Streaming, help required!

Hi Hutton

Welcome to the forum and I hope it can be helpfull as well as enjoyable to you too.

A few months ago Nap-ster posted this link to a small video which explains some of the basic concepts of Naims streaming solution. Maybe it can be a starter to get into the subject.

Naim Network Audio

As you get more into the subject I'm sure more questions will arise.

Just a counter question: How familiar are you with computers and computer networks at home?

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aleg

Thanks Aleg, I will check the video when I get home.

In answer to your question, I am reasonably familier with computers etc. We have a wireless network at home with 3 computers.

As someone who is still learning the ropes re: audio streaming, may I add that so far I'm amazed at just how good the results are - highly recommended!

My system pre streaming was:
CD5x + FC2x
SuperNait
ProAc Tri-Tower using NACA5

and it sounded wonderful ... exceedingly powerful for my typical UK home.

But I had heard/read that you could play music stored on a PC's hard drive over the home network and for various reasons this idea sounded good to me. After some IT advice I researched various products and opted for the Logitech Duo - just about 12mths ago.

I had to upgrade my router (from g to n) to get better results and the Squeezebox program/Logitech devices are not 100% reliable but - save for those few occasions when I have to close/re-open or disconnect, etc. the set-up works a treat and the sound quality is as good (well as good as I can tell).

My music is stored on a Seagate 1TB external HD drive and plays through a D-Link router (upstairs). The Logitech receiver is connected via the Optical digital input to the SN (downstairs). I need more volume (about quarter-turn) on the SN but that allows more flexibility re: sound levels (mainly controlled via the Logitech Controller or via the SqueezeCenter program on the PC).

It does take time to rip the CDs - I use WMA Lossless - and you can spend forever re-organising your library (I'm happy to do so) but the results are brilliant.

I'm now looking at the NDX as a replacement to the Logitech Duo - as far I understand it will perform the same role - but do wonder whether the results, after investing GP£3k, will be that much better (not limited to sound quality).

Summary: I've surprised myself with just how good music streaming is (or can be).

quote:

Originally posted by Musicmad:
As someone who is still learning the ropes re: audio streaming, may I add that so far I'm amazed at just how good the results are - highly recommended!

My system pre streaming was:
CD5x + FC2x
SuperNait
ProAc Tri-Tower using NACA5

and it sounded wonderful ... exceedingly powerful for my typical UK home.

But I had heard/read that you could play music stored on a PC's hard drive over the home network and for various reasons this idea sounded good to me. After some IT advice I researched various products and opted for the Logitech Duo - just about 12mths ago.

I had to upgrade my router (from g to n) to get better results and the Squeezebox program/Logitech devices are not 100% reliable but - save for those few occasions when I have to close/re-open or disconnect, etc. the set-up works a treat and the sound quality is as good (well as good as I can tell).

My music is stored on a Seagate 1TB external HD drive and plays through a D-Link router (upstairs). The Logitech receiver is connected via the Optical digital input to the SN (downstairs). I need more volume (about quarter-turn) on the SN but that allows more flexibility re: sound levels (mainly controlled via the Logitech Controller or via the SqueezeCenter program on the PC).

It does take time to rip the CDs - I use WMA Lossless - and you can spend forever re-organising your library (I'm happy to do so) but the results are brilliant.

I'm now looking at the NDX as a replacement to the Logitech Duo - as far I understand it will perform the same role - but do wonder whether the results, after investing GP£3k, will be that much better (not limited to sound quality).

Summary: I've surprised myself with just how good music streaming is (or can be).

Many thanks for your reply which has given me some ideas. Is the Logitech device the "Duet"?

quote:

Many thanks for your reply which has given me some ideas. Is the Logitech device the "Duet"?

Yes, sorry ... I called it the Logitech Duo but I think its proper name is the Duet.

I recently bought a Musical Fidelity DAC and an Apple Airport Express. I currently stream apple lossless files from my Mac Book pro and use my iPod Touch to control everything (using the free Apple Remote)

This may not be the best way in terms of overall sound quality, but was relatively cheap, easy to set up etc and so far has been very reliable

And, overall I have been very impressed with the sound quality

There are reports both on this forum and other places that the Apple TV provides an even better result for streaming music than the Airport Express. The Apple TV is not just for TV! If your music is in iTunes then it provides a wonderful way to stream music to your music system. I currently use an Apple TV into my Supernait as my primary source and infact have sold my CD5x and its HiCap. FWIW.

quote:

Apple TV provides an even better result for streaming music than the Airport Express

In what way? Just curious. More robust? Less jitter?

I should say that improving on an AE's reliability should be about the easiest thing in the world to achieve...

thanks,
p

quote:

I must say that it has strick me as odd that a simple cheap memory stick can be used as a source in systems costing many thousands of pounds.

Welcome to the forum. I do not subscribe to the memory stick option for high quality replay although it does allow music to be played. USB sticks are great for taking music to listen to at a friend's house.

There are contrary views as to whether USB sticks sound different or not but some Naim reps believe sticks do sound different and not as good as files stored on and played from a proper hard drive. I was not overly impressed by a Naim USB stick playing back via my Naim dac.

I originally used an Airport Express and it is a very reasonable bit of kit for the money. It has a digital out which can be fed to the hifi via a dac. Originally I used a Beresford dac and then a Cambridge Audio Dacmagic. The problem with the Airport Express is you have to use it with Itunes which works at its best with Apple lossless files. It is not the best software for ripping wav files due to the way it associates file tags etc. I remember losing all the file associations following an Itunes upgrade and being left with thousands of tracks which were not listed by album or artist and had lost their artwork. Possibly I did something wrong but once bitten twice shy.

As a result I had to re rip my cd collection. At that point I tried Exact Audio copy and Dbpoweramp. I eventually settled on Dbpoweramp to simultaneously rip cds to wav flac and aac files on two external hard drives - the second being a back up.

I now stream the music to my hifi system with a Sonos system - basically a Zonebridge, a Zoneplayer and hand controller unit, although you can use an iphone if you have one instead of the controller unit.

The Sonos has a digital output which I feed to the Naim dac and then to my 552/300/Allaes (see my profile for fuller details).

There are other streamimg solutions but Sonos has a very good user interface and is reasonably priced. The quality is very good, especially if I use the 555ps on the dac instead of on the cd player.

It also allows me to access internet radio and Lastfm (and recently Spotify, which is great way to find new music.

The key things are

ideally you only want to rip your cd collection once

• you want to get it as close to "bit perfect" as possible.
  
• you want to get sufficient storage for the cds and for another a backup
  
• you need to check out the streaming options but once you have the music in flac or wav formats on the disc you can change the streaming hardware if you wish.

The downside to the Sonos is that it does not yet support hi-res downloads but that may come. It is however very easy to set up and use an can be expanded to cover a number of rooms.

Where are you in Surrey? - you may be able to pop over sometime to see my set up.
Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

quote:

Apple TV provides an even better result for streaming music than the Airport Express

In what way? Just curious. More robust? Less jitter?

I should say that improving on an AE's reliability should be about the easiest thing in the world to achieve...

thanks,
p

Yes on both counts. No problems with stability and via toslink to Qute, pretty much the same quality as Qute's built-in streaming. A real bargain.

John

Many thanks for all the replies which has given me much food for thought.

Graham, I live in the Guildford area and I may take up your kind offer in the new year if I am still in the dark!

It seems to me that I could use a Logitech, Apple or Sonus device but I will need a DAC although not with a Logitech Duet?

My preference would be to use Itunes as I have an extensive library on my PC and am resonably familiar with it. However, my CD5i does not have a digital output and I am therefore wondering if it is such a good idea to use my PC as transport for ripping CD's to a suitable file format. Am I barking up the wrong tree?

quote:

Originally posted by Hutton1969:
Many thanks for all the replies which has given me much food for thought.

Graham, I live in the Guildford area and I may take up your kind offer in the new year if I am still in the dark!

It seems to me that I could use a Logitech, Apple or Sonus device but I will need a DAC although not with a Logitech Duet?

My preference would be to use Itunes as I have an extensive library on my PC and am resonably familiar with it. However, my CD5i does not have a digital output and I am therefore wondering if it is such a good idea to use my PC as transport for ripping CD's to a suitable file format. Am I barking up the wrong tree?

Your PC with either EAC or dBPoweramp CDRipper software and setup for use with AccurateRip is very good to get proper rips.

But make sure to spend some time setting up the software for good secure rips with the proper offset for your drive. With a bit of googling you'll find plenty of guides on how to setup the software properly.

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aleg

quote:

Originally posted by GrahamFinch:
There are contrary views as to whether USB sticks sound different or not but some Naim reps believe sticks do sound different and not as good as files stored on and played from a proper hard drive. I was not overly impressed by a Naim USB stick playing back via my Naim dac.

You are aware that the Naim USB sticks are simply a promotional item and are not branded Naim as any indication of suitability for use as an audio source?

It is discussed to death that different brands of memory sticks (with possibly different controllers and different manufacurers memory in them) sound different - I'm not going to get into that discussion myself I'll leave that to others who can distnguish a difference - but the Naim (and Uniti / NaimNet) ones are simply promotional / marketing tools.

Phil

I have just visited an Apple store to look at the Airport Express and TV from which it appears that a DAC is not necessary as both devices are capable of outputting analogue. This has left me somwheat more confused although I quite like the TV because of the option of using an Itouch as a remote, plus it also uses Itunes. Still thinking and all suggestions etc most welcome!

Yes both the Airport Express and Apple TV have a built in DAC which can output an analogue signal. The built in DAC is about the equivalent of the DAC in an iPod. SO while you can use the built in DAC you also have the option of outputting a digital signal to a DAC of your choosing which is presumably higher quality.

quote:

have just visited an Apple store to look at the Airport Express and TV from which it appears that a DAC is not necessary as both devices are capable of outputting analogue.

A Naim system will ruthless expose the 2.5 pence DAC Apple uses; consider it as free, but superfluous ingredient - a high quality DAC will make a big difference. The Naim DAC with is buffering will make an even bigger difference - it has a Sharc after all.

quote:

You are aware that the Naim USB sticks are simply a promotional item and are not branded Naim as any indication of suitability for use as an audio source?

It is discussed to death that different brands of memory sticks (with possibly different controllers and different manufacurers memory in them) sound different - I'm not going to get into that discussion myself I'll leave that to others who can distnguish a difference - but the Naim (and Uniti / NaimNet) ones are simply promotional / marketing tools.

Yes I am aware of this. Although I paid a tenner for my Naim USB stick at Bristol - not a free promotion!

As you will also see my comment suggests people have different views as to the playback sound quality from a USB stick. Like you it is not a discussion I would want to get involved in. I feel unable to contribute to that discussion as I do not use USB sticks for that purposes so cannot make any comparisons.

I think the OP was really confirming that digital playback whether from a USB stick or from streaming is far better than would have been anticipated a few years ago.

I think he is right.

quote:

quote:
have just visited an Apple store to look at the Airport Express and TV from which it appears that a DAC is not necessary as both devices are capable of outputting analogue.

A Naim system will ruthless expose the 2.5 pence DAC Apple uses; consider it as free, but superfluous ingredient - a high quality DAC will make a big difference. The Naim DAC with is buffering will make an even bigger difference - it has a Sharc after all.

Of course this comment is correct in purely sound quality terms but factor in cost and a convenient way to get started and the Airport Express offers a cheap way to get into streaming. Initially it can be used with its analogue output and then with the optical output and a separate DAC.

I used an Airport Express to stream wav files via a Beresford and then later a Cambridge Audio Dacmagic before moving to a Sonos sytem. I later upgraded the Dacmaagic for the Naim Dac.

When I bought my Airport Express it was about £80. Add about £220 for the DAC and an optical cable.

Sonos is about £799 plus the Naim dac and cables.Of course the Airport Express will not hold up to the Sonos and a Naim dac but at about £80 it isn't that bad.

It depends on the resources Hutton has available hence my comment about getting accurate rips and backups which will last through a number of hardware upgrades.

quote:

Of course this comment is correct in purely sound quality terms but factor in cost and a convenient way to get started and the Airport Express offers a cheap way to get into streaming. Initially it can be used with its analogue output and then with the optical output and a separate DAC.

I used an Airport Express to stream wav files via a Beresford and then later a Cambridge Audio Dacmagic before moving to a Sonos sytem. I later upgraded the Dacmaagic for the Naim Dac.

When I bought my Airport Express it was about £80. Add about £220 for the DAC and an optical cable.

Sonos is about £799 plus the Naim dac and cables.Of course the Airport Express will not hold up to the Sonos and a Naim dac but at about £80 it isn't that bad.

It depends on the resources Hutton has available hence my comment about getting accurate rips and backups which will last through a number of hardware upgrades.

Agreed!

FWIW I am very satisfied with my Beresford DAC for my desktop based headphone system. It is a relatively inexpensive (US$ 300) way to upgrade on the Apple internal DAC. From there, like many of us, you will likely want to move to the Naim DAC.

Hutton,

I am surprised no trade member is replying to you. Why not consider the following Naim based solutions:

A- UnitiServe + N-DAC
B- UnitiServe + upcoming NDX

Going in that direction will save yourself a lot of time, and you minimize risk and uncertainty. It is a complete solution perfectly integrated with your existing system.

I imagine that A will provide highest possible sound quality. However B will provide more features, such as Internet radio (this is nice!)

Enjoy the research and the agony over the possible choices.

quote:

Originally posted by Alamanka:
Hutton,

I am surprised no trade member is replying to you. Why not consider the following Naim based solutions:

A- UnitiServe + N-DAC
B- UnitiServe + upcoming NDX

Going in that direction will save yourself a lot of time, and you minimize risk and uncertainty. It is a complete solution perfectly integrated with your existing system.

I imagine that A will provide highest possible sound quality. However B will provide more features, such as Internet radio (this is nice!)

Enjoy the research and the agony over the possible choices.

Hi Alamanka

Many thanks for the suggestions. As Graham mentioned, it depends on the resources I wish to commit to a hard disc system. I have an extensive CD collection and until my recent Naim purchases that is the way I thought I would continue until I started to investigate the hard disc alternatives on this forum. I think it will come down to a choice of upgrading the current system with FC and possibly CD5 Xs with cheaper components for streaming background music, or alternatively committing totally to hard disc along the lines you have suggested. Still a lot to learn!

Hutton,

Beyond the technical aspects, I would like to share with you a few benefits of hard disk playing.

When playing CD, one tend to listen to a complete album, then change the CD and listen to another complete album, etc.

Listening to music on a hard drive leads to a different experience.

For instance: one can use the "shuffle" mode and let the system play in a random sequence through the entire collection, or through a subset of the collection (within a specific genre, or specific artist). This is comparable of having a personal radio broadcast.
(Note you can also skip and move on to another track if the random choice does not suit your mood.)

Having hard disk also allows to create playlist, where you define in advance the tracks to play and their sequence. Again, you can select a full album, or mix and match tracks from different albums.

So using hard drive actually provide a lot more flexibility for listening. This is nice because sometimes, even if you like a specific artist or composer, listening to a full album is just too much.

Personally I have found that I am either using CD when I want to listen to a specific album, or I am using the shuffle mode if I am not sure about exactly what I want or if I want to be surprised.

Beyond hard disk, I think you should also consider Internet radio. The sound quality is not the most important aspect there, but rather the access to a variety of music adapted to your mood or to the occasion. Just to give you an example: a couple of days ago, we got the Christmas tree in the house. I browsed the internet radio for a minute on the NaimUniti and I was able to find a "Holiday" station broadcasting the Christmas carols. Immediately we felt like being in an old Hollywood movie (It's a wonderful life or something like that, you understand what I mean). It was very easy. The Unit is categorizing all the radios automatically in the background and you can navigate in the menu by Location or by Genre, so it is easy. This kind of feature can be useful when you want to create some "atmosphere".

To summarize: if sound quality is your unique goal, then there is no need to commit to the streaming approach. But the streaming approach will provide a different listening experience, convenience and possibly additional variety.

If you want to have both (streaming AND sound quality), then yes, you will have to commit resources: money, time... probably both!

Just a quick note re. Apple TV and DAC.

The original Apple TV had a (poor) built-in DAC and both optical and analogue out.

The new Apple TV is digital only - no in-built DAC, no analogue out.

Thanks for all your comments and advice which gratefully received.

My current inclination is to go with the Apple tv and a dac, possibly the Cambridge Dacmagic which seems to be well though of. This I hope will give me a decent start with modest outlay and will hopefully not be too difficult to set up.

Awesome. You have made a good start! You might like to Google "computer audiophile" to see what else is out there.