The greatest single composition of the 20th century
Posted by: mikeeschman on 28 February 2009
i would like to nominate Messiaen's "Quartet for the End of Time" as the most profound, complete and musically satisfying work written in the 20th century.
here are some program notes for this work, courtesy of University of Southern California :
MESSIAEN: Quartet for the End of Time
Program Notes
In 1940, Olivier Messiaen (1908-92) was interned in a German prison camp, where he discovered among his fellow prisoners a clarinettist, a violinist and a violoncellist. The success of a short trio which he wrote for them led him to add seven more movements to this Interlude, and a piano to the ensemble, to create the Quartet for the End of Time. Messiaen and his friends first performed it for their 5000 fellow prisoners on January 15, 1941.
If the plain facts of the work's origins are simple, the spiritual facts are far more complex. Messiaen's religious mysticism found a point of departure for the Quartet in the passage in the Book of Revelation (chapter 10) about the descent of the seventh angel, at the sound of whose trumpet the mystery of God will be consummated, and who announces "that there should be time no longer."
According to the composer, the Quartet was intended not to be a commentary on the Apocalypse, nor to refer to his own captivity, but to be a kind of musical extension of the Biblical account, and of the concept of the end of Time as the end of past and future and the beginning of eternity. For Messiaen there was also a musical sense to the angel's announcement. His development of a varied and flexible rhythmic system, based in part on ancient Hindu rhythms, came to fruition in the Quartet, where more or less literally Messiaen put an end to the equally measured "time" of western classical music.
The architecture of the Quartet is both musical and mystical. There are eight movements because God rested on the seventh day after creation, a day which extended into the eighth day of timeless eternity. There are intricate thematic relationships, as for example between movements two and seven, both of which are about the angel; and stylistic and theological relationships, as between movements five and eight.
In a preface to the score, Messiaen commented on each of the movements:
1.
Liturgy of crystal. Between three and four o'clock in the morning, the awakening of the birds: a blackbird or a solo nightingale improvises, surrounded by efflorescent sound, by a halo of trills lost high in the trees...
2.
Vocalise, for the Angel who announces the end of Time. The first and third parts (very short) evoke the power of this mighty angel, a rainbow upon his head and clothed with a cloud, who sets one foot on the sea and one foot on the earth. In the middle section are the impalpable harmonies of heaven. In the piano, sweet cascades of blue-orange chords, enclosing in their distant chimes the almost plainchant song of the violin and violoncello.
3.
Abyss of the birds. Clarinet alone. The abyss is Time with its sadness, its weariness. The birds are the opposite to Time; they are our desire for light, for stars, for rainbows, and for jubilant songs.
4.
Interlude. Scherzo, of a more individual character than the other movements, but linked to them nevertheless by certain melodic recollections.
5.
Praise to the Eternity of Jesus. Jesus is considered here as the Word. A broad phrase, infinitely slow, on the violoncello, magnifies with love and reverence the eternity of the Word, powerful and gentle, ... "In the beginning was the Word, and Word was with God, and the Word was God."
6.
Dance of fury, for the seven trumpets. Rhythmically, the most characteristic piece in the series. The four instruments in unison take on the aspect of gongs and trumpets (the first six trumpets of the Apocalypse were followed by various catastrophes, the trumpet of the seventh angel announced the consummation of the mystery of God). Use of added [rhythmic] values, rhythms augmented or diminished... Music of stone, of formidable, sonorous granite...
7.
A mingling of rainbows for the Angel who announces the end of Time. Certain passages from the second movement recur here. The powerful angel appears, above all the rainbow that covers him... In my dreams I hear and see a catalogue of chords and melodies, familiar colours and forms... The swords of fire, these outpourings of blue-orange lava, these turbulent stars...
8.
Praise to the Immortality of Jesus. Expansive solo violin, counterpart to the violoncello solo of the fifth movement. Why this second encomium? It addresses more specifically the second aspect of Jesus, Jesus the Man, the Word made flesh... Its slow ascent toward the most extreme point of tension is the ascension of man toward his God, of the child of God toward his Father, of the being made divine toward Paradise.
i hope there are other nominations on this thread.
Posted on: 09 March 2009 by u5227470736789439
Apparently so ...
Why can't people just be enthusiastic rather than pretending to be clever all the time?
Splitting hairs in other words ...
Posted on: 09 March 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Marchant:
Incidentally, I think you made a slip in referring to the "intent" of a work of art. Intent is a set of thoughts and ideas held by a sentient being, it cannot be an attribute of an abstract composition. You might think you can infer the creator's intent from a work of art, but you can't know and ultimately it's all projection.
this is now officially a TROLL.
abstract composition? i'm holding it in my hand. if you want one, just go to sheetmusicplus and order it.
and what's this foolishness about objective and subjective? we are not discussing an oxidation-reduction reaction, we are sharing opinions about music. nothing is more boring or boorish than applying misplaced criteria in a relaxed discussion among friends.
in a work of music where the composer has included a narrative in the score, describing a program for each movement of the piece, the performers and the listeners are right to see intent.
when i say "not a note is out of place", i am referring to the score. so as not to confuse, by score i mean the notes which messiaen wrote and the performers play.
in my initial post i correctly use i in expressing my opinion. it's not their opinion or his opinion, it is my opinion.
i was going to refute you point by point, but have decided it's a better use of my time to smoke a cigarette.
time to get smokin' :-)
Posted on: 09 March 2009 by Adam Meredith
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Marchant:
You might think you can infer the creator's intent from a work of art, but you can't know and ultimately it's all projection.
I'm sorry for a fair number of members' feelings but this seems an entirely valid point/question.
You can have - "Let the music speak for itself" but if you seek to speak for the music it seems fair for readers to question what you say.
You are in a public forum and you will find that some chose to question things you say or quote "i cite t. m. greene's "the arts and the art of criticism", where it is established ...". It appears that it is NOT established but argued. Even those who have not read this argument can ask you - how is intent established?
Unless you can put forward a strong argument and win the house - you are speaking of taste, personal taste at that. Therefore - what is your choice of "the greatest single ...." and do you even find that you have one?
Posted on: 09 March 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Marchant:
You might think you can infer the creator's intent from a work of art, but you can't know and ultimately it's all projection.
I'm sorry for a fair number of members' feelings but this seems an entirely valid point/question.
You can have - "Let the music speak for itself" but if you seek to speak for the music it seems fair for readers to question what you say.
You are in a public forum and you will find that some chose to question things you say or quote "i cite t. m. greene's "the arts and the art of criticism", where it is established ...". It appears that it is NOT established but argued. Even those who have not read this argument can ask you - how is intent established?
Unless you can put forward a strong argument and win the house - you are speaking of taste, personal taste at that. Therefore - what is your choice of "the greatest single ...." and do you even find that you have one?
hi adam. let's take them in order :
the composer included a program in the score declaring his specific intent for each movement. i included that entire program in the first post. i maintain that the intention of the work is exactly what the composer states it is. i firmly believe that the author of a work can be taken at his word when he declares his intention in writing, in the body of the score. if you maintain that an author's specific and explicit statement of intent within a work is somehow bogus, i am totally at a loss as to how i can respond.
i am letting messiaen speak for himself. i would no more suggest an intent different than his explicitly stated notes than i would change the musical notes in the score.
t.m. greene's work is a standard text on criticism as it applies to the arts. you are right, in it he argues, but does not establish, that intent and social context influence the value of works of art. i accept his premise as a framework for discussion. please offer another if it doesn't suit you.
"how is intent established?" ---> the author clearly states his intention in a program included in the score. he is not the first to do so. i accept his stated intent without reservation. if you would like to read it, go to my first post. the entire program as stated by the author is there.
once again, as i stated in the first post, i nominate (not declare) messian's "quartet for the end of time" as the most profound and insightful work of the 20th century.
i invite readers of the forum to nominate other works.
so you don't have to read the first post again, here is the program provided by messiaen in the preface to the score. i have the score right here, and i can assure you that this is exactly what is printed in the score :
In a preface to the score, Messiaen commented on each of the movements:
1.
Liturgy of crystal. Between three and four o'clock in the morning, the awakening of the birds: a blackbird or a solo nightingale improvises, surrounded by efflorescent sound, by a halo of trills lost high in the trees...
2.
Vocalise, for the Angel who announces the end of Time. The first and third parts (very short) evoke the power of this mighty angel, a rainbow upon his head and clothed with a cloud, who sets one foot on the sea and one foot on the earth. In the middle section are the impalpable harmonies of heaven. In the piano, sweet cascades of blue-orange chords, enclosing in their distant chimes the almost plainchant song of the violin and violoncello.
3.
Abyss of the birds. Clarinet alone. The abyss is Time with its sadness, its weariness. The birds are the opposite to Time; they are our desire for light, for stars, for rainbows, and for jubilant songs.
4.
Interlude. Scherzo, of a more individual character than the other movements, but linked to them nevertheless by certain melodic recollections.
5.
Praise to the Eternity of Jesus. Jesus is considered here as the Word. A broad phrase, infinitely slow, on the violoncello, magnifies with love and reverence the eternity of the Word, powerful and gentle, ... "In the beginning was the Word, and Word was with God, and the Word was God."
6.
Dance of fury, for the seven trumpets. Rhythmically, the most characteristic piece in the series. The four instruments in unison take on the aspect of gongs and trumpets (the first six trumpets of the Apocalypse were followed by various catastrophes, the trumpet of the seventh angel announced the consummation of the mystery of God). Use of added [rhythmic] values, rhythms augmented or diminished... Music of stone, of formidable, sonorous granite...
7.
A mingling of rainbows for the Angel who announces the end of Time. Certain passages from the second movement recur here. The powerful angel appears, above all the rainbow that covers him... In my dreams I hear and see a catalogue of chords and melodies, familiar colours and forms... The swords of fire, these outpourings of blue-orange lava, these turbulent stars...
8.
Praise to the Immortality of Jesus. Expansive solo violin, counterpart to the violoncello solo of the fifth movement. Why this second encomium? It addresses more specifically the second aspect of Jesus, Jesus the Man, the Word made flesh... Its slow ascent toward the most extreme point of tension is the ascension of man toward his God, of the child of God toward his Father, of the being made divine toward Paradise.
Posted on: 09 March 2009 by King Size
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
once again, as i stated in the first post, i nominate (not declare) messian's "quartet for the end of time" as the most profound and insightful work of the 20th century.
i invite readers of the forum to nominate other works.
I did. It was ignored. I lost interest...
Posted on: 09 March 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by King Size:
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
once again, as i stated in the first post, i nominate (not declare) messian's "quartet for the end of time" as the most profound and insightful work of the 20th century.
i invite readers of the forum to nominate other works.
I did. It was ignored. I lost interest...
actually i have Talk Talk's 'Spirit of Eden'
on my buy list, along with every other piece nominated on this thread that i did not already own. i am using the nominations to take me out of my normal sphere of reference.
no one seconded me on the quartet for the end of time, but i am very interested in what kind of a list we'll end up with.
i had hoped the list would be 100 long, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.
too bad.
Posted on: 09 March 2009 by fred simon
quote:
Originally posted by King Size:
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
i invite readers of the forum to nominate other works.
I did. It was ignored. I lost interest...
It wasn't ignored. Fairly early in the thread I did nominate these works as among the greatest compositions of the 20th century:
Prokofiev -
Piano Concerto G minorShostakovich -
Symphony #11Ravel -
Piano Concerto in G majorRavel -
String QuartetDebussy -
String QuartetBerg -
Concerto for ViolinSteve Reich -
Music for Eighteen MusiciansStravinsky -
The Rite of SpringBartok -
Music for Strings, Percussion, and CelesteBest,
Fred
Posted on: 10 March 2009 by Adam Meredith
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
... i am letting messiaen speak for himself. i would no more suggest an intent different than his explicitly stated notes than i would change the musical notes in the score.
"how is intent established?" ---> the author clearly states his intention in a program included in the score. he is not the first to do so. i accept his stated intent without reservation.
so you don't have to read the first post again, here is the program provided by messiaen in the preface to the score. i have the score right here, and i can assure you that this is exactly what is printed in the score :
In a preface to the score, Messiaen commented on each of the movements:
1.Liturgy of crystal. Between three and four o'clock in the morning, the awakening of the birds: a blackbird or a solo nightingale improvises, surrounded by efflorescent sound, by a halo of trills lost high in the trees...
2.Vocalise, for the Angel who announces the end of Time. The first and third parts (very short) evoke the power of this mighty angel, a rainbow upon his head and clothed with a cloud, who sets one foot on the sea and one foot on the earth. In the middle section are the impalpable harmonies of heaven. In the piano, sweet cascades of blue-orange chords, enclosing in their distant chimes the almost plainchant song of the violin and violoncello.
3.Abyss of the birds. Clarinet alone. The abyss is Time with its sadness, its weariness. The birds are the opposite to Time; they are our desire for light, for stars, for rainbows, and for jubilant songs.
4.
5.Praise to the Eternity of Jesus. Jesus is considered here as the Word. A broad phrase, infinitely slow, on the violoncello, magnifies with love and reverence the eternity of the Word, powerful and gentle, ... "In the beginning was the Word, and Word was with God, and the Word was God."
6.Dance of fury, for the seven trumpets. Rhythmically, the most characteristic piece in the series. The four instruments in unison take on the aspect of gongs and trumpets (the first six trumpets of the Apocalypse were followed by various catastrophes, the trumpet of the seventh angel announced the consummation of the mystery of God). Use of added [rhythmic] values, rhythms augmented or diminished... Music of stone, of formidable, sonorous granite...
7.A mingling of rainbows for the Angel who announces the end of Time. Certain passages from the second movement recur here. The powerful angel appears, above all the rainbow that covers him... In my dreams I hear and see a catalogue of chords and melodies, familiar colours and forms... The swords of fire, these outpourings of blue-orange lava, these turbulent stars...
8.Praise to the Immortality of Jesus ... Its slow ascent toward the most extreme point of tension is the ascension of man toward his God, of the child of God toward his Father, of the being made divine toward Paradise.
Two brief points:
1: I hardly feel any the wiser -
this presentation/statement of "intent" is formed from (for me) impenetrable phrases "In the middle section are the
impalpable harmonies of heaven. In the piano, sweet cascades of blue-orange chords, - The abyss is Time with its sadness, its weariness. The birds are the opposite to Time" - etc. As such I find it impossible to grasp its intent - let alone apply it rigorously to the far less decodable medium of expression, music.
2: Is this written statement of intent, unseen, deducible from the music?
Does the music speak for itself and say exactly (
i would no more suggest an intent different than his explicitly stated notes than i would change the musical notes in the score) the above?
Or is that the music, the notes having been read, seems able in the listener's mind/opinion to live harmoniously with the stated intent?
I would not hazard any definitive analysis of intent for any piece of
music, I would be hard pressed to present an analysis of any piece of
writing which could be imposed upon another reader who had access to the original and their own set of research condiments.
I would find it impossible to 'explain' the above notes - as, in the main, they have no meaning for me and, where they do, I doubt that meaning has anything to do with Messiaen's intention.
(P.S.
For me - there's a BIG difference in "meaning" between the song of
a blackbird or a solo nightingale. It's a small and probably trite point - but...)
Posted on: 10 March 2009 by mikeeschman
i am so relieved that we have moved beyond me "making up" the program notes in the score, due to an excess of personal taste, and have acknowledged that messiaen himself did provide a literary program for the work, inscrutable as it may be.
when i started the thread, i thought it would turn out like a "the best ever ..." version of "what are you listening to right now". i hoped i would end up with a list of new works to obtain with at least a hundred entries in it. i didn't count on an extended debate. so it goes.
i can tell you how i assimilate messiaen's program notes into the experience of listening to "the quartet for the end of time". before dropping the needle, i meditate for a while (10 to 30 minutes). that meditation is focused on the program. i try to imagine how a person with a deep and unshakable faith would respond to the words of the program, how i would feel about the biblical coming of the end of time, if i were a devout catholic in a german concentration camp. actors do this sort of thing all the time in their training, or in preparing for a part - they nuture a "feeling" outside their personal experience, to better play a part.
the object of the mediation is to achieve a mental state that incorporates anticipation, dread and joy, because the long wait for Christ's return is eminent.
then i drop the needle.
please note that i am a lapsed Catholic, who studied theology for 12 years, as required by Catholic schools here in New Orleans. During that time i made the acquaintance of many ordinary people who had an unreasoned and unshakable faith in God, and a belief in miracles. that is what my mother was like, and i think that's what messiaen's fellow prisoners were like too. i think it's is all they had left to hang onto. that is the mindset i believe messiaen brings to all his music.
i can attest from personal experience, when these efforts at meditation succeed, the piece is illuminated in a way not possible otherwise. i think this synthesis of mediation and music has its roots in the intersection of messiaen's catholic faith and his study of hinduism.
it's my best approximation of realizing his stated intentions.
as messiaen says in his program "in my dreams" - he wants the listener to achieve a dreamlike state of grace. this state of grace is something catholic theologians write of frequently. they visualize grace as a property of being in harmony with God. it is a property possessed by people who are filled with God's goodness. it is definitely an abstract property, unattainable without faith.
it's a little different than performing an oxidation-reduction experiment.
i do something similar when i listen to berloiz's "symphonie Fantastique", but in a more literary fashion.
it's a lot of trouble to "act out" this piece as a listener. is it worth it? for me, yes.
Posted on: 10 March 2009 by Mat Cork
Mike, I've changed my mind, having seen what you're after. I recommend you read about and listen to Can's 'Tago Mago'. I think there may be much in there for you, you would otherwise miss. Sleevenote digestion essential.
Posted on: 11 March 2009 by DrMark
I'll second the earlier vote for FZ; the album "One Size Fits All" being my favorite selections.
Posted on: 11 March 2009 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
Originally posted by DrMark:
I'll second the earlier vote for FZ; the album "One Size Fits All" being my favorite selections.
I'd have gone for
We're Only In It For The Money, but FZ released lots of really good elpees - what about
The Grand Wazoo?
Still if we were asking for the best 3 minute pop song ever then the one that always comes to mind is
Save My Soul by Wimple Winch - it was the perfect pop record and yet wasn't even a hit.
ATB Rotf
Posted on: 13 March 2009 by Jeremy Marchant
quote:
Originally posted by King Size:
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
once again, as i stated in the first post, i nominate (not declare) messian's "quartet for the end of time" as the most profound and insightful work of the 20th century.
i invite readers of the forum to nominate other works.
I did. It was ignored. I lost interest...
So did I. So was mine. So I have, too.
Posted on: 13 March 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Marchant:
quote:
Originally posted by King Size:
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
once again, as i stated in the first post, i nominate (not declare) messian's "quartet for the end of time" as the most profound and insightful work of the 20th century.
i invite readers of the forum to nominate other works.
I did. It was ignored. I lost interest...
So did I. So was mine. So I have, too.
it's just not true. i check this thread three or four times a day, and i record any new nominations on my buy list. Stockhausen's Gruppen (1955-57) is going into my collection in april.
i spend about $200 a month on that buy list.
everything will get bought and heard. EVERYTHING.
but i just can't swallow it all in one shot.
once i've bought and listened, you'll hear back from me.
that's the best i can do.
just received tubular bells.
i'm headed upstairs right now to give it a spin.
it will get multiple spins.
this is a long term thread.
i hope others are doing the same.
and, by the way, thanks for the input.
Posted on: 14 March 2009 by FlyMe
I for one have just ordered the Messian quartet to hear what I have been missing!
Posted on: 14 March 2009 by Mat Cork
For my part Mike, I purchased your top 5 recommendations (the ones I didn't have) today...thanks.
Posted on: 14 March 2009 by JWM
Eleanor Rigby.
Posted on: 14 March 2009 by u5227470736789439
Octopus's Garden!
Three Wheels On My Wagon [and I'm still rollin' along,
Them Cherockees is after me ...]
Three Little Fishes [swam over the dam]
Lilly The Pink, [The saviour of the human race...]
Teddy Bears' Pick-nick ...
Homeward Bound, [I wish I was ...]
Take your pick!
ATB from George
Posted on: 14 March 2009 by mikeeschman
the thing i like best about this thread is finding out what other people listen to.
Posted on: 15 March 2009 by mikeeschman
Messiaen quartet for the end of time :
Liturgie de cristal
The opening movement begins with the solo clarinet imitating a blackbird's song, and the violin imitates a nightingale’s song. The underlying pulse is provided by the cello and piano: the cello repeats the same fifteen-note melody continuously, using only the notes C, E, D, F-sharp and B-flat. The piano part consists of a seventeen-note rhythm which is permuted strictly through twenty-nine chords, as if to give the listener a glimpse of something eternal.
Vocalise, pour l'Ange qui annonce la fin du Temps
The first and third parts (very short) evoke the power of this mighty angel, a rainbow upon his head and clothed with a cloud, who sets one foot on the sea and one foot on the earth. In the middle section are the impalpable harmonies of heaven. In the piano, sweet cascades of blue-orange chords, enclosing in their distant chimes the almost plainchant song of the violin and cello.
Abîme des oiseaux
A test for even the most accomplished clarinetist, with an extremely slow tempo marking quaver (eighth note) = 44.
Intermède
Scherzo, of a more individual character than the other movements, but linked to them nevertheless by certain melodic recollections.
Louange à l'Éternité de Jésus
Jesus is considered here as the Word. A broad phrase, "infinitely slow", on the cello, magnifies with love and reverence the eternity of the Word, powerful and gentle, "whose time never runs out". The melody stretches majestically into a kind of gentle, regal distance. "In the beginning was the Word, and Word was with God, and the Word was God."
The music is arranged from an earlier, unpublished piece, "Fêtes des belles eaux". The tempo marking is infiniment lent (literally "infinitely slowly").
An excerpt from Movement VI ("Danse de la fureur ..."), which is played by all four instruments in unison. It shows Messiaen's rhythmic technique, in which the underlying quavers (eighth notes) are alternately diminished to semiquavers (sixteenth notes) or augmented to dotted quavers.
Danse de la fureur, pour les sept trompettes
Rhythmically, the most characteristic piece of the series. The four instruments in unison imitate gongs and trumpets (the first six trumpets of the Apocalypse followed by various disasters, the trumpet of the seventh angel announcing consummation of the mystery of God) Use of added values, of augmented or diminished rhythms, of non-retrogradable rhythms. Music of stone, formidable granite sound; irresistible movement of steel, huge blocks of purple rage, icy drunkenness. Hear especially all the terrible fortissimo of the augmentation of the theme and changes of register of its different notes, towards the end of the piece.
The theme returns fortissimo in augmentation and with wide changes of register towards the end of the movement.
Fouillis d'arcs-en-ciel, pour l'Ange qui annonce la fin du Temps
Recurring here are certain passages from the second movement. The angel appears in full force, especially the rainbow that covers him (the rainbow, symbol of peace, wisdom, and all luminescent and sonorous vibration). - In my dreams, I hear and see ordered chords and melodies, known colors and shapes; then, after this transitional stage, I pass through the unreal and suffer, with ecstasy, a tournament; a roundabout compenetration of superhuman sounds and colors. These swords of fire, this blue-orange lava, these sudden stars: there is the tangle, there are the rainbows!
Louange à l'Immortalité de Jésus
Large violin solo, counterpart to the violoncello solo of the 5th movement. Why this second eulogy? It is especially aimed at second aspect of Jesus, Jesus the Man, the Word made flesh, immortally risen for our communication of his life. It is all love. Its slow ascent to the acutely extreme is the ascent of man to his god, the child of God to his Father, the being made divine towards Paradise.
The music is an arrangement of the second part of his earlier organ piece, "Diptyque", although raised in pitch by a major third from C to E.
Posted on: 15 March 2009 by Jeremy Marchant
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
i maintain that the intention of the work is exactly what the composer states it is. i firmly believe that the author of a work can be taken at his word when he declares his intention in writing, in the body of the score. if you maintain that an author's specific and explicit statement of intent within a work is somehow bogus, i am totally at a loss as to how i can respond.
No person can be sure of the full intention of
any of his or her own actions - whether purchasing an item of food in a shop or writing a piece of music - because - it is extremely widely believed - we all have an unconscious mind or, more strictly, we are unconscious of part of our mind, and it is likely that part of our intention arises there. This would seem to me to be particularly likely when creating a work of art.
If the composer, at the very least, cannot be sure he/she is aware of their full intention (because part of it might be (and probably is) unconscious and therefore, by definition, unavailable to his conscious mind); how much less sure can anyone else be, who is reading a written statement of intent, say, but refracting their perception of it through their own understandings, experiences and projections?
Did Stravinsky know his intent in writing The rite of spring? "I heard, and wrote what I heard. I am merely the vessel through which Le sacre passed" he wrote.
Few composers, surely, would want to be held, in perpetuity, to the Absolute Truth of their programme notes. Perhaps someone should research the consistency with which composers write about their music over time.
I do not maintain that an author's specific and explicit statement of intent within a work is "somehow bogus", because that implies some sort of deception, but I do say it is not to be relied upon - or even necessarily believed. You needn't be at a loss, though. Just carry on as you have been, documenting your opinions, which is the best any of us can do.
Posted on: 15 March 2009 by mikeeschman
for me, the first person account has primacy in a historical document. when a composer elects to declare his intention, and goes further by including that declaration in the work, it needs to be paid attention.
i think in the case of the quartet for the end of time, and in berlioz' symphonie fantastique, the written programs are particularly germane to the works.
unlike the rite of spring, their programs were not imposed by a third party.
this is certainly not always true. but sometimes the work carries its own baggage, and in those cases, the thoughts and feelings of the composer at the time of composition shed light on the music.
once the moment of creation has passed, the composer may be on the outside looking in, like the rest of us.
Posted on: 15 March 2009 by mikeeschman
the dead are what honest people look like.
no one achieves total honesty until they pass.
while you are alive, things can always change. after death, it's all a matter of the historical record.
the only way the dead, who have been and have known, can communicate directly with the living, is through the record of their lives, as it passed their lips and was writ by their hand.
this is true to varying degrees contingent on circumstance, but is no where more true than in music.
the first rule of music is to take what's given to heart.
Posted on: 15 March 2009 by JWM
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
no one achieves total honesty until they pass.
Indeed. As Nick Drake wrote/sang:
Fame is but a fruit tree
So very unsound.
It can never flourish
‘til its stock is in the ground
So men of fame
Can never find a way
‘til time has flown
Far from their dying day
Forgotten while you’re here
Remembered for a while
A much updated ruin
From a much outdated style.
James
Posted on: 15 March 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by Nobbyright:
Think of Swan Lake, look at the duck pond in your local park!
and i wouldn't compare the quartet for the end of time to any ballet. that would be apples to oranges.
i think you have to accept each work on its own terms.
otherwise, all you have is meaningless over generalization.
