best cable for n-vi to sanyo plv-z3 projector

All else being equal the quality from DVI and component prog scan are quite capable of being on exactly the same level.

My n-Vi is hooked to a 1080P flat panel.... I tried both the HDMI option (exact same you're proposing) and the component.

I got better images on component.


The video scaling on my screen is as good as I can hope for... but it really shows the benefits of the superior analogue video processing circuitry in the n-Vi.


I'd default to component in your case for two reasons.... firstly it will definately look great. 2nd, there have been issues with compliancy between DVI outputs and HDMI ins on projectors... Component WILL work - HDMI from DVI may or may not.... and if you're burying cables then you don't want to be ripping them out and starting again, do you?

Mike, Hi and thanks for your response - really useful. Can I assume though, that if HDMI does work properly, it will look at least as great as component?

My dealer will be letting me have the HDMI cable and adaptor on trial basis and I can swap it for component if it's not working out...

Thanks again...

quote:

Originally posted by gloop:
Can I assume though, that if HDMI does work properly, it will look at least as great as component?

Err... nope.


Your opportunity for trial and error helps here... but look at it this way...

Whether you send your picture digitally to the projector or via analogue, the scaler in the projector still gets used to convert the image to the native resolution of the projector...

HOWEVER... the quality of what the scaler has to work with is all down to whichever of the two units does a superior job of converting the digital picture info into an image waiting to go through the scaler.

If that side of the picture processing in the Sanyo is as good as in the n-Vi then the HDMI image could look up to as good as the component feed... but unless the Sanyo has drastically superior image processing to the n-Vi (which I doubt) then it certainly won't look any better.


That's why I use component... on my display the image is noticeably superior to the DVI/HDMI route.

Hope that helps

Mike

Mike,

I am confused.

First, if to your eyes the component-fed picture is better than the digital fed-picture then fine, I can quite believe that.

I can also understand that the N-vi does a superb job of converting the data-stream off a dvd into an analogue signal for transmission via component. I presume the N-vi also has to convert the data stream off a dvd into a suitable digital stream to transmit via DVI/HDMI. I can quite believe it when you say that the analogue route through the N-vi generates a better picture than the digital route.

I thought that the N-vi output was some sort of Standard DVD eg 480p. This is where I am confused, because you seem to be implying that the N-vi has an in-built scaler. Is anybody able to clarify this?

Assuming that the N-vi only outputs an SD signal to the screen, I then understand that whichever signal you feed to your screen (digital oe analogue) it is the scaler in the screen that has to scale up to 1080p.

The quality od the picture would seem to depend on the effectiveness of the digital/analogue converter v the digital/digital converter in the N-vi.

As I said, I am confused.

Cheers

Don

Ok Don, here goes.... with a Video/Audio analogy to help....

NTSC DVD's are 480 line... Pal are 576

Any HD display device, screen/projector will have an in-built scaler to upscale SD material (576 or 480.. P or I) to the native resolution of that device.. be it 1920x1080, 1366x768 etc etc etc....

The n-vi de-interlaces and thus outputs either 480P or 576P through component/dvi....


To compare to audio, Cd's, in a similar fashion, carry 20Hz-20kHz frequency range.

The same way a CD555 sounds better playing the same cd as a CD5x, the n-Vi has an opportunity via component to put its' stamp on a picture by outputting a naim quaility picture.

Think of the projector fed by an n-Vi as a Supernait with a CD player hooked up to it...

You can connect a (non-naim) cd player to a Supernait digitally, or in the analogue domain... but the Pre/Power stage is doing an equatable job to the scaler in the projector... feeding signal eventually out to the destination component.... be it the display chip behind the lens, or a pair of speakers.

If you've got a non-naim cd player, by connecting digitally, you can gain naim quality digital to analogue conversion as well as a naim quality pre/amp.


Transpose this to the video domain.

Outputting DVI from an n-Vi lets an external DAC get involved... you have no choice about letting the picture be scaled by the projector... but if you use component output then at least you can be certain that the image the scaler in the projector has to work with is of the highest quality.

I hope this makes sense to you.

Mike

quote:

Outputting DVI from an n-Vi lets an external DAC get involved...

...only for analogue CRT projectors.

The biggest concern with LCD projectors is the quality of the built-in processing (scaling / de-interlacing as well as dither, given the limited range of addressable colors on most LCD displays). In no way is this to say that an LCD projector cannot look good, rather that the processing is significantly more important than your input type....

quote:

This is where I am confused, because you seem to be implying that the N-vi has an in-built scaler.

Mike,

Thanks for you patient respone above,

I have abstracted the quote from my earlier post so that I can take one step at a time.

Does the N-vi have a built-in scaler? or does it simply have digital-to-analogue and digital-to-digital converters, both of which need to be (externally) scaled up to 1080p if used with a 1080p screen?

I understand there are several stand-alone scalers on the market, but most people seem to rely on the (cheap and chearful?) scaler built into their screen to do this job, or the scaler (if there is one) built into their dvd player.

Cheers

Don

Don... no the n-Vi doesn't have a built-in scaler.

As per the screens.... My Sharp 1080P XD1 panel has a very good scaler onboard.

A friend brought round his Denon 2930 (£600ish) dvd player... we ran this into my screen, using component and the n-Vi embarrased it.
Then hooked it up HDMI, outputting the native res of the disc (576P)... still not as good as 576P from the n-Vi

Then activated the upscaler on the Denon... got it to feed 1080P to the screen... just SLIGHTLY better than 576P from the same disc & player....
This confirmed that the scaler in the player was slightly better than that in the screen.

HOWEVER....

The n-Vi still gave a better picture.

Source First.

The scaler in the screen was certainly more than good enough to show how much better the picture from the n-Vi was over the same resolution (be it HDMI or Component) from the Denon.

That's why I got the n-vi... for the picture quality.

Ultimately I could get a better picture still with an offboard scaler sat between the screen & the n-Vi, but I wouldn't expect much change out of a couple of grand for something truly worthy... returning to audio analogies, it'd have to do to the system what a Hiline might do to a CDX2/202/200

Until then, the screen does an extraordinary job of scaling and I'm delighted with it, even if I know it can do better still with money spent on an extra box.

quote:

the n-Vi doesn't have a built-in scaler.

My confusion is evaporating (ie things are a lot clearer)

So, back to the original point. Why do you think you get a better picture from you N-vi with component. (BTW - I have no doubt at all that you do)

Cheers

Don

Basically, because:
a) The n-Vi's picture processing is better at converting a digital stream to a picture than my (very competent) screen is.

and
b) My screen's pretty competent internal scaler is capable of revealing the extra quality that the n-Vi chucks at it through this connection rather than its' internal processing when fed by DVI/HDMI

Ultimately it doesn't matter a lot to me - either cabling option was going to be the same price as its' alternative... just glad I had the choice as to which to use.

As a bonus, using component leaves both of my screen's HDMI sockets free... one for my V+ box to go into, and one free for whenever I pull my finger out and buy an Xbox360 Elite... Result!!!

Ok and thanks - I'm learning a lot here.

Oddly though, page E5 of the n-Vi's manual (showing the read panel and connections) includes the following:

"DVI Video output. Use for highest quality if supported by display."
"RGB and YPbPr Video outputs. Use only if higher quality alternatives not supported by display. See Table 5.3"

The table lists DVi as the preferred connection, RGB in second place.

That all seems to say quite emphatically the opposite - is that just wrong???

quote:

The n-Vi's picture processing is better at converting a digital stream to a picture than my (very competent) screen is.

Mike - are you forgetting to take into account that the digital projector (or LCD display in your case) is going to have to take that analog video signal and convert it back to digital again? Wouldn't it be better just to miss out the entire chain of digital-to-analog followed by analog-to-digital conversions?

Mike - I suspect with digital video you've got a whole slew of colour conversions taking place in your setup that you don't really need.

Firstly, the video data encoded on DVD is in component video format. Because the n-Vi uses DVI for it's digital connection it's restricted to digital RGB only (HDMI is more naturally oriented for component video but can do RGB as well to maintain compatibility with DVI). So you've got a colour space conversion from component video to RGB taking place inside the n-Vi before the signal leaves the box.

Secondly, I suspect the internal video processing in your panel works in the YUV colour space and therefore the digital RGB signal coming in from the n-Vi needs converting back from RGB to component video again before being processed.

Finally, all display technologies are ultimately RGB based so you've got a further colour space conversion post internal processing and before being sent to the panel drivers. Admittedly, even a component video feed into the display requires this final colour space conversion but it wouldn't have had to go through the two prior ones.

Colour space conversions are fairly benign but they can accumulate and maybe the digital RGB to component video conversion in your panel isn't great (why would it need to be, most digital inputs are HDMI/Component Video these days). Is it possible to get hold of your friends Denon DVD player and play with the HDMI output settings to switch between RGB and component video and see if you notice a difference?

Alan, the n-Vi can be set, as can the Denon, to output RGB or YUV, but of course only on the BNC outputs, and with the copy protection on many discs that means you won't get a picture unless you step back to YUV... have already done that test.


I'm a fussy bugger, and with a background in photography I know a lot about correctly colour balancing an image and what I can expect... mine is definately at the optimal setup for the screen, which is in turn optimally set up for the n-Vi... but thanks for bringing those points to the fore so that other folk can see them.

As for gloops last DVI question...

This all goes back to the quality of the digital video processing circuitry in the destination component (panel or projector).

If that circuitry is superior to the processing in the n-Vi then certainly it's the best option...

However, I doubt very much that you'd find that level of quality in any plasma or lcd tv... and in projectors I don't think you're likely to get that level of performance until you hit the five figure price bracket.

I've seen a Sim C3X (3 chip DLP retailing at £16,000) running DVI off a DVD5 and that was spectacular... and definately better on than on component... but I did the trial with my screen and component won.

Gloop's lucky enough to have a loan of both cables... so assuming that both connections work flawlessly he only needs to pick which one looks better.
Although I suspect I know the answer, it'll be down to his opinion & preferences... which I very much hope he'll share with us afterwards.

Ultimately as long as this Sanyo (of which I freely admit to knowing nothing) is of at least reasonable performance, then he should be in for a treat.

quote:

the n-Vi can be set, as can the Denon, to output RGB or YUV, but of course only on the BNC outputs, and with the copy protection on many discs that means you won't get a picture unless you step back to YUV... have already done that test.

Mike - I meant comparing RGB to YUV on the digital input to your display in case, for some reason, the display was less happy with digital RGB. Of course, you'd only be able to do this with the Denon so I guess it's academic anyway.

I've seen a C3X in action as well. Fantastic! Really natural looking colours and amazing image depth. 'Only' 720p but I'd probably take it over most 1080p projectors if wasn't for the cost!

quote:

a) The n-Vi's picture processing is better at converting a digital stream to a picture than my (very competent) screen is.

and
b) My screen's pretty competent internal scaler is capable of revealing the extra quality that the n-Vi chucks at it through this connection rather than its' internal processing when fed by DVI/HDMI

Thanks for that Mike - much clearer!

So, just to check that I have now understood this correctly -

A: With compoment (analogue) cable connection:-

the N-vi; reads the dvd as a digital stream; uses its internal DAC to convert this to an analogue picture signal; passess the analogue picture signal to the component output and connected cable.

the screen; receives the incomming component analogue picture signals; uses its internal ADC to convert this to a digital picture stream; uses its internal scaler to convert this to 1080p; passess the 1080p picture stream to the plasma screen.


B: With DVI/HDMI (digital) cable connection:-

the N-vi; reads the dvd as a digital stream; passess the digital signal to the DVI output and connected DVI/HDMI cable.

the screen; receives the incomming DVI/HDMI digital signals; uses its internal digital picture processor to convert this to a digital picture stream; uses its internal scaler to convert this to 1080p; passess the 1080p picture stream to the plasma screen.

Again, many thanks for your patience, especially if I have got this wrong...

Cheers

Don

Bingo!

Does that help?

quote:

Does that help?

Phew!!, many thanks

Cheers

Don

Thanks all very much for your replies. Sorry to be so slow, but...

I still don't see how introducing an extra digital to analogue and then back to digital conversion can produce a better signal / picture.

Would you be kind enough to re-explain this to me? Thanks again...

NO!



kidding.

Just go to the top of the page and re-read this...


but seriously, I'm concerned for you...

If you're able to test both.. and both work (as the HDMI/DVI route may not), you now appear to be prejudiced by the information in this thread and may refuse to accept what your own eyes tell you... a little knowledge can indeed be dangerous..
however, let me give you an analogy that may help.

Think of your DVD as a very fine piece of cloth

Think of the Video processing components in both the n-Vi and the projector as tailors.

Think of the final picture you see as a nice suit.


Running component to the projector is the equivalent of getting one tailor to cut the cloth, whilst another one sews it all together.


Running the DVI/HDMI combo is equivalent to letting the first tailor take the measurements, while the 2nd does all the work.


The quality of tailor no 1 (in the n-Vi) is Savile Row.

Tailor no2 (your projector) is an unknown.


The guy from Savile Row WILL get your measurements right, he will supply the cloth (cut or not) and it WILL be spectacularly good quality.

Because he's so damn good, the cuts of cloth he makes will be 2nd to none, and he'll supply tailor no 2 with everything needed to make a perfect Savile Row suit.

All guy no2 has to do is stitch it together nicely with a needle & thread.

If this guy is as good as the first chap you'll end up with something spectacular... even though two tailors are involved.

Even if he's crap, because of the raw materials handed to him on a plate, it'll still be the best suit that guy has ever sewn together... his best work.


On the other hand, if tailor 2 only has the measuremnts and identical raw (uncut cloth) materials, it may well be the case that the cuts he makes and the assembly of those pieces leaves something to be desired against Savile Row standards.

It's one guy making the suit, from the same numbers (see, the measurements are the data on the dvd), but it just ain't the same.

Now of course, Tailor no2 could actually be a Savile Row veteran (like a £16k Sim C3X projector).... but we don't know that, do we?



Try both cables.... put this thread out of your mind for the duration of the trial, and select the one that gives you the picture you like most.


Mike

Mike, what a useful forum this is - thank you so much for taking the time - and creating a great analogy - to share your knowledge. I get it now!

I'm sure the Z3's processing power is not at the same level as the n-Vi's, but I will of course go with whatever looks best - we all know that's the whole point!

So, the 5m Chord Company HDMI cable and DVi-HDMI adaptor are on their way to me (sale or return) and I already have a 1m IXOS Component cable.

I think the IXOS cost around £40 a couple of years ago - will these two cabling options be of a similar enough quality to show me which is the better format / route?? Thanks again, Ben.

With what you already have you'll get a good judgement.... but I had a similar cable to your IXOS which I've since replaced with a custom made Chord 3BNC-3RCA component cable.

The difference there was HUGE!

If the HDMI route looks massively better than your IXOS, stick with the HDMI...

But if Component looks "as good", I'd suggest sending back the HDMI & getting a Chord Component cable made up like I did...

By the time you have that cable You'll truly be getting what the n-Vi is capable of.

Mike

Thanks again Mike.

Thinking ahead, where did you have your cable made up and how much did it cost (if you're happy to share that)?

Thanks again.

It was made up by Chord company, at their factory, & ordered through my local dealer (Surrey/London area).

Cost for my 3m cable was £137. I think there's a basic price for a 1m cable, a surcharge for extra lengths of 1m, and a surcharge for the BNC connectors at the source end, cos a 1m RCA-RCA was £100, and when I enquired about a 5m BNC-RCA initially that was around £170


I'd suggest giving that business (should you opt for it) to the same dealer who's kindly doing the sale-or-return option on the HDMI/DVI bits, seeing as he's obviously a Chord Co dealer.

Have you got your n-Vi yet?

Don't forget that to use your IXOS component cable you'll need three BNC adapters, as the n-Vi has BNC sockets on the back.


Good luck

Mike

Thanks again.

No n-Vi yet - was planned for tomorrow, now Tues, as it's ex-dem and they're putting it through its paces before I get it...

Whilst it's probably an early model, I hope the software update due at the end of this month will fix any bugs there may be (the dealer has not noticed any anyway).

Actually, they're now being good enough to also include a Chord Co Component with BNC adaptors so that I can do a direct comparison.

Perhaps if component wins out, I would then have a cable made up as you have done.

Thanks once again - you've been enormously helpful