OLD 250 v OLD 135x2

Hi Mike , i am 10 miles along the road in Carnoustie. I have 1998 135s passive. You are welcome to bring your 250 along and compare.

Regards
David

Dave,

Thanks for the very kind offer, I'm not sure if I can take you up on it any time soon as I'm in Paris, amp is at Naim (and I'm not due back in Dundee until the 28th of November (for a flying visit at that), but will certainly keep you in mind - many thanks

Can you PM me with your email address/tel number please ??

Thanks
Mike

You could sell your 250 for about a grand as it has just been serviced and a pair of good 135's will set you back about £1600.00 ish. Oh and before anyone jumps in with a conspiracy theory, I have a pair up for sale at £1600.00 but this is not a sales pitch.

You will notice good difernce. A pre amp will give you more musicality whereas a power amp will give more power to your speakers, making everything seem less effort. The sound will be bigger etc.

For the sake of about £600.00, it will be a big upgrade.

Regards

Mick

Hi Mick,

I know you by legend only here, and did spot your ad in the PFM. Out of interest, what age are they, and whats there service record (if appropriate).

I am trying to update my sistem to an 'Olive front' style all round, and would not be interested if yours are the old 'silver bumper' type (although judging by your asking price, this is not the case, oops, sorry about the pun).

Also of interest is packaging, I'm assuming that you have all original boxes etc.

Mike

Glad to see you accept that I am not pushing my 135's.

I bought them about a year ago because the silver edge have a "warmer" sound. They are 1986. They had a full Naim service October last year and a new transformer fitted last month because of a very slight hum. I will not sell anything to anyone that is less than 100%.

I have a set of new boxes, not the real originals.

Going back to your original question, a pair of 135's will give your speakers more clout for a fairly modest outlay. I would go for it.

Regards

Mick

Since Mick is definitely not trying to sell his 135's here I think a contrary view is order. Mike - your money would be much better spent at the other end. Either TT upgrades or a better CD player depending on which you listen to most - I can't sell you either.

Regards
Steve

Hello all

I also have seen the 135s on ebay. Nice! There are often 250s there too. As I am on an upgrading path, I wonder if maybe a pair of 135s could be too much of what I am looking for, compared to a single 250.
My sistem is CD2/72/140/IBLs. Before you now teach me, that a 140 is too weak for IBLs: I guess so. But I can listen to this sistem quite satisfied.
Different people told me that maybe 135s together with IBLs could sound too synthetic and too analytic. A 250 would be much better concerning general harmony. Have you any experience to share with an IBL fan. You can guess that I prefer the minimal solution (the half size 72 and 140 and small elegant IBLs) over sixpacks of 135s or anything like that.
And before you tell me I should get a Hicap for the 72 as soon as possible: Yes, I know! It is another Brick of the Road called Upgrade...

Regards
Casper

quote:

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Mike - your money would be much better spent at the other end. Either TT upgrades or a better CD player depending on which you listen to most.

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Steve, thanks for the advice which i'm sure is well founded, but the '135's thing' goes back to when I bought the 250 and wished I could have bought the 135's instead.

I was always of the opinion that the 135 was tops (which it was at the time in 1988) and for that reason I wanted to have 'the tops' to be certain that any failings in enjoyment of the music could be attributed to something other than the amp/pre-amp, a process of elimination if you like.

I'm also fairly certain that this would be my ultimate, or final upgrade on the amplification front since I'm a believer in what was good is still good.

Obviously Naim want to stay in business which inevitably means new models, but to be honest, what in the current range is REALLY better than the 135's (this should get a response !!)

I'm also quite happy with the front end, always loved the LP12, so I'm in that mould I'm afraid, only thing that remains (IMHO) is to upgrade the K9 to something better (suggestions welcome) and add a Hicap/Snaps at some stage (I'm running the CD3.5 native).

Mick, thanks for the advice, I'm not interested in yours as they are the old style case. I'm still in the 'considering it' stage on a pair on Ebay, as this is a lot of money we're talking about (especially since I'm forking out nearly £500 on the 250 for the service and cosmetic upgrade).

Ah well, to upgrade or not upgrade, that is the question ......

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by mangold3000:
Hello all

I also have seen the 135s on ebay. Nice! There are often 250s there too. As I am on an upgrading path, I wonder if maybe a pair of 135s could be too much of what I am looking for, compared to a single 250.
My sistem is CD2/72/140/IBLs. Before you now teach me, that a 140 is too weak for IBLs: I guess so. But I can listen to this sistem quite satisfied.
Different people told me that maybe 135s together with IBLs could sound too synthetic and too analytic. A 250 would be much better concerning general harmony. Have you any experience to share with an IBL fan. You can guess that I prefer the minimal solution (the half size 72 and 140 and small elegant IBLs) over sixpacks of 135s or anything like that.
And before you tell me I should get a Hicap for the 72 as soon as possible: Yes, I know! It is another Brick of the Road called Upgrade...

Regards
Casper

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Hi Casper, did'nt mean to miss you out of the reply, just thought it was a slightly different context.

I started out with a Nait/Kans, then went on to a 62/140, and finally to where I am now with the 72/250. I'd have to say that the upgrade from 140 to 250 was significant although I also purchased SBL's at the same time, so it was masked somewhat by this fact (IMHO).

I've heard the IBL's with a 140, they are nice but obviously different to the SBL's which in my opinion are hard to beat at any price. I would say that you have a nicely matched system there, everything at about the same level, if you upgrade to a 250, you will certainly need a Hicap (or Snaps if you can get hold of one) since the 250 cannot power your 72.

I's also say that the 250 will reveal your IBL's to be a little light on the base front, so the 250 upgrade could be a blessing or a curse - depending on how you look at it ....

Either way, watch this space, there could be an olive fronted 250 up for grabs soon ...

Cheers
Mike

You have a fairly well balanced system, any upgrade be it at the front, middle or end will high light weaknesses until you arrive at the next balanced system.

If you are basically happy with the sound, stick with what you have got and make sure that any old stuff has been recently serviced by Naim. That does make a difference.

If you you decide to upgrade, I would add a hicap to the 72 (buy a old one and get it serviced)which will give your system a boost and then go for a 82 and then a pair of 135's.

Buying 135's will give you a benefit but it will be a poor return for each pound spent. Naim always responds best to the source first philosophy.

Regards

Mick

Mike

I think I understand where you are coming from and it's your ears and your money after all. Adding 135's will give you more depth and weight with a little more resolution without fundamentally changing the character of the sound you are getting. That said, I still think it's worth making the effort to hear a better front end and/or preamp in your system, I'm fairly confident that you would be rather surprised and change your viewpoint somewhat. A few years ago when I was using an 82/SC I had a 52, 135's and a Fraim for home dem at the same time. I could only afford/justify one, maybe two of the three. I bought the 52 and Fraim, the 135's went back.

In any case, I would wait until you get your 250 back from service and powered up for a week. This alone may give you what you are looking for.

Regards
Steve

Mike
Mick

Tanks for reply. That you both mention that my sistem is quite balanced at the moment corresponds to the fun I have listening at it.
Otherwise one always wonders what could be better. Before now I considered an upgrading step in power amplifiation. Your comments may change my opinion to looking for a Hicap and spending the rest of the money in CDs because giving the beloved speedy IBLs away (e.g. for SBLs) is out of the question.
I did not want to direct this topic to somewhere different so I am curious if others comment their 135/250 experience...
Have a nice evening (with some nice music).

Reards
Casper

Mike--

There is no doubt that 135s are better than a 250. However, in your system as it is presently constituted they would be wasted.

I understand all about the "I wish I had bought this years ago..." thing but putting the money towards an 82 or 52 would give a VASTLY greater improvement. And I owned, lived with, and loved a 72/Hicap/250 combo for years, so it's not a case of my dissing the 72 at all. Put it this way--a 52/250 absolutely destroys a 72/Hi/135 system. So does an 82/Hi/250--the better preamp opens a much wider window into the music and provides much better grip.

In fact, what you should REALLY do is to upgrade your sources--get thee an Aro/Geddon/CDX/S1/etc and a pair of inexpensive speakers--Helix 2s, Kabers, etc. Your proposed system would be a (almost) classic mullet and won't satisfy you long term.

Best,

Bob

Hello,

as everybody I bought some 135s to upgrade from my 250 - and sold them again (not like everybody).
The 250 is from 1998, the NAPs were from 1993 (?Ser.Nr.8XXXXX). The improvement was too low in my chain AT OC9,Thorens 3001,Prefix,NAC52/SC/.../DBL to justify double price and as the buyer of my DBLs wanted some 135s I sold them again. So probably the vintage of the NAPs is important too.
Anyway I bought some very old 135s (SNR.1XXXX) whom I will get hopefully for Chrismas. If there is interest, I may tell you again about the comarrison. Now I am bying them for my second chain (42.5, SNAIC or Hicap).
You were asking for an upgrade to your K9
I have one still in usage for my MM-system - not from LINN but from Audiotechnica (AT 450 OCC). I upgraded to Audiotechnica OC-9 (MC-system)and think the improvement on details and highst worth it. Try to listen to one to see if it suits your way of listening.
I am still trying to by my equipment after my ears. And I think it very important not to forget how people listen to what sort of music.
My focus is string chamber music as close to reality as possible. For that I need very good high frequencies reproduction and much details.
If you want a lot of bass. The OC-09 is not the ultimate system.
Have fun listening to your music.

quote:

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Originally posted by MJSM:
LP12/Ittok LVII/K9/CD3.5/72/250

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MJ,

you must be missing out on a SNAPS/FlatCap/HiCap from your description. 72/250 will not work without it. Ditto for 72 & 135s.

E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.

Mike - I have never had a 250, (so I as always don't know what I'm talking about,) but the reasoning behind getting 135's comes from wanting them from a long time ago, which is not really a sound basis for purchase. If however you are looking to buy a stonking amp that is fully serviced and ready to do battle at the NAP300 level for a bargain price, for probably a very long time in your system, then just go out and get them. I did - and I never compared them to anything. I had never even heard 135's before. I bought them for £1150 and then spent £440 on a full service.
I had a 160, and that did me for 10 years. These guys will last me until I win the lottery, because I can't imagine anything better. £1600? Just get em.

Further to Bob Edwards great advice...yes,
although in MOST ways the 135 is quite
beyond the 250, the soutce really is where
your money should be going, then preamp,
LAST...amp...with speakers that please you...
only spending real money for speakers when
all the preceding is well done. For what it is
worth, having owned the 250...on all measures
of amp performance, the 135 is better, BUT if
listening principally to classical music, I
found the 250 to be harmonically more complete.
Do spend you time and effort to improve things
earlier up the chain.
Scottt

quote:

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Originally posted by MJSM:
[...]
I was always of the opinion that the 135 was tops (which it was at the time in 1988) and for that reason I wanted to have 'the tops' to be certain that any failings in enjoyment of the music could be attributed to something other than the amp/pre-amp, a process of elimination if you like.
[...]
I'm also quite happy with the front end, always loved the LP12, so I'm in that mould I'm afraid, only thing that remains (IMHO) is to upgrade the K9 to something better (suggestions welcome) ...
[...]
Mike

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Hello Mike,
your 'opinion that the 135 was tops' and your 'process of elimination' must fail since the new amps
exist (NAP 250-new, NAP300 and of course the 500), so you have to dream of a NAP 500 in future :-)

If you want to upgrade your K9 in a balanced level, you should look for the new LINN Adikt:
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_print.asp?ID=2507

It is quite cheap and should be better than the formerly LINN K18II ...

Reards,
Hannes

quote:

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Originally posted by Mick Parry:
I bought them about a year ago because the silver edge have a "warmer" sound. They are 1986. They had a full Naim service October last year and a new transformer fitted last month because of a very slight hum. I will not sell anything to anyone that is less than 100%.

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Mick,

didn't you have one of the pair of transformers replaced?

Did they manage to source you an old Holden & Fisher unit?

Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.