ortofon kontrapunkt 'b'

Posted by: ken c on 14 May 2001

in the latest hifi news (i think), there is short review of this cartridge -- cant remember who by -- scanned through this while waiting from my train at kings cross. however, more to the point, the reviewer ws very positive and concluded that this cartridge has a good balance of all the good attributes we expect.

as i said last time, my lp12 is at infidelity awaiting repairs and reset. i will definitely listen to the kontrapunkt as well, in an ARO/prefix/armageddon config.

enjoy...

ken

Posted on: 14 May 2001 by hifidaddy
I once heard the Ortofon Jubilee vs. Rohmann in SME V, it was in Denmark, where Ortofon man Per Winfeld, chief of cartridge development was present at Arhus Triode Festival 2000, and while the Jubilee had good resolution, it was crap, music wise.

As the Contrapunct cartridges are lesser Jubilees, I would not expect anything worth considering.

BTW, the Rohmann did not work in my ARO, but the Vero did. It is all a matter of matching. I advise you rather to get a Dynavector or Lyra cartridge, or a Koetsu.

regards,
Hartmut, who will be in Denmark on Arhus Triode Festival 2001, too.

Posted on: 15 May 2001 by Frank Abela
Hartmut

It's weird - the design of the Kontrapunkts is based on that of the Jubilee, but they are nothign like it. I found the Jubilee totally uninvolving and boring, if transparent.

The Kontrapunkts are nothing like it. They're fast dynamic and fun. The B is much better than the A. It represents the better value in this respect.

I can well imagine the Kontrapunkts being tarred with the Jubilee brush - don't make this mistake readers, the Kontrapunkt is a really good piece of kit and it has really knocked our socks off at the shop - especially in terms of value for money.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ortofon 'did something' about the Jubilee. The Kontrapunkts are just astounding.

Regards,
Frank.

Posted on: 15 May 2001 by Joe Petrik
Frank,

What's the difference between the Kontrapunkt a and Kontrapunkt b? It doesn't seem to be a low vs. high output thing, since the two models are within a dozen or so microvolts of each other. I checked Ortofon's Web site for details but it doesn't say what the musical differences are.

By the way, I had no idea Ortofon made so many cartridges. They have more than 40 MC models , 20 MM models, and 17 disco models, not including the disco sets -- whatever those are.

Joe

[This message was edited by Joe Petrik on TUESDAY 15 May 2001 at 15:19.]

Posted on: 15 May 2001 by Frank Abela
Joe

Ortofon make loads of cartridges. I find their entry level 500 series to be good value for money (£45 - £130). These are aimed squarely at the Goldring 1000 series and compete in price and execution, particularly that you can start with the most basic cartridge and upgrade via stylus change only. The Ortofons are cleaner in the treble and more transparent than the Goldrings.

Ortofon's Supreme cartridges were given great reviews in all the hifi mags originally. Unfortunately, I find them very boring indeed. I find it difficult to live with any of them (not Tony's experience obviously).

The Kontrapunkts are quite new (about 3 months old) and are developments from the Jubilee - hence the similar look. The A (£500) is simply a more inferior version of the B (£750). I believe there is a different stylus profile and inferior wiring. The basic character of the two is the same. The B simply builds on the basic cohesive strengths of the A with better timing, transparency and bass slam, yet maintaining all the cohesion and tonality (not an Ortofon strength usually). Incidentally, the bass is awesome. The Jubilee (£1200?) is the lemon here in my opinion, and harks back to the Supreme sound of quite nice tonally but nothing coherent.

The MC2000 (£800?) and 3000 (£1300) hark back to the late eighties (or early nineties) when Ortofon were heavily into using ceramics to build bodies, since ceramic has such a high resonant frequency. The 2000 is very clean and the 3000 is even better. However, I find it difficult to live with these cartridges since they have little tonal contrast to speak of and I find the 3000 a bit clinical. Timing-wise they're very good indeed.

I believe the 7500 (£2000) has similar internal geometry to the 3000 but much better materials internally and a titanium body. It's fabulously fast but I feel it could have better tonal contrast as well as better dynamic range, which is why I chose the Te Kaitora over it.

The Rohmann (£1000) is a development of the 7500. Basically it has similar internals to the 7500 but loses the titanium body. The Rohmann is usually a fun cartridge (deck dependant), but I found it could be wearing in the treble occasionally.

Regards,
Frank.

Posted on: 16 May 2001 by Simon Jenkins
Frank,

Are you able to provide a comparisson of the Kontrapunct B versus any other cartridges such as the Lyra Helikon, Arkiv B and Dyna XX1-L. Think this would make interesting reading if you have any comparissons.

Simon

Posted on: 16 May 2001 by Tony L
quote:
Ortofon's Supreme cartridges were given great reviews in all the hifi mags originally. Unfortunately, I find them very boring indeed. I find it difficult to live with any of them (not Tony's experience obviously).

I am more than a bit curious about Frank's view. As I stated in Joe's cartridge thread my experience of the MC 10 Supreme is that it is a real a giant killer. I would describe it as absolutely anything other than boring. In my system (pure old skool flat earth, very fast, dynamic, tight, controlled, with exceptional groove content and zero bass overhang!), this cartridge really rocks big time. Sorry, that was too understated… IT REALLY ROCKS!

Tony.

Posted on: 16 May 2001 by ken c
within what t/t configurations did you each experience the ortofon cartridges?? i suspect that tt/arm/phonostage, etc used may have a bearing on results heard. i have great respect for your views you two, so am a bit surprised ast this difference in view. could it be different set ups -- all the little final touches that one might need to get these needles to sing??

i have short listed arkiv B, dynavector xx-2, ortofon kontrapunkt B, and perhaps a lyra helikon for audition when i can arrange this with infidelity (and when the xx-2 is available). when i have done this, i will surely let you know. oh, this will be with lp12/armageddon/prefix/ARO straight into 52 or through a prefix's hicap to 52 BNC's

keep your thoughts view coming please...

enjoy...

ken

Posted on: 16 May 2001 by Tony L
quote:
within what t/t configurations did you each experience the ortofon cartridges?? i suspect that tt/arm/phonostage, etc used may have a bearing on results heard. i have great respect for your views you two, so am a bit surprised ast this difference in view.

I'm sure there are many factors here, not least that of personal taste. Frank and I both run remarkably different systems, and I guess must share very different musical priorities. I am a real old skool flat earther, and effectively run a late eighties Linn / Naim system (though with a P9 in place of the LP12). Frank runs (if memory serves me correctly) a Gyro / Mission Mechanic / Dynavector front end into Chord amps, and Audio Note speakers.

I have also had a dem at the dealer where Frank works (I bought my P9 there), and Frank and I frequently chose opposite products as being better. Its just individual priorities. We both know exactly what we like in audio reproduction, and I'm sure neither of us would remotely consider swapping systems. It’s a taste thing, no one is right or wrong (except for me being right!).

Tony.

Posted on: 16 May 2001 by ken c
tony: dong !!! silly me, i forgot personal tastes didnt i??

if some one says something is "boring" -- then i can easily conclude that this is personal preference. but when rather more precise words like "...very fast, dynamic, tight, controlled, with exceptional groove content and zero bass overhang ..." turn up in one's description that i tend to think that perhaps this is more "actual" description -- but i can see the catch. there is not much objectivity in this business.

i also find it fascinating that despite this "personal preference" business -- there are so many of us who "agree" that the naim sound is for us. gives me rather more hope that in fact we do perceive sound in more similar ways that we are aware of...

nuff waffle. tony many thanks.

enjoy...

ken

Posted on: 16 May 2001 by Tony L
quote:
i also find it fascinating that despite this "personal preference" business -- there are so many of us who "agree" that the naim sound is for us.

This forum is mainly full of Naim users, so there hopefully is a good chance of agreement on some things! From year dot Naim's priorities have been those that have since become known as "flat earth", i.e. the music's pitch, timing, tune and rhythm all being ultimately more important than its presentation. I simply can't listen to hi-fi that does not get these fundamental points correct, the icing is completely irrelevant if the cake is bad. Most hi-fi gets it very wrong indeed.

The Ortofon cartridge Frank and I have different perspectives on definitely gets these fundamentals right, and seems to do the presentation stuff fine as well to these ears - it is certainly not soft, wooly, warm, or romantic in its presentation, but for me that can only a be good thing. I would love to hear a cartridge that could beat it at anywhere near the price.

Tony.

Posted on: 16 May 2001 by ken c
quote:
This forum is mainly full of Naim users, so there hopefully is a good chance of agreement on some things!

yeah, you are right. i guess i was saying that even within the naim forum, amongst naim users -- there appear to be disagreements/difference perspectives on the very attributes that i believe naim is about including but not mimited to -- pace, timing, emotion, musicality, etc... some of the descriptions of same equipment in this forum are so different you could be fooled to think they are for entirely different products. i guess the ear is part of the circuit.

fascinating...

enjoy...

ken

Posted on: 16 May 2001 by Frank Abela
As I mentioned earlier, (but only intimated) I am puzzled by the result that Tony is getting with the MC10.

The reason I was somewhat scathing about the MC10 is that this experience has been arrived at through listening of my own, but it is also the conclusion reached by all the other members of staff in the shop. In most cases this would have been using LP12 into Naim high end system such as 82/52/250/135s (choose combinations) into SBLs or Dynaudios.

If, for example, the others had liked it I'd have said so and said it simply wasn't for me but that the others liked it. They don't. To be blunt, the MC10 has been described variously as nasty, an old nail, a dynamic dodo, etc. etc.

CAVEAT: I don't believe we've ever tried it on a P9!!! Coincidentally, Tony's deck! Perhaps there's a synergy happening there which really didn't work on the LP12 and Gyrodec combinations we tried with the Supremes. I have heard the MC30 on a P9 and still it wasn't to my taste although it had some redeeming features.

My biggest problem with these cartridges has always been timing. They're quite clean (though the 10 is the least clean for obvious reasons), nicely detailed, tonally sweet etc., but they sound like the bass section and the treble section were on opposite coasts of the US. Sorry Tony, but that's been my experience. Perhaps something has changed or there's a real synergy with the P9. If you want to hear something gobsmackingly good, have a listen to a Kontrapunkt B, but if you're happy with the 10, then good on yer mate, and enjoy it. After all, that's what it's about.

Incidentally, I agree the Supremes aren't warm, woolly, soft etc - but I think they're just detached...weird...

Regards,
Frank.

Posted on: 16 May 2001 by Rockingdoc
The Rohmann is available by mail order for only 650 GBP, so needs to be considered as a direct competitor with the Kontrapunkt. My Rohmann is like my LP12; brilliant when it feels like it, mediocre when it doesn't.
Posted on: 16 May 2001 by Tony L
quote:
If, for example, the others had liked it I'd have said so and said it simply wasn't for me but that the others liked it. They don't. To be blunt, the MC10 has been described variously as nasty, an old nail, a dynamic dodo, etc. etc.

The above is does not represent Ian’s views (the nearest they have to a flat earther, though not a Naim user). I spoke to him last week, and he seemed to like the 10 Supreme, understood why I thought it killed the XX1L, but definitely preferred the much more expensive Kontrapunkt B (out of my price range).

I have absolutely no idea why we are at odds over this, obviously system matching and setup will play a large issue. I have certainly managed to get an incredible amount more performance out of the P9 than I heard from any deck at the shop dem, so perhaps this is a factor. Obviously I have had far more time and use far better equipment supports etc, so please do not take this as any form of criticism.

quote:
My biggest problem with these cartridges has always been timing. They're quite clean (though the 10 is the least clean for obvious reasons), nicely detailed, tonally sweet etc., but they sound like the bass section and the treble section were on opposite coasts of the US.

I don’t get this, timing is the one thing that my system absolutely excels at, and is also something I fundamentally understand (ex bass player). My whole system is put together to time well, and this information is revealed with astonishing clarity – things don’t come much tighter than a P9 / Naim amp / Kans, certainly it would be absolutely impossible to hear what I am on about through any bleedin Dynaudio wink

The only other possibilities I can think of are a) I was sold a broken XX1L b) the MC10 Supreme has a long run in time (mine is low milaege second hand).

quote:
Sorry Tony, but that's been my experience.

5/10, go and listen again!

The weird thing is if Frank was arguing against tonal issues I would probably bow to his judgement, I will always sacrifice that for tune and PraT. He is arguing on timing and flat earth values… come on Frank, be realistic, that’s my patch!

Tony.

[This message was edited by Tony Lonorgan on WEDNESDAY 16 May 2001 at 20:38.]

Posted on: 16 May 2001 by Joe Petrik
Tony,

quote:
The only other possibilities I can think of are a) I was sold a broken XX1L b) the MC10 Supreme has a long run in time (mine is low milaege second hand).

About (a), having been sold a bustid XX-1L... although I didn't mention it on the forum or in private e-mails I'm beginning to wonder if this is possible. If you had found a cartridge you preferred to the XX-1L I would have thought, "Fair enough; maybe the Dynavector isn't quite what you're after."

But you think it does bass like a trucker's GI tract after a dozen bean burritos -- that being the only image I can conjure based on your description of the XX-1L sounding like 10 valve amps with a reflex port. This just ain't been anywhere near my experience, although I concede that the XX-1L is not the fastest and tightest cartridge I've heard. (That would be the Te Kaitora.)

About (b), the MC10 Supreme having a tediously long run-in... not a clue but I'd be surprised if it took more than, say, 50 hours to sound good.

Joe

Posted on: 16 May 2001 by ken c
i thought you would jump in at some stage. glad you have. comeon now, what cartridge shall i go for? dont give me any of this "listen for yourself" garbage. i want to blame someone else when it doesnt work for me...

enjoy...

ken

Posted on: 16 May 2001 by Joe Petrik
Ken,

quote:
what cartridge shall i go for?

Aw, what the hell... get a Dynavector XV-1. It looks real cool. Check it out.

quote:
dont give me any of this "listen for yourself" garbage.

Listening is for wusses. Look at the spec sheet. You'll want relatively few mV's, lots of db's and plenty of Hz's.

quote:
i want to blame someone else when it doesnt work for me...

Blame Vuk. We all do. It's fun. wink

Joe

Posted on: 16 May 2001 by Tony L
Joe:
quote:
But you think it does bass like a trucker's GI tract after a dozen bean burritos -- that being the only image I can conjure based on your description of the XX-1L sounding like 10 valve amps with a reflex port. This just ain't been anywhere near my experience, although I concede that the XX-1L is not the fastest and tightest cartridge I've heard.

I found it dull, fat, full of upper bass bloat with poor real extension, though far more importantly totally and utterly lifeless with poor groove. It also had to my ears an unnatural “romantic” valve like sheen to the top end (i.e. it did cymbals “pretty” rather than percussive). I would have sworn it was a dud if certain of the Cheadle crew (whose opinions I respect a lot) didn’t have exactly the same opinion of a completely different sample. When they heard I was going for one they went to great lengths to warn me off. Good call, I wish I had listened.

In all honesty I am sure it was not a dud as I bought it from a trustworthy dealer who stated categorically that it had been checked out by Dynavector themselves. I don’t care much either way as I effectively got my money back in the exchange. The bizarre thing is that the guy I exchanged it with loves it, though he does not listen to the same things as I do. One key factor is that he uses a outboard Michell phono stage, which whilst not being a product I like at all, may suit the incredibly low output Dynie more. This may well be the key to all this, my intention is certainly not to slag Dynavector off at all, that is not remotely what this is about – I am just curious as to why my experience with a cartridge that everyone else seems to like seems to have been so disastrous. Bizarrely I now seem to be getting stunning results from a cartridge that everyone now seems to hate. Ah well, I never did tow the line, in fact I never wanted to.

I certainly understand Joe’s reluctance to hear alternates, after all the XX1L is a remarkably expensive product if you pay full price for it, though I am sorry, I can only tell things how I hear them. The problem is that in a community like this a few people start raving about products they like, and if their previous opinions have had any credibility it is tempting to trust them on products that are hard to audition. It just goes to prove there is absolutely no substitute for auditioning stuff. I often feel quite awkward when people take my ramblings seriously, I know exactly what I like and what I hate, though everyone else obviously has every right to completely disagree with me.

Ross:

quote:
However, from what I understand, Tony's system is classic flat earth: fast, sharp, edgy, and possibly a little on the thin side (these are not meant as pejoratives, BTW). I can imagine that a big, warm sounding cartridge could sound synergistic in a system like this.

There is certainly something in this. As many know, I bang on all the time about synergy, and the balancing of a system to a room. I have never blindly followed one manufacturer or dealers ideology (though there are some who I respect.). The only odd thing is that the XX1L made my system dull, slow and boomy. Oh, for the days of fast, sharp and edgy! The Ortofon has really woken it up, though it is still thankfully anything but edgy.

Yes the Ortofon matches my system really well, I wouldn’t be raving about it if it did not. Perhaps by coincidence it is a great synergistic match with Kans. Though what I don’t get is the doubt about timing, to my ears it sounds like a slightly weightier version of my old Lydian B, a cartridge that I loved, but was a little to lean and forward to sit well with my system. I just don’t get it, though the improvement by replacing the XX1L with the MC 10 Supreme in my system Is abundantly clear to everyone who has heard my system before and after the change. This change was of a fundamentally musical nature, and would honestly be abundantly evident down a telephone line. Not subtle at all.

Tony.

PS

quote:
Listening is for wusses. Look at the spec sheet. You'll want relatively few mV's, lots of db's and plenty of Hz's.

Please allow me to retract all the above.

Posted on: 16 May 2001 by ken c
quote:
Listening is for wusses. Look at the spec sheet. You'll want relatively few mV's, lots of db's and plenty of Hz's.

ah, thats better, we want numbers, more numbers. your left out Newtons for tracking force, and another for compliance, etc...

its simpler to blame you if it doesnt work -- you can then pass on the blame to whoever you nominate, sort of like "current to earth" sort of thing... and in any case, i dont want to end up a boybander, do i?

seriously, many thanks. you dont think much of the xx-2 then, (says he, knowing full well that its probably not released yet, come on ken...)

enjoy...

ken

[This message was edited by ken c on THURSDAY 17 May 2001 at 02:11.]

[This message was edited by ken c on THURSDAY 17 May 2001 at 02:17.]

Posted on: 16 May 2001 by ken c
there must be a real vinyl revival in the air. why else would discussion of choice of cartrige arouse such, errm, whats the word now, passion? (in the best possible sense).

and to think i had sworn to myself i would never get a new cartridge and that i was going to sell my lp12 and records! mind you, the 52 was meant to be my very last upgrade ...

enjoy...

ken

Posted on: 17 May 2001 by Tony L
quote:
Blah, blah, blah… Then there's your mullet system to consider: a barely acceptable pre-amp at the front of power amps worth 15 times the price. Blah, blah, blah.

I will respond to the above garbage in exactly the condescending and patronising way he responds to other contributors such as Ron (who's opinion on audio I actually respect)…

Oh, I'm so sorry, I must bow to Mr consistent opinion Unbelievably I once actually put some weight in Vuk's opinion when deciding to go for the XX1L in the first place. I have since become absolutely convinced that he hasn't got a clue about the reproduction of non-classical music. Don't worry folks, his opinion will change as soon as he has another "vision".

As for all this mullet crap he keeps on spouting, these views on vintage or second hand kit deserve no respect at all. A 32.5 / Hicap / 250 / Kans is without doubt the best way I can think of spending 1300 quid. There is nothing that comes even close. It does not matter how many ridiculously overpaid idiots tell me otherwise, there is a massive law of diminishing returns issue involved in making any change. Things get a little better, but VFM flies out of the window. Remember all this mullet crap is coming some rich kid who recently paid out on a expensive pair of speakers before even adding an XPS to his CDX - front end first my arse.

quote:
…although the deck does have trouble keeping up with the CDX in terms of excitement and overall involvement very often.

Nuff said.

Tony.

PS The BNC issue is a temporary measure until I can find any that will fit properly on the cable without suffering from dry joints from poor crimping. I have tried twice with two different types of plug, and have not been able to get a joint that will not tarnish over time. Bare in mind I had been using Naim kit about 10 years before Vuk had even heard of the brand, so have experienced poor arm cable / BNC joints degrading over time. At the moment I have RCA sockets on the back of the pre, so I am not using converters.

Posted on: 17 May 2001 by Frank Abela
Tony,

This is great. I don't understand what's happening, but it is very interesting indeed. (Weird, aren't I?) You and I have the same basic tenet that it's the synergy of components that bring about a positive (or negative) end. I think we also both know where the other is coming from, And yes, I'll grant that the timing patch is yours, sir, as it is Iain's (although he's lunatic fringe - trust me, you haven't heard his system!).

Iain played with the MC30Supreme in his system for several months after breaking his MC2000 (oh the nashing of teeth and pulling of hair that caused). He was quite favourable about it at the time and so I borrowed it from him and put it in the Gyro. Now as you know, the Gyro doesn't time particularly well, but the 30 made the Gyro sound like a Systemdek IIX on a very bad day. I kept with it for a while to see if I could tune in to what it was doing but eventually I was so put out by it that I insisted on doing a damned good listen at Iain's. I came away with the same opinion I had, and Iain started cottoning on too since he was hearing it all over again. After many re-sets to make sure he hadn't fitted it incorrectly etc., he gave up and decided to move it on. Now he has an MC3000 which he loves and - of course - I hate.:) We also gave it some goes in the LP12/ARO combo to see what we could see. The best timing result from the 30 was in the P9, but that's thanks to the P9's character rather than anything else.

On to the unfortunate experience you had with the XX-1L, I thik there may be something in the S versus K argument here. Not sure though. Certainly it seems that it wasn't for you, and that comes as something of a surprise since it's normally really good for the kind of stuff you listen to. I can confirm that the one you had was in perfect condition. There was definitely nothing wrong with it. It had been fully tested before going out to you. I wasn't aware that the person who sold you the cartridge had a Michell phono stage.

I am a little concerned that the P9 is only as good as the CDX in Vuk's system. It should knock it into a cocked hat.

Ken - the XX2 is available. We've got one anyway! We've just received it so it's still being run in and I haven't heard it yet sicne I haven't been to the shop since my holiday. It will be interesting to see how it fares against the KontrapunktB. My initial feeling is that the XX2 will have to be very good indeed to better the Ortofon (yes it's that good).

Regards,
Frank.

Posted on: 17 May 2001 by Joe Petrik
Tony,

quote:
The problem is that in a community like this a few people start raving about products they like, and if their previous opinions have had any credibility it is tempting to trust them on products that are hard to audition. It just goes to prove there is absolutely no substitute for auditioning stuff.

I suspect that demming cartridges in the UK is not what it once was but demming the various makes and models in Canada or the U.S. is damn near impossible. Here's a sampling of experiences {exaggerated for effect) I've had during the last couple of years...

London, Ontario, Canada -- "We sell Linn cartridges, sir. Will that be a Klyde or Arkiv?"

Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada -- "Get a Sumiko BPS. It's the best cartridge we carry and it beats anything Linn has ever made. It'll certainly be much better than your Karma."

Lexington, Kentucky, USA -- "What's a turntable?*"

A lot of people, like me, are screwed. You simply can't hear, let alone try at home, anything more than a tiny fraction of the already small number of contenders -- and almost never on your own deck/arm combo.

Joe

* To be fair to the dealer in Lexington, who's a nice guy and a very enthusiastic new Naim dealer, he's simply not a analogue head so he doesn't stock tables, arms and cartridges.

[This message was edited by Joe Petrik on THURSDAY 17 May 2001 at 14:51.]

Posted on: 17 May 2001 by Tony L
Frank:
quote:
Iain played with the MC30Supreme in his system for several months after breaking his MC2000 (oh the nashing of teeth and pulling of hair that caused).

I know someone else who bust one of them too, the cantilever became "fractured", though it still was in one piece and still worked, just not anywhere near as well. It was an excellent cartridge, and my friend ran it in a Cirkus'd LP12 / Zeta / Lingo on a Mana Reference. That, when it was on top form, was certainly a candidate for the best LP12 I have ever heard.

quote:
He was quite favourable about it at the time and so I borrowed it from him and put it in the Gyro. Now as you know, the Gyro doesn't time particularly well, but the 30 made the Gyro sound like a Systemdek IIX on a very bad day.

I think record decks are IMHO as radically different from one another as speakers. Each has a lot of 'personality' in just the same way. The difference in just about every aspect of musical reproduction between say a LP12, Gyro, Xerxes, or P9 is absolutely fundamental, which to me makes the notion of a 'one cartridge fits all' concept to be very unlikely in the extreme. Add to this the myriad of possible differences the rest of peoples systems, and any absolutes have to be taken with a real pinch of salt.

Looking at my system, it’s a fine balance to get it really right as all the components are tilted in the same direction: P9 (lean, tight, very fast), Naim amp (fast, little on the lean and bright side), Kan II (ultra fast, very lean, mid forward). My feeling is that the XX1L fought against my systems strengths by slowing it down, and over smoothing the top end (Kans are mid forward, not toppy). In the bass its real tight low end heft and slam that I needed, not upper bass warmth, and again it seemed a mismatch. To use a daft motoring analogy, I see my system being along the lines of a Lotus 7, not exactly an ideal all rounder, but it does what it sets out to do unbelievably well, and does it at a fantastically low cost of ownership. So, yes, in a more neutral system than mine the Ortofon may well be an abortion, though I have to admit I loved it in the sellers system (very different to mine), that’s why I went for the deal in the first place.

quote:
On to the unfortunate experience you had with the XX-1L, I thik there may be something in the S versus K argument here. Not sure though.

I actually have both S and K boards, in fact I seem to have a shelf full of just about every board ever made for the old Naim preamps, I should start a shop. My S boards were recapped at the time my preamp was fully serviced about two and a half years ago, the K boards were not. I prefer the S boards, though this is as stated not necessarily a fair comparison.

The main thing I noticed was a real lack of gain, to get the same level out of the XX1L as CD with the volume knob set at quarter to I was having to crank it up to about one o'clock. The Ortofon measures twice as loud on paper, and I am listening to it at around ten to. I am sure this explains a lot of the extra punch, tightness and slam. The guy I sold the XX1L to has his Michell stage set for high gain. I intend to have a listen to his system just to get to the bottom of this, as he loves the Dynie (which I am really pleased about, I did not want to sell him a lemon).

quote:
I am a little concerned that the P9 is only as good as the CDX in Vuk's system. It should knock it into a cocked hat.

Should knock a CDX/XPS into a cocked hat!

Tony.

[This message was edited by Tony Lonorgan on THURSDAY 17 May 2001 at 14:45.]

Posted on: 17 May 2001 by ken c
quote:
Ken - the XX2 is available. We've got one anyway!

frank many thanks. i will now contact infidelity for an audition on my own lp12, which they are servicing...

enjoy...

ken