ortofon kontrapunkt 'b'

please, i am not interested in any other cartridges -- just the linn arkiv A (not the B).

many thanks and enjoy...

ken

Tony, I think the Dynavector really isn't your cup of tea, and this is probably true for all of them, given your description. The lack of gain is a typical Dyn thing. Its output is much lower than the Ortofon - again a common Dyn thing. The Groove has a gain of 1000 (!) so I don't have this problem any more (yeehah).

My gut feeling is that you simply have a significant preference for the Ortofon cartridges thanks to their extra pace. Enjoy...!

Regards,
Frank.

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tony, frank, and anyone else who has used/knows the sound of the arkiv A in an ARO (prefix or no prefix, geddon or lingo or valhalla)

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Never heard one. That's me off the hook

Tony.

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...we have had completely differing experiences and quite different approaches in our systems...

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Yeah, yeah, yeah... but which cartridge is best at each price point?

Joe

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...although it's a little disappointing in an aesthetic/symbolic way that the P9 is no longer ahead of the CDX...

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I strongly recommend that you replace both belts on the p9. My table was sounding a little slow and lifeless before I replaced them. Well worth doing. While you're at it, clean the motor pulley and hub with pure isopropyl alcohol.

Also, the main bearing probably should be cleaned out and relubed with ~0.5 mL of 90-weight hypoid gear oil every couple of years. Even if you don't think it sounds better afterward, it's important for bearing longevity.

Joe

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A lot of people, like me, are screwed. You simply can't hear, let alone try at home, anything more than a tiny fraction of the already small number of contenders -- and almost never on your own deck/arm combo.

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And Vuk:

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Like Joe, I am in a bad postion when it comes to hearing the alternatives and further constrained by the fact that I have a K Prefix mounted, which pretty much limits me to MCs of that configuration.

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I'm in the same position over here in the Left Coast, and because of that, sad as it may sound, I'm relying (far more than what should be necessary) on the few cartridge threads that have just kicked up in this forum to determine a replacement to an MC Silver for my LP12/Ekos combo.

I recently spec'ed my pre for a Dyna 17; it was based pretty much on dealer and forum recommendations. Needless to say, I'm watching these threads with great interest in lieu of the unavailable cartridge dem.

Cheers

Keith.

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I strongly recommend that you replace both belts on the p9.

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Done a few weeks ago. Cheap and well worth doing too.

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Also, the main bearing probably should be cleaned out and relubed with ~0.5 mL of 90-weight hypoid gear oil every couple of years.

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Will do this. Is this real "fancy oil" or normal motor oil. I still have some Castrol GTX or whatever from years back, is this the stuff?

Tony.

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90-weight hypoid gear oil

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That's specifically gear oil, much thicker than automotive engine oil. Your tranny oil is more likely to be what you're looking for.

Cheers

Keith.

[This message was edited by Keith Mattox on THURSDAY 17 May 2001 at 16:30.]

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Yeah, yeah, yeah... but which cartridge is best at each price point?

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yeah, taken the words right out of my mouth.. ...

what a missed opportunity -- i could make a killing in this business!

enjoy...

ken

Tony, you can get the correct oil from Rega. I believe it's not the same as the stuff used in cars.

Ken - Tom tells me that the XX2 is different to the 'B', rather than better, typical of the difference between Ortofons and Dynavectors. Simon apparently still prefers the 'B' by some margin. Tom also says the XX2 is a lot better than the XX-1L. The last time I heard an Arkiv A was years ago and it was in a lingo/Ekos and an upgrade from a Troika. Not a suitable reference I'm afraid.

I have heard an ArkivB in Geddon/ARO recently but you're not interested in that.

Vuk, I'm glad you're happy with your investment - especially since I was one of the instigators. I feel really bad about people like you and Joe who have no support for vinyl reproduction. It's better here in the UK, but it's by no means good (let alone excellent). Incidentally, I get the impression that Europe is also fairly thin on the ground for vinyl support. The UK appears to be the quirky exception - now there's a surprise, eh?

Joe, well obviously the Dynavector is the best at any price point. :):)

Keith, I'd love to recommend a cartridge unequivocally, but the three at your price range (17D2, KontrapunktA, Klyde) are so different from each other in terms of presentation that it simply isn't possible to do with a guarantee that you'll be happy. If you have a local dealer for the 17D2, he might let you have it for a few days to see if it's up your street. If it isn't then the other two will both be a better bet since they're closer in presentation to each other than the 17D2. The Dyn is lean with fabulous midrange and sweet treble. The KontrapunktA has better pace and tuneful bass but not such an alluring mid and treble. The Klyde is a touch warm, possibly a little slow, but a nice gentle swing to it. It's been a while since I've listened to an Ekos, so it's difficult to say which would be the best bet. Also consider dealer backup. If you buy somethign from a dealer nowhere near you, it may be more difficult to get good service.

Regards,
Frank.

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Your tranny oil is more likely to be what you're looking for.

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Transvestite oil? I am now seriously confused (though thankfully not on gender issues).

Tony.

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Tony, you can get the correct oil from Rega.

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Wrong. You can get the correct oil from Rega, being a Rega dealer. Consider this an order. How much do I owe you? (I will pay anything not to have to ask for transvestite oil).

Tony.

As I understand it, Rega uses (and specifically recommends) 90-weight hypoid gear oil for the p9, presumably because the heavy ceramic platter puts a lot of pressure on the main bearing. (I think Rega uses a different lubricant for the p2, p3 and p25 but that makes sense since these tables have lighter glass platters and, consequently, less pressure on their bearings.)

Hypoid gear oil is different from other motor oils in that it's formulated to withstand exteme pressure without breaking down, the conditions found in hypoid gears.

Here's a blurb about hypoid gears and hypoid gear oils I found on the Net:

"'Hypoid' is not really a question of oil, so much as a question of gearcutting. Old (1920s) rear axles used straight bevel gears to form the crownwheel and pinion. These had two disadvantages: the pinion shaft meets the crownwheel on its central axis, and the straight cut gears are noisy.

By using a more complex "hypoid" gear tooth shape (if you look at a pinion, the teeth appear twisted) these problems can be addressed. The more gradual engagement of the teeth along their length reduces noise. By careful design of the geometry the pinion can be made to mesh below the axis of the crownwheel. As the centre height of the crownwheel is fixed by the wheel height, this allows the propshaft to be lowered relative to the car body, giving a clearer floorpan and lower centre of gravity for better cornering. Hypoid bevels are now universal in this application.

Because of the sliding contact that hypoid gears make, their hydrodynamic contact pressure is higher. To be suitable for use with hypoid gears, a lubricant must be capable of resisting high pressures.

Oils with "EP" ratings (Extreme Pressure) such as EP90 are required. Some brands describe themselves as "hypoid" instead, a term which is
synonymous with EP. GL-5 is a formal API standard for this type of oil (comparable to MIL-L-2105B/C/D)"

Maybe it's overkill but to be on the safe side get the one Rega uses. Unfortunately, it's sold by the litre so you'll have enough left over to do another 5,000 p9s.

Joe

It's quite likely that either your car's stick shift transmission, or its differential, or both, use this type of gear oil. I bet you can get a few cc's from your local mechanic. If not, get some from your long distance mechanic.

Hypoid gears - simply put, if you've ever looked at a detailed drawing at a gearbox and marveled at the weird gears with the angled and curved, rather than straight, teeth, well, them thar's hypoid gears. And they do need a very high viscosity gear oil.

Cheers

Keith, who does not play a mechanic on TV

the concept of diminishing resturns only applies when you can assign a financial value to an upgrade and the upgrade is not worth it. however, i know sometimes we pay dearly for "small" (what does this mean???) changes that have a significant impact on out listening pleasure. lust lowering the noise floor by a few more dB's may have a big musical impact.

if i add up how much i have spent to get to where i am now, the total is "silly" money -- and is about to get even sillier with cdsii if i go ahead with this. however, i can tell you that my system sounds substantially better than i ever remember with my first real system 32/hicap/250/isobarik (which in itself was also very good indeed).

the only problem for me is that i am having great difficulty working with music in the background. my music now wants to be in the foreground. seriously, i really cannot afford to have 3 to 4 hour dedicated music playing sessions a day, which is what has been happening since last month. and all the music buying is a serious dent on the bank balance too...

nuff... enjoy
ken

ps: hope to be able to hear a cartridge or 2 at infidelity tomorrow.

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I am now seriously confused (though thankfully not on gender issues).

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I thought you liked me when we met.

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the concept of diminishing returns only applies when you can assign a financial value to an upgrade and the upgrade is not worth it. however, i know sometimes we pay dearly for "small" (what does this mean???) changes that have a significant impact on out listening pleasure. lust lowering the noise floor by a few more dB's may have a big musical impact.

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Everyone has their own view on what represents good value, everyone's view is completely different. Effectively everyone's returns diminish differently. I also have a very similar view to Vuk and the rest of the Mana crew regarding the ultimate value of "box upgrades" most people don't seem to be bothered to get anywhere near the last ounce of performance out of their system, and seem far happier just to write another cheque, and then become disappointed again. I have frequently heard very expensive systems not perform anywhere near as well as a well set up cheaper one. I am not just using Mana as the only route here, there are other techniques that I have heard work well too.

The most important things I have done to my system in the past year (other than finding a suitable cartridge) are:

• Stands: Using high quality equipment supports (in my case Mana). This is a revelation, bang for buck, and assuming you already have good components, I reckon stands outweigh equipment purchases in performance by a hell of a lot. What Mana did for my deck, preamp and CD player is the sonic equivalent of replacing them with models at twice the price.

• Mains: I scored some second hand Music Works kit, a six way Megablock and leads for my amp. Fantastic value, they do a different (but in my view complimentary) thing to the Mana, and in my system it works stunningly well. I know people who don't like them at all in their systems, though in mine it is a no brainer. Listen first.

• Tweaks: After using Kans off and on for over ten years I finally ditched the bi-wire links and soldered two sets of plugs onto the A5. I also moved right away from using cross head screws driven into the floor under the stand spikes. Result: I now have my Kans sounding far better than I have ever heard anywhere else. Learning and understanding how to set my Mana up properly reaped similar rewards.

OK, I have certainly spent some money, Mana is definitely not cheap, and is very hard to find used so I was forced to buy the rack new (I got my Reference Table second hand), it was good value for what it delivered though. During this time period I downgraded my 135s to a 250, and by comparison that difference was minute.

Bottom line: The P9 / Ortofon is working really well, and finally has an affordable running cost (240 quid to trade cartridge on a new one). My recapped 32.5 (72'd) / Hicap / 250 is sounding so much better than it has any right to, and just makes me laugh when I think how little it cost me - If I ever do thing a second hand 82 is worth buying (it would cost more than I paid for the whole amp), then it is a simple job to drop it in. And as for the Kans, they cost me just over 200 quid, and to my ears there is nothing to touch them this side of SBLs (and for me that’s not a completely clear win). My whole vinyl playing system has cost me less than the new price of a 52, and that’s including all stands and cables. Sound wise it can embarrass some very, very expensive competition. VFM.

Tony.

I'm trying to find out what Iain did when rebuilding his P9, including oil change. You may be better off having a quick word with him directly on the phone. You're pretty good with messing around with equipment - if he goes over some of what he's done, you may get some serious improvements. If he lets me know about the oil, I'll post a message.

Regards,
Frank.

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I'm trying to find out what Iain did when rebuilding his P9, including oil change. You may be better off having a quick word with him directly on the phone.

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I had a chat to him a couple of weeks ago week - Tom phoned up concerned when I was considering ditching the P9.

Iain has totally stripped and reassembled his P9, and has done a little surgery along the way. He described slightly countersinking the three points on the plinth where the RB900 sits to get a slightly more stable join as the plinth "bubbles" very slightly with the pressure caused by the screws. Apparently Rega do this on the main bearing / plinth interface, so I want to remove that to have a look first (hence wanting the oil as I will inevitably loose some in the process.).

I am reluctant to do any major surgery to the P9 in case it is as highly strung as say the LP12. I hate the way the arm is mounted on the P9, its held on by three chipboard screws, that when you use spacers obviously penetrate the plinth by that much less. The temptation is to drill the holes right through, put some washers on the bottom and use some nice high quality allen bolts / nuts right through the plinth. Though the same argument can be made regarding the way the arm board is held onto an LP12 by three of the most feeble screws known to man - problem is that if you beef them up it sounds crap!

The thing he said that concerned me is that he has come across some P9s that have screws that have come loose in the bearing / plinth joint, this is another reason that I want to strip it down. After all I have had everything from my first Lenco 78, through a Ariston (frequently), then my Xerxes (frequently) and last an LP12 (very, very frequently!) in tiny bits over the carpet, I don't see why the P9 should escape.

Some of the things he described are a bit scary, such as filing the underside of the headshell flatter (no thanks!), though I will certainly give it a full service when I get the oil.

There was a rumour going around here a while back about Rega either upgrading or replacing the P9. You got any info on this Frank?

Tony.

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I'm trying to find out what Iain did when rebuilding his P9, including oil change.... If he lets me know about the oil, I'll post a message.

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I faxed Rega UK a while ago, asking them what oil they use in the p9. The answer, paraphrased for brevity, was the following:

Dear Joe,

It's nice to hear happy comments from happy customers. We use 90-weight hypoid gear oil. That's what you should use.

Hugs and kisses,

Rega UK

P.S. Yes, your table is better than Dev's.

That was a couple of years ago, though, so please let us know if they have switched to a new 'n' improved oil.

Joe

2) Tony's preamp ain't up to the resolution of the XX1-L and the Orty is a better match, but obviously not as resolving, but sounds better cos it works better.

3) There might be something wrong in Tony's armcable/connections and there is an electrical mismatch. But then the Orty would also sound shite and it doesn't.

4) Tony has balanced his system around Kans and I reckon the Orty is a better match.

5) The Dynavector prefers well damped arms (eg WT) or unipivots. This is well known as Dynies are the cartridge of choice with WT's and many Aro's.

6) Tony's RB900 is poorly mounted in the deck and the Dynie was outting excessive energy back inot the arm and it screwed up the sound, and as the Orty is putting less energy back into the arm the problems have disappeared. Or the bearings have premature wear or flat spotted (very unlikely)

7) Headshell bolts were over or undertensioned. Every cartridge has the right tension. In Aros with Troika's finger tight and a bit more is appropriate, in a WT it should be tighter than that. In a Rega I have no clue.

8) A combination of all or some of the above.

While the XX1-L and the 17D2 are not my fave cartridges, I have heard them many times and they do not sound as fundamentally bad as has been described.

But most importantly it is worth noting that Tony's system has now been offically classified as 'totally wicked' so that is the most important, but I would give the p9 a service (please, please no tweaks, just make sure it works as the maker intented) just to get piece of mind, and maybe get the phono boards checked out too.

laters, Dev

ps. as I have said before DO NOT use that Linn Green stuff or any other abrasive on a tip. BAD NEWS. Use a fine camel hair brush to get rid of dust occasionally dip it in some isopropyl

[This message was edited by Dev B on FRIDAY 18 May 2001 at 17:42.]

i also definitely agree that equipment stands make quite a difference -- and give you maximum musical leverage from your system. i actually think we all get too hung up on HOW you get this leverage -- you can take the approach of upgrading the boxes first and then the stands, or the stands first, and then the boxes. philosophically, i do not believe stands can bring out any music that isnt already in the equipment. (i dont want to start another long argument here... i am quite happy, in fact deliriously so, if other people have different views to me here).

i use the grahams special hydra. have u tried this ever. works well in my system compared to their distrubution block, which has done wonders to my spare kan system.

talking about kans, i did tell you that i had an interesting experience when i was trying to diagnose a fault in my system -- using kans (i was suspecting the my sbl's were ill -- turned out not to be the case). in front of a 52/supercap/250 -- the kans do things that are hard to imagine for such a small box. and the spikes were straight into a parquet wooden floor -- no crossheads. i could definitely live with that system if i wasnt mad. and tony, one of these days, you MUST upgrade your pre-amp to at least 82 (i know you are planning that). i have seen an old 52/52PS going for a song somewhere.

i admire your ability to dismantle your kit to bits and then build it again -- especially turntables. i would never have enough courage to do that and if i did, i would never feel i had re-assembled correctly. i keep threatening to re-solder my NACA5 with naim plugs myself, but being such a coward, i will probably end up taking it to a naim dealer.

thanks again...

enjoy

ken
ps: come on tony, what cartridge shall i get?? couldnt listen to any cartridge today at infidelity, my deck is not set up yet - they are waiting from my prefix which is at naim for a thorough heath check.

enjoy

ken

Contraindications such as Tony's are very hard to solve. One of my best friend works for a well respected cartridge manufacturer and I have learned that MC's are very delicate devices and definitive statements like 'my Orty blows away an XX1-L' are naiive at their most benign and stupid at their most malevolent.

Their are more manufacturing inconsistencies in MCs than any other audio product.

regards,

Dev

ps. Arkiv B blows the lot of them away. So does Troika.

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Please don't be a scientist. It doesn't work.

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ha ha, first compliment i have had for weeks. thanks. in truth if i was ever a one, i would be a frustrated one, i think...

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... statements like 'my Orty blows away an XX1-L' are naive at their most benign and stupid at their most malevolent.

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quote of the week or what...

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Their are more manufacturing inconsistencies in MCs than any other audio product.

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very interesting. i didnt know this -- but i suppose i should have -- tut tut tut.

so, your turn, what cartridge do you reckon i should get. demo sounds somewhat useless with such a wide performance envelope even with one brand? who has the least tolerances and best sound? reckon ok to narrow down choices to xx-2, kontrapunkt 'b' (say that with chewing gum in your mouth and see what happens... !!!), arkiv b

enjoy...

ken