't all turned into a marauding group of jingoistic neocons, we may actually help to stem the explosion of global anti-US feeling that this adminstration and opinions like yours have
engendered.
My statement regarding funds flowing from the US to the IRA coffers is a matter of fact I'm afraid. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some of my uncles hadn't thrown some cash in a bucket in the local INF. I'm not proud of it, it's wrong and I am the first to condemn it, but I'm not about to cry about it.
quote:
when you see blunt and patently counter-productive policies like this being carried out month after month,in your name, do you or anybody that you know who's half sensible, actually feel any safer, happier or think that it's taking you even one step of the way towards solving this mess?
As to what to do, do I take it that you understand that killing innocents feeds hatred which leads to a rich supply of desperate and committed people willing to die and kill to see, if not better terms for their people, at least a living hell for the people of Israel. I would love to know if you even accept this basic idea. Before you state that the PA must stop suicide bombings before Israel does anything let's just agree that they have been so undermined and under-resourced that they'd have difficulty apprehending a kid for raiding an orchard and let's just imagine that the Israel has the balls and the desire to to see a just, equitable and durable solution to this mess without bollocks preconditions.
The stated halt to Israel's policies of targeted assasinations, collective punishment, land seizures, settlement expansion and fence construction would at least provide a backdrop against which real negotiations with the Palestinian leadership, as respected equals, as partners, not as some subservient dogs who may or may not be to your liking, could take place on the future shape of both Israeli and Palestinian state. That's the start.
To your credit Ayre, if you're being genuine, at least you're asking the question. Successive Israeli governments have poured scorn on opinions and offers of help from anybody but the US, and even that is only when they agree with their opinion. If ever a situation demanded a powerful, independent mutually accepted third party, this has to be it. Get a team of those lovely Norwegian/Swedish mediators in there. You can't have a problem with them surely? What do you say?
Justin
Man you've got to let a medic have a look at that bag of chips on your shoulder. My mother is American, 4th daughter of 6 kids, more cousins, aunts and uncles than I can shake a stick at and as I've stated to you in a previous post, she and pretty much all of my US cousins despair of the impression given abroad by people like yourself. Failure to join you in your unquestioning support of the shocking policies of the Israeli state and this administration's dubious plans in the wider Middle East, doesn't mean that I or any of my family love the US any less than you. It could actually be argued that by letting others know that the people of the US haven't all turned into a marauding group of jingoistic neocons, we may actually help to stem the explosion of global anti-US feeling that this adminstration and opinions like yours have
engendered.
My statement regarding funds flowing from the US to the IRA coffers is a matter of fact I'm afraid. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some of my uncles hadn't thrown some cash in a bucket in the local INF. I'm not proud of it, it's wrong and I am the first to condemn it, but I'm not about to cry about it.
Posted on: 09 February 2004 by Justin
quote:
Originally posted by Harvey:
Justin
Man you've got to let a medic have a look at that bag of chips on your shoulder. My mother is American, 4th daughter of 6 kids, more cousins, aunts and uncles than I can shake a stick at and as I've stated to you in a previous post, she and pretty much all of my US cousins despair of the impression given abroad by people like yourself. Failure to join you in your unquestioning support of the shocking policies of the Israeli state and this administration's dubious plans in the wider Middle East, doesn't mean that I or any of my family love the US any less than you. It could actually be argued that by letting others know that the people of the US haven't all turned into a marauding group of jingoistic neocons, we may actually help to stem the explosion of global anti-US feeling that this adminstration and opinions like yours have
engendered.
.
Thanks for making my point. This thread was not about the US. But you decided to throw in a jab anyway. I said "stop throwing jabs where they don't belong" and then you go on a tirade about how US foreign policy is destroying thw world. All of that may be true, but it was not relevant in this thread (at least not at the time you decided to throw the jab).
I know I know. You have lots of Jewish friends also. So what!!!!! Stick to the issues at hand - I'm not throwing around the Falklands, am I? It's not relevant.
Judd
Posted on: 09 February 2004 by Justin
BTW, Harvey,
Rather than simply admit that your allegation of US involvement in NI terrorism is not relevant to a conversation about the conflict between Isreal and Palestine, you decided to personally insult me.
Judd
Rather than simply admit that your allegation of US involvement in NI terrorism is not relevant to a conversation about the conflict between Isreal and Palestine, you decided to personally insult me.
Judd
Posted on: 09 February 2004 by Arye_Gur
Harvey,
To answer your question, for the last 3 years, I think that the power of Israel is what keeping us here. It is difficult to tell now if moral here is stronger than power, but as I see it, power is what we need. I have many questions to my government about "how did we arrive to this situation", I'm sure we could do a lot better in the last 35 years. But when you are looking at the situation these days, I don't know what we can do better. I say again, the Palestinian authority doesn't act as it should. They have (and they can!) to take a full control of their territory. As Arafat doesn't want to fight against the terror organizations, I can't see a way for Israel to act without hearting the innocent PA civilians - not in purpose, but as it goes in war. The PA terrorists are using the PA as a shield - and the PA civilians (maybe they can't) don't fight against these terrorists. It is a fact that we are standing against terrorist and it is a fact they don't want to talk peace with us, and it is a fact that Arafat doesn't want to stop the terror from his territory and his people.
Arye
To answer your question, for the last 3 years, I think that the power of Israel is what keeping us here. It is difficult to tell now if moral here is stronger than power, but as I see it, power is what we need. I have many questions to my government about "how did we arrive to this situation", I'm sure we could do a lot better in the last 35 years. But when you are looking at the situation these days, I don't know what we can do better. I say again, the Palestinian authority doesn't act as it should. They have (and they can!) to take a full control of their territory. As Arafat doesn't want to fight against the terror organizations, I can't see a way for Israel to act without hearting the innocent PA civilians - not in purpose, but as it goes in war. The PA terrorists are using the PA as a shield - and the PA civilians (maybe they can't) don't fight against these terrorists. It is a fact that we are standing against terrorist and it is a fact they don't want to talk peace with us, and it is a fact that Arafat doesn't want to stop the terror from his territory and his people.
Arye
Posted on: 10 February 2004 by bigmick
quote:
I'll also express my unhappiness with Arafat's rejection of the borders set down by Camp David (was it Camp David or Dayton, I can't recall now).
Can you just clarify, is this the Barak plan that you are referring to here?
Posted on: 10 February 2004 by Harvey
Sorry Justin I had no idea that you were such a delicate flower. I can’t see where I personally insulted you or said anything factually incorrect. My original point was clearly that there was a clear link between killing innocent Palestinians and more dead innocent Israelis. I had hoped that you and Arye would let us know if you grasped this concept. Naturally you leapt at the chance to sidestep the issue and make a big deal out of an aside that I made. My subsequent point to you, which incredulously you also failed to grasp, was that considering that I am so heavily allied to the US, my factually correct aside was not a random sidewipe at the entire US nation, but instead a valid criticism of those, my family included, who thought there to be any justification in meddling in, or providing succour to, an organisation which sought to achieve it’s means through terrorism. I’ve always thought that there should be a United Ireland, but along the way I’ve thought it more important that the Catholics should have parity with their Protestant neighbours. I didn’t at time think that violence was the answer. On some level, actually, there are actually parallels and maybe lessons to be learnt from the Irish situation, so it seems that my aside has a relevance. Maybe the US should stop inappropriate meddling, cut Israel loose, stop pumping ludicrous amounts of money into their military and stop rubber stamping their barbaric policies.
Justin we can discuss the Falklands if you want. Britain has made a ton of mistakes, most countries have. The sad thing is when folk think that wrapping themselves up in the flag and green lighting every policy, no matter how despicable or wrong, makes them greater patriots and anyone who disagrees is, what was it you called someone, an apologist or an appeaser.
Do I have lots of Jewish friends? It's either news to me or something else that you're wrong about. Looking at form, I'll plump for the latter. I know a few Jewish people through work and a neighbour and only one shows an inclination to express a strong opinion and he, like Arye, reckons that the Palestinians should continue to be killed nutil they see fit to put forward a leader that Israel approves of. Funny that; given Sharon's record on the murder, criminal and serial liar front, I should have thought that he and Arafat were a perfect match and the Israeli electorate most ill-equiped to judge anyone else's choice of leader. I think that equating Jews with Israelis is most unkind to the Jews that I have met, so answering the question that perhaps you meant to ask; I know one Israeli on a fairly personal basis. He does some work for me, has a good sense of humour and seems a nice man. He has always seemed disinclined to discuss Israel, stating only that he is glad to be out of it and despairs of the whole situation. So what!!!! An optimistic question. What was your point?
Justin we can discuss the Falklands if you want. Britain has made a ton of mistakes, most countries have. The sad thing is when folk think that wrapping themselves up in the flag and green lighting every policy, no matter how despicable or wrong, makes them greater patriots and anyone who disagrees is, what was it you called someone, an apologist or an appeaser.
Do I have lots of Jewish friends? It's either news to me or something else that you're wrong about. Looking at form, I'll plump for the latter. I know a few Jewish people through work and a neighbour and only one shows an inclination to express a strong opinion and he, like Arye, reckons that the Palestinians should continue to be killed nutil they see fit to put forward a leader that Israel approves of. Funny that; given Sharon's record on the murder, criminal and serial liar front, I should have thought that he and Arafat were a perfect match and the Israeli electorate most ill-equiped to judge anyone else's choice of leader. I think that equating Jews with Israelis is most unkind to the Jews that I have met, so answering the question that perhaps you meant to ask; I know one Israeli on a fairly personal basis. He does some work for me, has a good sense of humour and seems a nice man. He has always seemed disinclined to discuss Israel, stating only that he is glad to be out of it and despairs of the whole situation. So what!!!! An optimistic question. What was your point?
Posted on: 10 February 2004 by Harvey
Arye, you should be a politician. You are singularly incapable of answering one simple question. Do you see the link yet?
For pities sake change the record on the PA. Your leadership is equally revolting and inherently corrupt. Stop looking for easy obstacles and instead turn your energies to taking a brave first step to peace.
Interesting that you asked a question, I offered a few suggestions and you had not one word to say on them. Maybe your request wasn't so genuine after all? Your government would be proud.
I think that kids killed in buses, or discotheques is barbaric and a bloody tragedy, just like the kids killed while they sleep or on their way home from school. It's the fact that you judge the Hamas policy murderous and depraved and the Israeli policy as necessary and perfectly acceptable that reveals your true nature. Both are insidious and neither Palestinian nor Israeli kids deserve to be blown to pieces and have snivelling weasels like you proffer cliches to excuse their deaths.
For pities sake change the record on the PA. Your leadership is equally revolting and inherently corrupt. Stop looking for easy obstacles and instead turn your energies to taking a brave first step to peace.
Interesting that you asked a question, I offered a few suggestions and you had not one word to say on them. Maybe your request wasn't so genuine after all? Your government would be proud.
I think that kids killed in buses, or discotheques is barbaric and a bloody tragedy, just like the kids killed while they sleep or on their way home from school. It's the fact that you judge the Hamas policy murderous and depraved and the Israeli policy as necessary and perfectly acceptable that reveals your true nature. Both are insidious and neither Palestinian nor Israeli kids deserve to be blown to pieces and have snivelling weasels like you proffer cliches to excuse their deaths.
Posted on: 10 February 2004 by Berlin Fritz
You get used to it after awhile, then it's just a question of who's keeping who
out/in depending on your prejudices, innit ?
Fritz Von Itjustdoesn'twork³
out/in depending on your prejudices, innit ?
Fritz Von Itjustdoesn'twork³
Posted on: 10 February 2004 by Arye_Gur
Harvey,
I said it before and I say it now - I think that Israel must evacuate all the settlements in the occupied territories. I hate these settlements and I really think they are a great obstacle to peace.
Arye
I said it before and I say it now - I think that Israel must evacuate all the settlements in the occupied territories. I hate these settlements and I really think they are a great obstacle to peace.
Arye
Posted on: 10 February 2004 by Berlin Fritz
Ayre & Mates, this is an example of how good life can be, Minky will back me up I'm sure ?
Have Fun:
Fritz Von Israelfatigue³
http://www.natureandco.co.nz/index.php3
Have Fun:
Fritz Von Israelfatigue³
http://www.natureandco.co.nz/index.php3
Posted on: 10 February 2004 by Justin
Harvey, please.
My question was rhetorical. i don't care whether you have Jewish or American friends or not. As if the notion were at all relevant!!!
I'm not getting through to you. It's my fault. I'll let this discussion play itself out.
Judd
My question was rhetorical. i don't care whether you have Jewish or American friends or not. As if the notion were at all relevant!!!
I'm not getting through to you. It's my fault. I'll let this discussion play itself out.
Judd
Posted on: 10 February 2004 by bigmick
Justin
This map and peace accord that you'd like revisited. Can you clarify if this is the Barak plan?
This map and peace accord that you'd like revisited. Can you clarify if this is the Barak plan?
Posted on: 10 February 2004 by Justin
Oh sorry bigmick. i didn't see your question. I'll have to look and see. I have not looked in a long time, and my recollection was that I was scratching my head at the time, but I'll have to wade through all this and see - there are so many plans and maps that I don't want to speak too soon.
Judd
Judd
Judd
Judd
Posted on: 10 February 2004 by bigmick
When Mugabe is criticised for his policies he decries protests as being anti-black and colonial.
Rabid Muslim clerics inciting violence who are quite rightly closed down bundled off decry the authorities and their critics as being anti-Islam.
Critics of Israel's antics are condemned as being anti-Semites.
People who criticise the US for failing to condemn and call for a halt to Israel more abhorent policies and for pumping defence money and military might into a region which could do with much less, well we get called all sorts of names, as you know, and we get accused of being aggressively anti-US.
The pattern is obvious but I'll spell it out. In all of these situations, something very wrong and morally repugnant is going down. These practices offend broad swathes of the civilised world. The malfeasors and their supporters are neither stupid nor ignorant of the true nature of their deeds. But they are driven by greed, hatred, power and other lovely things and will try and say anything to hold onto their ill-gotten gains. They stonewall and repeat the same vacuous nonsense until they retreat to using the wide brush to tar their critics. It lapses into high-farce when you're accusing Harvey, by my reckoning half-American and apparently stating that he adores the US, as not missing an opportunity to have a jibe at the US. It seems that by kicking up a fuss over nothing, and trying to muddle the issue, you've only served to shine a bright light on yourself. Nice one.
Rabid Muslim clerics inciting violence who are quite rightly closed down bundled off decry the authorities and their critics as being anti-Islam.
Critics of Israel's antics are condemned as being anti-Semites.
People who criticise the US for failing to condemn and call for a halt to Israel more abhorent policies and for pumping defence money and military might into a region which could do with much less, well we get called all sorts of names, as you know, and we get accused of being aggressively anti-US.
The pattern is obvious but I'll spell it out. In all of these situations, something very wrong and morally repugnant is going down. These practices offend broad swathes of the civilised world. The malfeasors and their supporters are neither stupid nor ignorant of the true nature of their deeds. But they are driven by greed, hatred, power and other lovely things and will try and say anything to hold onto their ill-gotten gains. They stonewall and repeat the same vacuous nonsense until they retreat to using the wide brush to tar their critics. It lapses into high-farce when you're accusing Harvey, by my reckoning half-American and apparently stating that he adores the US, as not missing an opportunity to have a jibe at the US. It seems that by kicking up a fuss over nothing, and trying to muddle the issue, you've only served to shine a bright light on yourself. Nice one.
Posted on: 10 February 2004 by Justin
BigMick,
Read what I've written, not what you expect me to write. Your tirades are ridiculous.
I'm not accusing Harvey of being anti-American for taking a position against America (I'm happy to debate him on the merits). I'm dissapointed in this rhetorical style, which consisted in this case of taking a jab on a collateral issue - totally unrelated to the discussion at hand.
Is the US relevant to this discussion? Yes. Are US policies partly to blame for some of the ills in the middle east? yes. Am I happy to debate them on he merits? yes. But Harvey didn't mean to open a discussion regarding the US role in the Israeli/Paletinian conflict. Rather, he simply took a pot-shot on a collateral issue in the course of making an otherwise (very) relavent argument. This little, unsupported jibe is, as you say, not worth the "fuss". Can't agree more. But these ad hoc attacks accumulate and drive out real arguments like bad money drives out good.
As I said, the alleged US support of the IRA is about as relevant to this discussion as the UK involvment in the Faulklands - which is to say, NOT AT ALL.
Your obvious loathing of me personally has clouded your ability to see what I've actually written on this thread (or the others). I'm not defending US policy on this thread (or even on the last one we blew up on each other on). You seem to think that because I live in Ohio, I somehow think the US can do no wrong.
And what is with your and Harvey's penchant to judge the merits of ones argument by how many friends in the US (or Israel or wherever) he has. Nothing could be less important. Whether Harvey took a gratuitous jibe at the US in a discussion that had nothing to do with it, is not informed at all by whether Harvey had family here. Who cares!!!! Got, It's like prefacing every argument against affirmative action by stating that you have lot's of black friends. WHO CARES!!! stick to the merits and you'll be fine.
I'll ignore the rest of your post. It bears no relation to my actual positions on this issue at all. It's 2 parts straw man argument and 3 parts bile.
Judd
Read what I've written, not what you expect me to write. Your tirades are ridiculous.
I'm not accusing Harvey of being anti-American for taking a position against America (I'm happy to debate him on the merits). I'm dissapointed in this rhetorical style, which consisted in this case of taking a jab on a collateral issue - totally unrelated to the discussion at hand.
Is the US relevant to this discussion? Yes. Are US policies partly to blame for some of the ills in the middle east? yes. Am I happy to debate them on he merits? yes. But Harvey didn't mean to open a discussion regarding the US role in the Israeli/Paletinian conflict. Rather, he simply took a pot-shot on a collateral issue in the course of making an otherwise (very) relavent argument. This little, unsupported jibe is, as you say, not worth the "fuss". Can't agree more. But these ad hoc attacks accumulate and drive out real arguments like bad money drives out good.
As I said, the alleged US support of the IRA is about as relevant to this discussion as the UK involvment in the Faulklands - which is to say, NOT AT ALL.
Your obvious loathing of me personally has clouded your ability to see what I've actually written on this thread (or the others). I'm not defending US policy on this thread (or even on the last one we blew up on each other on). You seem to think that because I live in Ohio, I somehow think the US can do no wrong.
And what is with your and Harvey's penchant to judge the merits of ones argument by how many friends in the US (or Israel or wherever) he has. Nothing could be less important. Whether Harvey took a gratuitous jibe at the US in a discussion that had nothing to do with it, is not informed at all by whether Harvey had family here. Who cares!!!! Got, It's like prefacing every argument against affirmative action by stating that you have lot's of black friends. WHO CARES!!! stick to the merits and you'll be fine.
I'll ignore the rest of your post. It bears no relation to my actual positions on this issue at all. It's 2 parts straw man argument and 3 parts bile.
Judd
Posted on: 10 February 2004 by Justin
pardon my spelling. I know that's important for some of you.
Judd
Judd
Posted on: 11 February 2004 by bigmick
Calm down Justin, you come off as very defensive and hopelessly insecure. Hot words may be exchanged in the heat of argument, but I can assure you that I don't loathe you at all. I do loathe your empty arguments and despair at your lack of vision, no matter which words you choose to use or how you spell them, but that is not you and maybe you'll see, experience or read something that will convince you that violence rarely solves anything. Love the sinner, hate the sin.
The merits of my arguments have nothing to do with a head count of American friends, they rest simply in the belief that the policy of murder, oppression, theft and collective punishment in the Middle East, as executed by Israel and bankrolled and sanctioned by the US is intrinsically wrong, ineffective and seems to be lacking real strategy or any discernible endpoint.
FYI, in principle, there are many similarities between the NI and Israel situation, including the negative impact of wrongheaded third party interference, and a ton of lessons to be learnt if there is to be any progression towards peace.
I think if you stop whinging that your critics are being anti-American and actually addres the issues then they may not feel the need to provide state their pro-American credentials to prove the fatuousness of your claims. I explained this in my last post but then you chose to ignore what you didn't want to hear.
The merits of my arguments have nothing to do with a head count of American friends, they rest simply in the belief that the policy of murder, oppression, theft and collective punishment in the Middle East, as executed by Israel and bankrolled and sanctioned by the US is intrinsically wrong, ineffective and seems to be lacking real strategy or any discernible endpoint.
FYI, in principle, there are many similarities between the NI and Israel situation, including the negative impact of wrongheaded third party interference, and a ton of lessons to be learnt if there is to be any progression towards peace.
I think if you stop whinging that your critics are being anti-American and actually addres the issues then they may not feel the need to provide state their pro-American credentials to prove the fatuousness of your claims. I explained this in my last post but then you chose to ignore what you didn't want to hear.
Posted on: 11 February 2004 by Berlin Fritz
Ayre old son,
Have you ever travelled outside your beloved land ?
Fritz Von Curious ?
Ps: e.g. Palestine, Arabian Countries ?
Have you ever travelled outside your beloved land ?
Fritz Von Curious ?
Ps: e.g. Palestine, Arabian Countries ?
Posted on: 12 February 2004 by Harvey
quote:
I'm not getting through to you. It's my fault.
Just to wrap this up and not leave it hanging, you're right in saying that your notion is not getting through to me.
You're wrong, in that it's not your fault, it's the argument that's broken. Neither history nor logic supports the idea that either the Israelis or anyone else can kill their way to peace. Maybe we should just leave it and see who history proves right?
Posted on: 12 February 2004 by Justin
quote:
Originally posted by Harvey:
You're wrong, in that it's not your fault, it's the argument that's broken. Neither history nor logic supports the idea that either the Israelis or anyone else can kill their way to peace. Maybe we should just leave it and see who history proves right?
I have not made this argument, Harvey. Part of my problem in this thread is that you are attributing positions to me that I have not taken. Have a look through the thread again and point to where I have made this argument.
Judd
Posted on: 12 February 2004 by Harvey
I must be totally mistaken. I had no idea that you found the killing of all innocents by both Palestinian extremists and the IDF to be repugnant on every level, utterly indefensible and that you believed that all such attacks should stop immediately, what with them being counter-productive in the quest for peace. I was under the impression that you had argued for a permissible innocent body count in targeted attacks.
If I was mistaken in this regard, then of course you have my apologies.
If I was mistaken in this regard, then of course you have my apologies.
Posted on: 12 February 2004 by Justin
quote:
Originally posted by Harvey:
I must be totally mistaken. I had no idea that you found the killing of all innocents by both Palestinian extremists and the IDF to be repugnant on every level, utterly indefensible and that you believed that all such attacks should stop immediately, what with them being counter-productive in the quest for peace. I was under the impression that you had argued for a permissible innocent body count in targeted attacks.
If I was mistaken in this regard, then of course you have my apologies.
I wish i had time to respond to this fully right now. Maybe later this evening after the youngster is asleep.
judd
Posted on: 12 February 2004 by bigmick
Oh Harvey
Ye of too much faith. I can't believe that you're buying this "Road To Damascus" nonsense.
I hope that it turns out that I'm doing Justin or Judd a grave injustice, but from what I can bear to recall of his previous posts, I predict that a firm of Cleveland goalpost movers will receive a very lucrative order this very evening, that a convoluted, but carefully couched, statement will follow and that your apology will not be required.
As I inferred, it would be nice to be wrong.
Justin, I'm guessing that you're still wading through stuff to find out which peace plan it was that you advocated in an earlier post as the best solution to the current situation. Any chance of nailing this at all?
Ye of too much faith. I can't believe that you're buying this "Road To Damascus" nonsense.
I hope that it turns out that I'm doing Justin or Judd a grave injustice, but from what I can bear to recall of his previous posts, I predict that a firm of Cleveland goalpost movers will receive a very lucrative order this very evening, that a convoluted, but carefully couched, statement will follow and that your apology will not be required.
As I inferred, it would be nice to be wrong.
Justin, I'm guessing that you're still wading through stuff to find out which peace plan it was that you advocated in an earlier post as the best solution to the current situation. Any chance of nailing this at all?
Posted on: 12 February 2004 by Justin
quote:
Originally posted by bigmick:
Oh Harvey
Ye of too much faith. I can't believe that you're buying this "Road To Damascus" nonsense.
I hope that it turns out that I'm doing Justin or Judd a grave injustice, but from what I can bear to recall of his previous posts, I predict that a firm of Cleveland goalpost movers will receive a very lucrative order this very evening, that a convoluted, but carefully couched, statement will follow and that your apology will not be required.
As I inferred, it would be nice to be wrong.
Justin, I'm guessing that you're still wading through stuff to find out which peace plan it was that you advocated in an earlier post as the best solution to the current situation. Any chance of nailing this at all?
This is unfair, BigMick. I'm not wading through anything. My wife is going out tonight and I'm got full responsibility for the youngster. Nothing more sinister than that. Until he's asleep, I just have time for these meaningless snipits.
The plan I was referring to is Camp David II, as I recall. I don't know if it was Barak or who? I haven't looked - and frankly forgot. And do you care anyway? really?
As you are keen to tie my hands regarding the use of extraneous sources, I'll promise now not to make any substantive arguments on the issues at all - would this satisfy you?
Judd