A mess.

I have no intentions of changing anything downstream of the pre-amp.

Forget about what's around the corner, you'll still own all those LP's and CD's and you'll still probably want to listen to them, won't you.

It does sound like the pre-amp needs sorting out given its crackly pot but, as you know, any major improvement here before you address the CD will potentially reveal the shortcomings of your CD4SE and render it unlistenable.

Don't get paranoid about the arms, there are too many decks out that that have yet to be equipped with an ARO for Naim to stop making them just yet and in any case there will always be a steady second hand market. Incidentally, have you demo'd the ARO against an EKOS? If not, do it before you decide to replace the Akito as you might change your mind. Either will offer you a dramatic improvement.

Likewise, have you listened to the Naim CD range against the equivalent Linn? Whilst I'd love to own a full-house CDS2 if funds and domestic harmony permitted, at the price I could afford, I preferred the Ikemi to a 'plain' CDX. Whilst that may be a bit of an unpopular decision here, the point is that you should at least take the time to listen for yourself before making up your mind. Don't just buy Naim gear because it looks the same.

As far as the pre-amp is concerened and given your aesthetic requirements I'd be inclined to go for a 72. It'll comfortably handle the front end upgrades and can be bought for reasonable money on the s/h market.

You haven't mentioned what your actual budget is but I'd be inclined to:

Audition Ekos/ARO

Audition CD5/Genki and CDX/Ikemi

Decide which suits you best and buy either the arm or CD player first based upon whichever is your preferred/most listened to source.

Upgrade the preamp.

Relax and enjoy - after all you've already got some great kit.

Let us know how you get on.

Dave J

I haven't auditioned any of the combo's you suggest.

I should ultimately get a top notch CD player like the CDX/Ikemi but my thought's constantly return to the LP12 which has formed the bedrock of my HiFi interest and system from the start. In some ways I find this frustrating as CD is so pervasive and I feel I should really 'move on'.

I am trying to get my thoughts together before I go back to Grahams to collect my NAP/HiCAP from service. They suggested if I wanted to audition anything at that time then they would be happy to do some demos.

Regarding the current equipent - yes it's very good. For some time I made do without the Hicap and just spent the money on CD's - I am not a habitual upgrader - I just enjoyed the music.

A recent move to London has put most of my equipment into storage so I felt it was a good time to take stock, service and upgrade as required before it re-emerges in a blaze of glory.

John.

[This message was edited by John Bailey on SUNDAY 20 January 2002 at 15:39.]

[This message was edited by John Bailey on SUNDAY 20 January 2002 at 15:40.]

Stay firmly in the 2nd hand market. You are at an interim stage, with limited funds. You will recover a bigger proportion of your money when you do move on again, and you will be able to get a better sound now.

The 42 is the weak link in the amp department.
Improving it will also improve BOTH the LPs AND the CDs. A 32.5 with late boards will sound almost as good as a 72. It will also cost a fraction of the price. Budget £100 over the income from your 42.

Pound for pound, LP kit still sounds better than CD You will have to spend a fortune on a CD player to get one that sounds better than your LP12 system. OTOH, unless your CD player sounds good, you will stop buying CDs and hence stop buying new music. Recognise this dilema. Consider a 2nd hand cdI or cd2. Budget £600 (IMHO the cdI is better, and usually cheaper cause they're older!)

Upgrade the LP12 Don't let that collection of LPs gather dust. Find a 2nd hand Itok and the best cartridge possible with the balance. Don't bother with the Circus but do get Grahams to service your LP12. Budget £500 for the Itok and £50 for the service/set-up. This should leave £250 for a cartridge and contingency.

Buy from Grahams You could buy the 32.5 almost anywhere without worrying, but buy the CD player, arm and cartridge from a reputable dealer after making sure he has carefully inspected them for you.

Cheers

Don

quote:

---

I have resisted servicing the preamp (which has a crackly volume pot) mainly due to the limited inputs and performance for future equipment and it’s low “market value to service cost” ratio. I could be in error here perhaps – any views?

---

Your 42(-5) may need comprehensive service (all tants/electrolytics + volume pot, have sockets checked/cleaned etc.); this may not be terribly expensive, but the problem remains that 42 preamps do not gain value at this point--therefore, it may not be terribly cost-effective to use this as a trade-in. (Think of it as a freebie at this point, good for a second system.)

The NAC 112 / FLATCAP 2 combination represents good VFM inasmuch as the FLATCAP 2 can power two units simultaneously, and the NAC 112 has fantastic facilities for future plans. The 112 could be used with the HICAP, and the FLATCAP 2 could be used for the phono stage.

Given that the 32 represents a marginal improvement to a serviced 42, I'd set that aside an an option anyway.

Spinning out the phono stage (e.g., Stageline N for Blue Point Special or other high-output MC/MM) will improve matters even with the 42-based setup, so that this might be worth considering, even with an Akito.

This has the potential for leaving you with two systems (barring a power amp and second set of speakers), which is a better long-term proposition with older gear vis-a-vis your trade-in allowances, anyway. Just an observation...

Dave Dever

I would start with the LP12. First, get thee an Armageddon. It is a dramatic upgrade. Second, get a second hand Ittok--substantial improvement over the Akito 1 (I know--I did it years ago). Next, get a new cartridge--a Dyna, Goldring, Linn K9, Rega, whatever.

Second, do the CD player--try CD5/CDX if new or CDI/CD2 used.

Finally, upgrade the preamp to 72 or better.

Cheers,

Bob

A couple of years ago I was roughly where you are today on the vinyl front - Valhalla/Circus/Akito/K9 into 42.5/Snaps/250 and Kan1's. All kit on a pair of 2 tier sound org stands. I've spent quite a bit more than your budget but this might help you work out the best bang for your buck.

1. Replaced 42.5 with 82/Supercap - Huge improvement - my biggest upgrade ever but it should be for £4.5k

2. Replaced Akito with ARO/17D2 after considering Ekos and a rebuilt Troika (both good but not as good a match with my priorities). This was a bigger improvement than Nait1 -> 42.5/250 but not the jaw dropping experience of the 82/SC. (£1.8k ish)

3. Put the LP12 on it's own pile of phase4 Mana. Another jaw dropping experience. Not as big as the 82 but in the same league and definitely the best value. (£850ish new, £350 s/h).

I probably got more from the Mana because I had done 1&2 but if I had my time again I would definitely do it first. There is lots of debate over stands under electronics but nobody on this forum has anything but good to say about it under an LP12. Clearly, this is what I suggest you do. I would also recommend a Cirkus upgrade which gets you a full LP12 service thrown in for free. If you can get the Mana second hand, you should have enough of your budget left to get a better CD player as well.

Regards
Steve

If you're looking for a long term build-up, I would go for an Ekos arm.
Then Armageddon.
I would sooner buy second hand Naim component, get it serviced, than buy a second hand mechanical component like an arm.
Ekos/Armageddon would give you an excellent source to build on. Also last for 20+years.

For the price of a brand new NAC you could likely get your 42-5 serviced, an Ittok for your Sondek and a CDI or CD2 without going over your budget.

With your sources sorted, wouldn't you then be in a much better position to consider the merits of middle upgrades?

Craig

Upgrading to a cdx/cdi or other naim player would be a wonderful option but the preamp is, in my opinion, more urgent and you should still get plenty of music out of your existing player.

Good luck on the fun choice ahead of you!!

Markus

Now that we know your budget, Don's advice is sound. With your budget you could make substantial improvements in every area and, given that you may not be making any other changes in the forseeable future, will give you real value for money as well. On the CD front, I'd also add a later Karik as an option.

You've already found a good dealer in Grahams and it won't hurt to have a listen to whatever options they can make available. It could at least clarify your long term direction.

Best of luck

Dave J

I am running exactly your LP12 combo right now (into 32-5/140 as a second system), but an Ittok is another large, cheap upgrade. It might be easier to buy a deck already with Ittok and flog yours than to buy the arm and sell the Akito. Either way, it shouldn't cost too much to do. You might also consider a new cartridge. The question is if you wish to continue buying lps, because if you don't I'd say forget upgrading the LP12 and put your money in a better cd player.

Finally, you definitely need a better cd player. CD players cost too much for the sound they give--so you should determine which deal with the devil you are willing to make. A CDS is worth it, I'm not sure if anything else really is (and I run a CD5).

--Eric

I think that my first priority is to sort out the CD front end. Whilst I realise that the LP12 will almost certainly be superior to anything I can spend on this format, the reality remains that most of my new software purchases are going to be on CD and I want my music to be an on-going interest. To this end I intend comparing a second hand CD2 with a new CD5 possibly with a Flatcap2. I expect that the CD2 would be superior to the bare bones CD5 but age and serviceability are considerations here. A CDX would be nice but out of my budget and a CDX + XPS certainly is!

Next the pre-amp. I think a NAC72 will offer best value but possibly a 112 or second hand 82 might be an option if funds allow after recovering from the CD investment. I have yet to read or hear a bad thing about the 82 so perhaps that is something to aim for in the longer term though I have no intentions of getting a Super Cap. I always have the option of re-casing my current HiCAP/NAP combo if aesthetics are really important.

Anything left from the budget will be spent on (initially) a new cartridge for the LP12 and eventually a replacement arm if and when funds allow. The LP12 is pretty good as it is compared to a CD after all……

John.

Though I live in London I work in Reading and this lunchtime decided to pop into Audio-T to see if they had any second hand Naim CD2’s etc..

They were very helpful and encouraged me to come in and demo a CD5 or CDX so that I would have a bit more of an idea ‘where I was going’.

They also suggested another option – a Chord DAC64 – which they consider blows everything else away – including the CDS II – which is “a formidable machine”. We got into a bit of a discussion about it and both the chaps in the shop had Naim systems of CDS/52 etc calibre.

It was quite un-pressured and friendly and I was pleased by their approach - they urged me to bring in my old CD4SE and give it a spin with the Chord against the Naim machines to see what I thought.

OK. I realise the CDX and Chord are over my budget but as they said – if you know where you are going you can save up!

Any thoughts or experiences with this DAC?