Serial music - recommendations please

Berg's Violin Concerto and Webern's String Quartets.

Fred

Dear jcs,

I saw this and the Jonny Thread, and thought you would struggles to kick even one Thread on serious music of the Mid-twentieth Century off.

As a kid in the early '70s, I used to listen to an awful lot of it in the evening on Radio Three. I never understood it, but listened as an innocent to Music Concrete and so forth, while other more normal kids were listening to Radio One or Luxembourg.

The trouble for me was that I was also listening to the classics as well, and my preferences went that way.

Even some of the greatest performing musiciians of the Twentieth Century admitted to having no comprehension of what was being driven at. I guess Pierre Boulez has a complete grip of it, but the problem is that the auddience is still in the main baffled by it.

Good luck with your hunt, but in my experience it is a very stoney path your attempting to traverse.

The Berg Violin Concert is lovely, but it is the only piece in the style that made any sense to me...

ATB from Fredrik

Igor Stravinsky
Arvo Part
Morton Feldman
or:
http://artofthestates.org/cgi-bin/piece.pl?pid=6

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
The Berg Violin Concert is lovely, but it is the only piece in the style that made any sense to me...

That's because it masterfully straddles tonality and atonality.

As you can see above, I recommend this, too.

Fred

Dear Fred,

It must be the tonal bit of this stoddling that I like then! I have been to two concerts of it, but a fortnight apart and played by the same people! Once in the Royal albert Hall, and then in the Worcester Three Choirs Festival. I can't remember the soloist, but it was the BBC Philharmonic (Manchester based) Orchestra under Edward Downes.

Can you suggest a fine version on records for me!

All the best from Fredrik.

Fredrik, I haven't researched it thoroughly beyond the version I've heard, but it sounds great to me and the reviews I've read are very favorable, some claiming it's definitely the one to get: Arthur Grumiaux with the Amsterdam Concertbouw Orchestra (Philips).

Unfortunately, it seems to be out of print. I've found a couple of LPs on eBay, including this one: http://tinyurl.com/euvg6
Good price, near mint condition, will ship internationally.

All best,
Fred

Dear Fred,

I have done without a recording till now, though I do know the music quite well for some reason! Grumiaux is a lovely fiddler so I can wait till it is issued again!

I just parted with my last LPs and 78s, and sold my TT, so I can't get the eBay record. I have got my interest up now, so I'll look out for an alternative CD next time I am in the lovely shop we still have in Hereford.

Thanks from Fredrik

The problem I have with Berg and probably Webern is the tonality. I want stuff that is atonal, austere, intellectual and totally unlyruical. If I wanted lyrical, melodic stuff I would turn to lovers rock for example.
I realise I may have a problem here in that orchestras, string quartets, etc as well as being out of my musical voculabary tend towards harmony, lushness and all the stuff I don't want. I may have to stick with Stockhausen - I think Hymnen, Gesang Der Junglinge, Kontrapunkte and Unsichtbare Chor are just awesome or Varese - Hyperprism and Octandre are amazing. They may not be 12 tone rows - I'm not sure, I don't know enough about the technical aspects of music to know or frankly to care. I just would like to find more stuff that is austere, maybe caucophanous and certainly the sort of stuff most people say, what the hell is that? If it's a piece of music for frying pan, gong and motorbike, recorded from a helicopter wll now we're talking.

Oh and by the way, Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Dear jcs,

I saw this and the Jonny Thread, and thought you would struggles to kick even one Thread on serious music of the Mid-twentieth Century off.

Uh?

Dear jcs,

I am afraid I don't understand, "uh," so please would you be kind enough to expand in English so I can decide whether I should try to reply or just leave it at that.

Fredrik

PS Typo: 'understanf,' corrected to to 'understand' to make the meaning clear. Sorry.

I know it's a typo but I'm not sure what you mean. Is it addressed to me or is it the generic you?

Webern too tonal? Try his cantatas. If you want serialism, listen to Schoenberg; he did, after all, devise the technique.

If you really want something cacophonous that will frighten the horses, try Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music.

Mark S

quote:

Originally posted by cider glider:
If you really want something cacophonous that will frighten the horses, try Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music.

Mark S

Metal Machine Music is ok - Stockhausen, LaMonte Young and Charlemane Palestine are much better though.

As to Schoenberg,any recommendations?

quote:

Originally posted by jcs_smith:
I just would like to find more stuff that is austere, maybe caucophanous and certainly the sort of stuff most people say, what the hell is that? If it's a piece of music for frying pan, gong and motorbike, recorded from a helicopter wll now we're talking.

Cacophony, eh?

OK, then head straight for these albums, and never mind the genre label:

Ascension - John Coltrane



Zero Tolerance for Silence - Pat Metheny



Good stuff; check it out.

Fred

quote:

Originally posted by jcs_smith:

As to Schoenberg,any recommendations?

His first excursion in serialism is in his Opus 23.

Mark S

I had a similar interest in 20th C music. I found some of it good and some too difficult for me. I did hear radio late one night recently a piece Copeland had experimented with at his studio in Lake George in New York to exploer serialism. It was for piano and string Qt. The name escapes me, but it was simply beautiful. I've not found a copy of it. Once visiting someone in San Francisco, when CDs were new, he was playing some incredible stuff, said it was by Webern, but they were all slow movements so not the agressive faster ones and he was uninterested in giving me the titles, he was a prickly character I chose not to keep in contact with. Still it piqued my interest. I've heard Boulez conduct his works twice now at the Ojai Music Festival with speakers in the trees and players moving around the crowd for a 3D effect. I bought one of his called Reponse. I still play it at night once in a while, it's quite stunning. I also heard a concert at his home base in Paris the Intercontemporain where the hall is set up for 3D events, but jet lag was a bitch to overcome that night. I have found his mentor Messian too dense and diffucult tho astonishing moments. Still this is not pure serialism the way it was meant to be.

I do like Esa-Pekka Salonen's compositions, especially Wing on Wing and Insomnia are fantastic. Tho in a radio interview he said he studied serial music in Finland, but when he really tried to compose in it he rebelled and went tonal because of his love for Stravinsky LOL Pure tonal joy. His works are unique, try him out, he creates sound clusters that evolve and dissipate in fantastic aural experiences, cool, austere and vibrant. I really enjoy his conducting at Disney Hall in LA. I hear he's looking at opera librettos, I hope he gets a good one.

You might also be interested in two operas, Wozzek and Lulu, both stunning works by Schoenberg's students. and Schoenberg composed Guerrelieder for orchestra and voices, tho before his serialism controlled everything i'ts pretty fantastic, I have it on vinyl. it has one of the most fanatastic beginnings of anything ever recorded. It just shimmers.

Wolf, though it's unlikely I'll be exploring serial music in any depth, your post almost encourages me to try. Excellent stuff!

quote:

Originally posted by Wolf:
You might also be interested in two operas, Wozzek and Lulu, both stunning works by Schoenberg's students. and Schoenberg composed Guerrelieder for orchestra and voices, tho before his serialism controlled everything i'ts pretty fantastic, I have it on vinyl. it has one of the most fanatastic beginnings of anything ever recorded. It just shimmers.

For what it's worth, Chandos has just issued a new recording of Lulu on their Opera in English label at budget price from ENO with Paul Daniel (who has been rather good when I've heard him live) conducting - I haven't got round to purchasing the set though, so I can't comment on it.



regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:


Cacophony, eh?

OK, then head straight for these albums, and never mind the genre label:

Ascension - John Coltrane



Zero Tolerance for Silence - Pat Metheny



Good stuff; check it out.

Fred

Not a huge fan of Coltrane but Ascension is definitely one of my least favourites. I also think A Love Supreme is vastly overrated. My favourite is Live at the village vanguard again
Don't know that Metheney album

quote:

Originally posted by jcs_smith:
Not a huge fan of Coltrane but Ascension is definitely one of my least favourites. I also think A Love Supreme is vastly overrated. My favourite is Live at the village vanguard again
Don't know that Metheney album

Does that mean there's a second such album? I have the 4 disc set from 1961 which I love (and is my favourite Coltrane album - but the only other two I have are Blue Train and Giant Steps). If so, how does 'again' compare?

regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by jcs_smith:
I also think A Love Supreme is vastly overrated.

Huh?! Say wha?!

Honestly, sometimes I just don't understand these Earthlings.

Fred

Dear Fred!

Neither do I! I can only end in tears, trying to speculatively translate, so I give up!

Fredrik

Dear Munch

I do sleep, but I must be careful to avoid going to sleep to early or else I revert to day shift and wake up about 5 or 6 am, and that is not good, because I am alive like a bird then, and to imagine me still so fine by 10 pm, is hard even for me! So my cut off is about 3 am to try to go to bed, and rise is about 11 am...

Naturally, I tend rise about 5 am even on holiday, which is lovely if I am in the mountains in Norway, because I can go for a very long walk before anyone one else is about!

All the best from Fredrik

One day, Sir Thomas Beecham was asked if he had ever performed any Stockhausen, and replied,

"No, but I stepped in some once!"

Well, I would not quite go that far, but I think it might be fair to say that, having listened to a good deal of it when a youngster, it is not my cup of tea! [Smiley].

Fredrik

Dear Munch,

If I had a fifteen year old son who came home one night, I would want to know why I had not seen him for the last fifteen years!

Rather reminds me of my late Uncle George! He asked his kids why they never brought the grandchildren round. Timmy, the youngest and then unmarried, said to him,

"Pops, you can see mine any day, just walking down the street!" [In Gainsborough, as it happened].

I don't think the old boy was amused, at least according to my cousin Patricia!

Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by jcs_smith:
I also think A Love Supreme is vastly overrated.

May I ask why?

Fred