HDX rip better than iTunes rip?

there may be a link between the ripping and the way it is reproduced, hence the differences, bit like an LP sounds different depending what you play it on.

However as has been said, I suggest you listen to the various options, and then buy it, and happy listening. As always with audio it is personal choice, and all the debates and theories don't change that fact

Barrie

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):

quote:

Originally posted by paremus:

If the data is the same - then it sounds the same play through the same digital audio chain.

No it doesn't.

I have copied this and with a very brief explanation, sent it to 5 colleagues whose livelihood more or less depends on the accurate transfer of audio data. Two in Berlin, one in Detroit one in Japan and another I am not sure where they are this weekend.

I have heard back from three so far

1 " LOL where did you see this ?! "

2 " whatever is playing the two back might be messed up, if it is deciding to play every other file back dif , both bit-perfect right ... but that would be strange - or if you did a few shots and waited a few mins in between listening to both-could be simple psychology "

3 " if data is same but sound not same, machine is playing wrong "

I actually really want to hear from one of the other two but they might not be bothered but I will post the replies if and when I get them.

I did not say where I got this (the original quotes ) from or any names, just said on a recording forum. Two bit-perfect files,same player.

interesting, and myself, absolutely no offense what so ever Gary(us), strongly disagree with your response, yet there may be some unknown variable we may discover though, and hopefully will

atb

10010010101111

No offense taken.

As I said I have no technical expertise in this area, but the musical differences were there. No wishful thinking.

Harold, I agree with you conceptually and find that when I transfer a file back and forth between drives that it sounds the same when played from that original drive though the data has been moved twice. I don't get that with CD rips from different ripping engines and as I said, I don't know why. There appears to more going on than just data transfer.

Gary1(us), cool, sometimes it is very easy on forums to come across the wrong way when not meaning to at all.

JS , yes I am starting to think that there may in fact be something else going on than perfect bits and if all of us can discover anything, or even half of it, it would be beneficial for everyone, whatever side of the fence one is on, that would be great.

I belong to a mailing list in which, quite often some very well respected audio and mastering engineers as well as some famous reviewers pop up and answer all kinds of questions. Most of it extremely technical and way over my head, but i have learned many things over the past few years, some things that changed my position on certain matters actually. It would be interesting if I posted the problem as simply as possible, without mentioning this forum, in order to get some good un-biased technical responses.

Id like to do this, so perhaps if we can all agree to the wording of the question, i'll throw it out there. And if any of you actually want to see the responses you could join the list yourselves,....and then leave the list unless you want 20 emails a day dealing with things like " how many centimeters apart for these two mics, at this church, here are the demensions..... string quartet with gong...etc etc and other threads that are so technical it seems another language ! Could get some interesting (and valuable) responses though.....

regards

Hope you get some good feedback. Generally, those guys aren't very involved on this side of the equation but you never know. By the way, the shops Itunes is set up for error correction on reads. Maybe I'll try it without and see what happens but good discs shouldn't be affected.

js, and perhaps try different burning speeds, slowest may take a while though....

Seems that only trade members believe that HDX rips are better.

DHT

Why don't you just come out and accuse them of financial bias directly instead of using innuendo?

Have you done the detailed comparisons yourself? I haven't and can't personally comment but it would be great to hear your detailed analysis and methodology and conclusions.

Jim

I never said the HDX was better than properly setup EAC etc. It's not about the HDX. I was using Wavelab for rips before I knew of EAC because I wasn't happy with media player rips in general, any of them. I've said that EAC and some others can do a great job. It's just easier and more organized with an HDX, like a good media player rip but with EAC like results. This opinion was formed before the HDX ever saw the light of day and it wasn't for storing a library but for transfers. We're involved at both ends of reproduction and have always been very concerned with not losing music through transfers of various types. I'm off of this thread now as I don't want to participate in trading barbs or in the challenging of character. Believe whatever you need to, DHT.

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
Seems that only trade members believe that HDX rips are better.

I am not a trade member and HDX rips were better than itune rips. ( haven't tried PC rips against the HDX but my past experiments indiacated that properly set up PC rips were better than my iTunes rip )

This was 4 years ago, however.

hi Kuma, iTunes is now at version 8, and quite a few things happened audio quality wise in between version 4, 4 years ago and now. ( version 6 to 7 to 8 was big )

I'm getting tipsy


did you ever find those Nait3.....R pics?

js

No need to let one attempt to cast doubts on your motives or character stop you participating in this thread. You always provide a balanced view and although my own experiences don't fully mirror yours I am prepared to keep an open mind.

Cheers

Jim

don't leave Js, this thread may have moved away from the HDX into general ripping but, like myself there may be many people which are considering and exited by a Naim dac, more than an HDX, which means the results and info we all find will be very important and helpful as some who read, but do not post, may be about to start ripping for the first time or are about to. If only one person who may be concerned, has learned that they can use something like XLD to address the "offset" problem on their Mac, that alone makes this thread worth it. ( wether or not they can actually hear it however....)

Ok saturday has begun and the Nait is winking at me

quote:

Originally posted by haroldbudd:
hi Kuma, iTunes is now at version 8, and quite a few things happened audio quality wise in between version 4, 4 years ago and now. ( version 6 to 7 to 8 was big )

I know but a comparison to the HDX rip and itunes rip were using MacBook Pro.
So, I figured that results didn't change in 4 years.

I just got a new unibody MacBook Pro which is what?
A verion 8.0.2?

I sort of gave up on it 4 years ago as PC rips were so cumbersome and figured the itunes will improve over time. I prefer to use an Itunes becaue its user interface is so much better.

It's interesting to see the same debate 4 years later, tho.

p.s. I'm afraid my Nait 3R pix are gone.

Whatever the trade members do or don't believe, it does appear to be the case that those who believe that HDX rips are better don't have a shred of objective evidence to support their point of view.

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:

quote:

Originally posted by haroldbudd:
hi Kuma, iTunes is now at version 8, and quite a few things happened audio quality wise in between version 4, 4 years ago and now. ( version 6 to 7 to 8 was big )

I know but a comparison to the HDX rip and itunes rip were using MacBook Pro.
So, I figured that results didn't change in 4 years.

I just got a new unibody MacBook Pro which is what?
A verion 8.0.2?

I sort of gave up on it 4 years ago as PC rips were so cumbersome and figured the itunes will improve over time. I prefer to use an Itunes becaue its user interface is so much better.

It's interesting to see the same debate 4 years later, tho.

p.s. I'm afraid my Nait 3R pix are gone.

I just got a maxed out unibody MBpro also ! ( if you think the click on the pad is stiff, just change it to "tap to click" in your system pref's, and practice the finger movements on the touch pad, after a few days you will never use a mouse again...) but back on topic.... if you are bored one day, install XLD ( a tutorial was posted earlier on this thread ) and compare a "rip" with that and with iTunes (error correction on) From what I have read in your posts on many subjects you seam to have a good ear, or two.

back off topic, my girlfriend recently got a Lieca digital , but I have no clue how to use it, so I might consult you before I start a " Nait 3 pics' thread. The lens is apparently quite good on it, "garbage in -garbage out" right? It is the parts in the middle I am bad at, the manipulation and transfer of the raw image............ which brings us back to ..

I am opening another Rioja. In the future, hopefully soon, I can download a good coffee... and hopefully only a bit or two will be missing so it should taste close enough..

atb

jazzfan,

There is often little or no "objective evidence" for why reproduced music sounds better or worse - which is of course subjective or perceptive evidence. Yet most of us would agree about some perceptual improvements in music which result from "tweaks" such as cable dressing, fraim racks, circuit boards on brass plates, fragile highline connectors, etc.

No offense intended. I just find many things in audio go beyond what average people would find "reasonable" and often can not be justified by objective measurements or even plausible scientific explanations. I dare say one encounters these things more often on this forum than many other places.

js,

I have appreciated your helpful and often informative posts. I also appreciate any trade menbers who share their knowledge on this forum - a valuable information resource. I do not always find my own experiences in agreement. But in general, I "listen and take notes." I do not have the opportunity and experience that I expect trade members would have in working with and listening to audio equipment as a full time job.

This is a very technical and challenging subject with even the most experienced and knowledgeable professionals disagreeing, not to mention the odd scientist. That said, I think there is a layman’s approach to ensuring they get the best from a system and avoid any marketing snake oil laid to confuse or even mislead you.

Firstly, I think in essence we all agree it’s more than possibly to rip a perfect copy using the right software. It might not be straightforward and very dependent upon the drive and software used, but there’s no reason why a PC/Mac/HDX cannot make a bit perfect copy all being the disk is in good condition. Actually, if the disk is slightly damaged, it might even be advantages to multi-read, rip and re-write to DVD/CD to ensure the film or music plays correctly.

However, the moment you add TIME to the equation nothing is a bit perfect transfer. We know that a data file (word document etc) can be stored perfectly on floppy, CD, USB Stick, Hard Drive, External Drive or even transferred wirelessly between devices and copied a thousand times without any Chinese whisper degradation, but the time to retrieve this information various enormously. As is the design of audio CD.

So I think the question, is not so much is the data ‘bit perfect’, but rather how timely is the transfer, what interface is used and how much buffering or jitter controls are present at the DAC? Now, that I can hear!

spot on CharlieP, completely agree, and PMR , that was very good also.

I heard back from # 4 ( in reference to an earlier post I made ) and I really wanted to hear back from this person as he is one of those people who is always to the point, and always right. As expected, his reply was brilliant.

" 10101010101010101

10101010101010101

if these appear any differently to you , then your screen is messed up, or your computer is messed up, or you are messed up. Don't waste your time with that kinda S%$t "

quote:

Originally posted by CharlieP:
jazzfan,

There is often little or no "objective evidence" for why reproduced music sounds better or worse.....

I agree, but I think what we are debating here (or at any rate, the issue that is of interest to me) is not whether non iTunes rips (e.g. EAC or HDX rips) sound better than those from iTunes but whether they are different. Since these rips are computer files, this is a question that can be answered objectively. Mr. Poon has conducted (what seems to me to be a pretty thorough set of) objective experiments to show that iTunes is capable of producing rips that are identical (byte for byte) to those from EAC and other leading rippers. It seems to me that the only effective way to counter this evidence is by citing an equally objective and scientific study and not by simply claiming "trust us", etc.

Those who (like me) have had some mathematical training (or training in some of the other hard sciences) will know that the beauty of these disciplines is that there is no room for subjectivity and those who try to rely on such arguments are quickly dismissed. This topic is one that (IMV) lends itself to the same treatment.

quote:

Originally posted by haroldbudd:
back off topic, my girlfriend recently got a Lieca digital

Bit imperfect copy?

I also have had mathematical training. As an engineer, I work with vibration measurement and instrumentation. I even was paid for a while to design and measure loudspeakers. I remain humbled by the challenges of music reproduction.

It is easy to abstract the notion of "digital" data storage and retrieval, and to believe that music in a file is "bit perfect." I frankly do not understand what are the issues. But in my limited experience I find there are subtleties which go beyond the obvious. I feel we should listen to people's experiences with an open mind, and I look forward to when this is understood further. (or at least when I understand further. Maybe some have a handle on it, but they are keeping mum...)

Charlie

quote:

" 10101010101010101

10101010101010101

if these appear any differently to you , then your screen is messed up, or your computer is messed up, or you are messed up. Don't waste your time with that kinda S%$t "

I think he has a point ....