What is it about the LP12?

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Now if the Linns I've heard can still exhibit boom through that there must be something rotten in Denmark...

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Linns don't boom.

I challenge you, or anybody, to show me a booming LP12.

In the context of Planar3/LP12 there is no contest. The Rega is a very fine value turntable, but a guitar solo sounds like an pleasant smudge. On an LP12 even with a Basik level arm it's rendered as a series of notes.

Paul

As someone who is moving back to an LP12, having explored a lot of the alternatives, the key thing for me is that I can really get into the music more. I have a Clearaudio which is the better deck, but it's more difficult to live with as it's far more critical of the vinyl's condition and it can sound a bit too dynamic. It's a musical deck and easily embarrasses a Gyro SE, the old P9 and a top spec Xerxes, but despite all of that there is a certain intangible something that the LP12 has that none of these decks have.

If I knew what it was, I'd bottle it and sell it.

I think it's just a particularly appealing balance of virtues, in the way that a good whisky is a particularly appealing balance of flavours. Who is to say that one whisky is better than another - it's not really measurable, but we all have preferences, and such it is with the LP12. Let's go for the easy option and call it 'character'...

John

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Jun, did they sort it out for you?

An interesting thread which I wouldn't have read back then as I didn't won an LP12, but I do now, suffice to say there is no play!

I had a P3 for 15 years - great VFM deck. My entry-spec LP12 pisses all over it from a great height, however.

My old dealer did a good business with people who were modding the P3 in an effort to get it to equal an LP12. He admitted to wasting a load of cash and wayyy too much time in the effort - "Just get an LP12 and be done with it", he said.

I did - and its a fab deck.

I agree the bouncy bouncy thing is a pain. At present, I have 'defeated' the suspension in mine so that I can play records until I wall-mount it.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Garyi, please come here! I am afraid it's not over...!?!?

- Jun

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Originally posted by Paul Ranson:

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Now if the Linns I've heard can still exhibit boom through that there must be something rotten in Denmark...

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Linns don't boom.

I challenge you, or anybody, to show me a booming LP12.

In the context of Planar3/LP12 there is no contest. The Rega is a very fine value turntable, but a guitar solo sounds like an pleasant smudge. On an LP12 even with a Basik level arm it's rendered as a series of notes.

Paul

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Maybe it's because of my eyesight (I'm registerd partially sighted) but I've NEVER had a problem picking out these kinds of things, even on my £35 Goodmans deck I got from Richers yonks ago to tide me over when my midi system went (my mate has it now and it's a shocking turntable!)...

My friend's Linn Basik/Akito/Grado made a nasty mess of any of the records I threw at it - I kid you not, my Rega was better in every way compared to that deck (the Linn was ploddy, ungainly, and boring to listen to which I couldn't believe based on the hype - it sounded cheap, for want of a better word), and as I said before, it was better in many areas than the LP12 I heard at the seller's house... Maybe I really am deaf, but I just don't get why the Linn is so hyped as the holy grail - there are plenty of other decks around that are better made and better sound-wise to these ears...

Oh - and the amount Linn (and Rega for that matter) charge for belts is criminal... I really should get new belts for both my Regas some time soon-ish (both less than a year old I hasten to add).

Oh - finally, I'm sure there's no problem with a Linn re floor bounciness, if you have solid floors. Most people don't, and my mate certainly didn't...

When the music's over turn out the lights

Domfjbrown

are you sure that your not partially deaf!!
If you are not then you must see about getting your hearing tested immediately(or remove the earplugs). The Rega is excellent value but only beats an LP12 when the Lp12 is turned off!!!!!

Cheers

Spike

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My friend's Linn Basik/Akito/Grado made a nasty mess of any of the records I threw at it

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I thought we were talking about LP12s?

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Oh - finally, I'm sure there's no problem with a Linn re floor bounciness, if you have solid floors. Most people don't, and my mate certainly didn't...

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If your floor is wobbly enough to cause a problem then fix it, it's not safe.

Paul

There are very few true classics in this world. The Land Rover, the Coke bottle, the Supermarine Spitfire, sherry trifle, one or two other things, perhaps a couple of Ferraris, and the Linn Sondek.

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Originally posted by Paul Ranson:

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My friend's Linn Basik/Akito/Grado made a nasty mess of any of the records I threw at it

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I thought we were talking about LP12s?

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Ooops - we were - I meant *LP12* with Basik PSU - d'oh! Should make more sense now...

I already said that I'm half deaf most of the time due to ears not popping (blocked Eustacian tubes) but that doesn't mean I can't hear the tune. In the case I have to hand, an A/B comparison made the Linn sound super mega fugly compared to the Rega - even though the Rega was obviously more compressed and band limited... All I can assume is the Linn was set up by a muppet or something. Don't get me wrong, it didn't do anything glaringly wrong, but it wasn't my cup of tea and that boomy quality was still there in the Linn...

As I also said before, the fact that the Rega peed all over *that particular* Linn really dumbfounded me at the time - very very odd indeed.

Oh - I didn't rate Linn's CD12 on the one time I heard it either - maybe I just don't "get" Linn? I've not heard Kans though...

When the music's over turn out the lights

I must admit, apart from the mushy bass I liked my LP12/Lingo2/Akito/Sumiko BP a lot. The main reason I changed to a Gyrodec is the footfall vibration problems were chronic, and scratched a number of my favourite LPs before i finally lost patience.

On balance, I prefer the Gyro, it's more accurate, the bass is much more stable, and it's somehere clearer, more cohesive - to my ears anyway.

If I had a house where I could wallmount, I might consider another LP12, otherwise, no way.

Steve C 01

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Originally posted by Greg Beatty:
I agree the bouncy bouncy thing is a pain. At present, I have 'defeated' the suspension in mine so that I can play records until I wall-mount it.

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He he he - what does it sound like as a "solid plinther" then? Enquiring minds need to know...

Also, how did footfall manage to scratch the records - wouldn't a 1.5 gram downforce not do much damage unless you physically wrenched the arm across the record? I had an incident a couple of weeks back with a record whereby the arm skated across and onto the label (oops!) - I thought I'd have blown my tweeters from the HORRIFIC skeeeetz sound that occured - but they still sound fine - and the record doesn't have a visible scratch (but the bloody thing still gets stuck!)...

When the music's over turn out the lights

All the while, i thought the LP12 is better than the P9, just that the LP12 is too tweaky and hard to maintain. Therefore some people forego that little improvement of the lp12 over the p9 and go for the plug and play p9.

I have heard them both seperately but never in the same system.

But what i am reading now seems to suggest that the new p9 (with RB1000) might even be better than the lp12.

Would anyone who have done the comparison side by side please share your experiences?

Jim--

Exactly right!

I'm reminded of an old Linn ad: "There are 26 turntables better than the Linn Sondek. 23 of them are no longer available." I'm sure the numbers are off, but the idea is the same.

I don't even agree that a new LP12 is non-competitive pricewise. I've not heard a better TT, so to say that some other TT is a better "value" seems ludicrous.

Silk--I've now heard the new P9 in my system. The LP12 is still, IMO, better. The P9 still sounds smaller in terms of scale, doesn't offer as wide a dynamic range, and still sounds somewhat metronomic. The P9 also doesn't offer as much tonal color. Perhaps the biggest difference is that the LP12 changes character more on every record, suggesting to me that the P9 is still imposing more of its own character on the music.

The P9/RB1000 actually sounds more like the old Roksan Xerxes I have in certain respects.

Best,

Bob

Bob wrote:

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I don't even agree that a new LP12 is non-competitive pricewise. I've not heard a better TT, so to say that some other TT is a better "value" seems ludicrous.

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Interesting you say that. I have basically done LP12/Lingo/Aro -> Clearaudio deck -> LP12/Armageddon/Aro and I'd still maintain that at full price, the LP12 isn't particularly competitive. I did the auditions, and left with the deck that I'd deemed least likely to like beforehand. Strange, that.

Anyway, my point is that the LP12 represents superb value s/h - and whilst better decks do exist at the full rrp of the Linn, the LP12's balance of virtues and longevity makes it a very attractive prospect.

My LP12 is away being modded right now - the PSU is at the dealers but I'm still awaiting my new cartridge - but I will be genuinely delighted if it can provide me with 90% of the speed, dynamic and tracking capabilities of the Clearaudio deck. However, my wife never liked that deck due to its parallel tracker arm, and so it had to go...

John

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

There is another factor that no-one yet has mentioned (I think).
As a kid, getting my first hi-fi together, my nose was stuck against the LP12 window and I was thinking...(adopt Wayne's World voice) "one day, it will be mine".
Youthful fascination takes a lot of shifting.
Go on - deny it!

Tom,

Interesting that you mentioned P9 sounded less analogue than LP12 when what we have here are pure analog sound. But I am guessing that you mean to say LP12 being less dynamic than P9, thus results in perception of having a better flow and sounded more "analogue".

I have the P9-RB1000 with me for more than a year now and it is still the biggest upgrade for me despite having upgraded other stuff (Supercap, Hutter, Dynavector 17D2).

John--(aka TC)

Interesting you should say that! ;-) I really haven't heard a TT that betters my LP12 overall--and I've heard a bunch, including some that are more expensive new.

The only time I heard a Linn get absolutely annihilated was when it was played against a Goldmund Reference--long time ago! The LP12 had Valhalla/Ittok/Troika, and it simply wasn't close. I would be fascinated to hear the comparison now--with Aro, Geddon, etc.

I would definitely agree on the value a used LP12 can represent--I don't think anything can touch it!

Best,

Bob

Ohhhh...interesting. I havent heard a CDS2 long enough to be familiar with how it sounds like but had a side by side comparison with CDX2 before. VINYL rules of course.

I am using the 17D2 and I find it a good match with the S-board. It's more on the slightly leaner side of presentation compared to other cartridges but it's nicely balanced by my Epos 14. No spacers required is another plus point. I cant bring myself to pay for a needle of XX-2 price, so this is as far as I can stretch.

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Originally posted by Tom Alves:
I think what I mean by "less analogue" is that the P9 sounds more like my CDS2 than the LP12 does.

Are you using a 17D2? Is it a good match?

Tom

Actively enjoying it all

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Any decent `table can have a general sense of rhythm, and some `tables can sound wonderfully precise on technical presentation as well.

But an LP12 excels because it is able to go beyond all this.

It is able to cull individual musical strands in a mix and have them play as a band. This "humanness" is its appeal, and it's effect is one of involvement, immersion.

If these artistic skills damn it for it's lack of precision, then the opposite is true for all the `tables that do everything perfectly and are just .... boring.

In its basic 1980s second-hand form it suffers from a hump in the bass. Still, without modification, this type remains a perfect match for very expressive, fast and bassless minimonitors. Kans, 3/5as (pick you own favourite). These units usually come with Linn arms, which are pretty good.

Systems with wider bandwidth will of course require Lingo or Armageddon power supply modification to tidy up the bass (and in so doing, everything else). And then you have the higher level Linn arms... or the sublime Aro.

More good news - LP12s are easy to find.

Vik

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More good news - LP12s are easy to find

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Well, in the UK perhaps...
Here in Holland they're pretty hard to find!
IF they pop up, a s/h LP12/Akito will cost about 1500,- euro, more or less.
(about 3 times the price of a similar LP12 in the UK)

regards,
Alco

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Originally posted by Vik:
In its basic 1980s second-hand form it suffers from a hump in the bass. Still, without modification, this type remains a perfect match for very expressive, fast and bassless minimonitors. Kans...

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In my system the bass hump was very noticeable with Kans. I'm glad it has gone. [I.e. the hump, not my LP12!] I agree that they're a good match, though, for their expressiveness and other musical virtues.

--J

Having been ingrained with all the LP12 'nothing gets you closer to the music' tosh for 20 years I fully expected a trial of other decks to reveal more hi-fi and less music. Well, the Well Tempered displaced that myth in 10 secs and nothing since has made me miss the LP12. (Shame Tom can't be arsed to listen to the WT).

Alex

Tom, if I were you I would try to remember how my LP12 sounded (intrinsically and relative to the Densen) and then come and listen to my Well Tempered. I am certainly thick skinned enough if you don't like it (and quite happy to collect you from and deliver you to London Bridge). If you do like it I might lend it to you for a home dem. Set-up is a bit of a red herring: I'm sure a professional would set it up for you and, believe me, it can thereafter be left well alone. If you move to Inverness John Burns is just down the road to look after it

Alex

I like the Well-Tempered's too. honest sounding decks. the Reference was really good, and till the Roksan TMS2 was released, the WTR was tops for me. I'd still like to hear a JC Verdier though.

Vik